Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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TheRedArcher
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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 22nd, 2009, 6:28 am

Kikuchi wrote:The record only accounts which exist. As in, maybe in other universes Arthur doesn't exist at all. But if assuming Arthur exists, then it would be a female instead of a male.
So which of Shirou's futures exist as Archer? Will only one of Shirou's timelines reach Archer? If Shirou (Fate) and Shirou (UBW) become Archers, don't they both exist? Then it brings back to the problems I had in my last post. FSN already shows us that there are infinite parallel universes, thus, infinite possibilities. That means there are definitely going to be two to Infinity Archers. Even if Alaya recorded the ones closest to their universe (let's just say... 1000 universes closest to theirs), there are still going to be at least two Archers. I find it hard to believe that Shirou's chances at being a counter guardian are 1 out of 1 million universes.
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Unread post by Ryougi07 » March 22nd, 2009, 5:41 pm

I think I'm straying from the topic, but I just gotta ask.

Wasn't the UBW Shirou supposed to have a low chance of being Archer(due to Rin)? So doesn't that mean that we should only count the Fate Shirou? Or does the UBW Shirou wtill count even with his low chances?
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 22nd, 2009, 11:34 pm

Well Shirou did manage to use Archer's Reality Marble in that storyline. So that means even though he might not do anything stupid unless Rin tells him too he has a high change of becoming Archer since that is his reality mable after all. Although it wouldn't matter which UBW ending it was it would mean that he becomes Archer in a different way.
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 25th, 2009, 2:39 am

It was not the reality marble that turned EMIYA into a counter guardian, it was the World Pact. As long as he does not make the pact with the world, even if all the tragedies happen, he will still die a human and not a counter guardian. Basically, in order to become Archer, EMIYA needs to make the pact.

The reason that many argued that UBW Shirou has a low chance of becoming Archer was that he has seen Archer's path, thus there is a good chance that he can avoid that path and eventually not making the pact to become a counter guardian. Also, the VN suggested that the presence of Rin may divert UBW Shirou from Archer's path.

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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 25th, 2009, 3:06 am

Even so if he found out that he will become Archer he will become him. I think once he did the chant for UBW it olny means that he is willing to accept the pact with the world even if he didn't want to. I mean by obtaining Archer's Reality Marble before he even made a pact with the world would me that becoming a Master was the rite used to create that said pact with the world. At least that's my idea on the matter of course.
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 25th, 2009, 3:11 am

Check your grammar and use punctuation please, I am having a hard time understanding you.

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Unread post by Soulshade » March 25th, 2009, 4:28 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:Well Shirou did manage to use Archer's Reality Marble in that storyline. So that means even though he might not do anything stupid unless Rin tells him too he has a high change of becoming Archer since that is his reality mable after all. Although it wouldn't matter which UBW ending it was it would mean that he becomes Archer in a different way.
Shirou didnt use archers UBW, he used his own, hence his own verse of UBW and the background difference between their UBW. Also rin didnt tell shirou that he will become archer just cause he can do a RM. all she told him is that its the pinnacle of his tracing/projection skills. it doesnt mean he'll become archer because of UBW

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Unread post by Chaos Chaud » March 27th, 2009, 8:24 pm

Also in the VN was mentioned that the reality marble was the only magic Shirou could use from the start, and the strengthenig and projection were only a byproduct of it. I understand that the "form the start" part means it is the magic his magic circuit exists for, and not that it was a world pact granted power...

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 28th, 2009, 12:48 am

The Reality Marble was there since day one. Shirou just learned how to materialize it from Archer. All in all EMIYA is just an unorthodox servant who really doesn't belong in any class. Although he is squeezed into the Archer class, his bow is not a Noble Phantasm; he prefers to fight with swords; he is well versed in traditional sorcery; and his tramp card is a bounded field that mere mortals should not have access to.

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Unread post by BlackTornado » March 28th, 2009, 3:40 am

back to the NLBW... my interpretation is that shirou traced the np which can be expressed as a technique; ie striking very fast. he did not trace any attributes. He can download the history behind the np to allow him to know how best to use the weapon, but not give him the strength agility, etc of whoever used the np. U cannot expect shirou to trace excalibur and become Saber, even temporally. He will still be Shirou, with a powerful weapon but lousy stats, that's all. NLBW is no different, tracing it allows Shirou to use the NP which is striking very fast, not the strength that Berserker has.

So no, Emiya cannot trace attributes, and this does not give any credit to saying that Emiya can be summoned in any class.
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Unread post by wyldfire » March 28th, 2009, 4:58 am

well, in the nine bullet revolver scene he clearly traces berserker's strength to hold his rock sword...so, while i'm not saying that he can be summoned into the saber class, he CAN trace stats...and shirou with excalibar doesn't mean a man with a powerful sword...he can download the memories the sword and fight with saber's technique...whether or not he can copy her stats, i don't know though...i'll assume he can, though...

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 28th, 2009, 5:55 am

This issue has ever been discussed before.
Kikuchi wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Tracing only grants temporary stat boost. Also, I doubt Archer would be willing to toss his pride in his twin emo swords and copy others' techniques...
Last edited by Kikuchi on March 28th, 2009, 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post by Chaos Chaud » March 28th, 2009, 3:51 pm

Well, I don't think they were questioning the archer is only archer thing... I think they discussing shirou could trace status or not. To state my opinion I think he could only use NLBW if he traced Berserker status though...

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 28th, 2009, 11:09 pm

Tracing strength does not make much sense to me. I always interpret the scene as Shirou first analyzed the axe, then extracted NLBW and gauged the strength needed to wield it, and finally reinforced his body to lift the weapon.

It is sort of like how Archer's Clairvoyance is "fake", he was not born with the trait, but can achieve it through reinforcement. He can probably temporarily achieve a higher strength status with reinforcement. However, in the NLBW scene, even with the strength boost, Shirou's body was falling apart from the stress. The strength boost is not a reliable buff, but more like an afterburner that exacts a heavy toll to achieve temporary results.

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 29th, 2009, 12:12 am

Plus, if Shirou can trace things like physical strength, can't Archer do the same? Shirou is even using Archer's arm to use advanced tracing. So that confuses me because Archer should technically be the strongest servant in short bursts. He should be able to annihilate any servant by tracing super stats and super weapons. If Shirou is so freakin buff then Archer should be even buffer because Archer is Shirou's future self. So I don't think Shirou can trace stats because Archer did not do the same thing earlier.

Although, I could be wrong because I did not finish playing through HF.
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Unread post by Tessara » March 29th, 2009, 12:26 am

I agree that Archer/Shirou can probably trace most stats and abilities, but technically wouldn't he never be as good as the one he's tracing? I mean, all the NPs he traces are a rank lower than the originals, wouldn't traced stats be lower than the 'original' target he's tracing? That would explain why he can barely handle NLBW. He's traced Berserker's strength, but its still not quite up to par with the original. Its been a while since I last read through that scenario, though, so if I've got some flaw in my logic, please correct me.

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Unread post by wyldfire » March 29th, 2009, 1:35 am

can he also trace the GAR status of others??? like ubw lancer's??? :D
if he can, that'd be the best tracing ever!!!

and yeah, i also think his tracing stats is like an afterburner...like NOs in racing... :D

anyway, the stat boosts from tracing are only temporary...so, maybe statwise he isn't saber...although if i was the holy grail, considering his affinity with swords, i'd have summoned him as saber, stats or not... :D

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Unread post by BlackTornado » March 29th, 2009, 12:19 pm

is it stated in any canon sources that Shirou/Archer can trace stats? Cos i'm still doubtful...
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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 29th, 2009, 2:07 pm

BlackTornado wrote:is it stated in any canon sources that Shirou/Archer can trace stats? Cos i'm still doubtful...
Yes, it is. Read the Nine Lives Blade Works scene; it's there.
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Unread post by nobaka » March 29th, 2009, 7:16 pm

I don't think Shirou himself can trace abilities along with weapons. I think that's just the GARm. Shirou on his own just traces the weapon.

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