Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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nobaka
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Unread post by nobaka » March 16th, 2009, 2:08 am

sabata2 wrote:He traces Berzerker's Strength in order to hold the Nine Lives Blade.

That's one attribute he can trace, so really what's to stop him from tracing others?

Edit:
I just realized, that also means that he Traced Berzerker's Noble Phantasm. (An attribute I left out of my list prior)

So really Shirou could be in any class, with any stat, and any Noble Phantasm.
Yes, if he had unlimited prana.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 2:11 am

Oh, and also, I would like to point out that if he IS that hax, he would have tried something like Gae Bolg instead of K&B for lame reasons like "this is the sword I'm most used to".
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 16th, 2009, 2:43 am

Kikuchi wrote:Oh, and also, I would like to point out that if he IS that hax, he would have tried something like Gae Bolg instead of K&B for lame reasons like "this is the sword I'm most used to".
Archer's elemental affinity is "sword", wielding a lance would not be playing his strong suit, wouldn't it? Also, Archer's preference for Kansho and Bakuya says something about his personality and characters. He grew attached to their no-frills craftsmanship and the associated sentimental stories. Plus, they have a high effectiveness to mana cost ratio, making them good disposable weapons.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 3:45 am

Mana cost is not the issue here, since Gae Bolg itself is one of the most efficient NP out there. Although he said that his affinity is "sword", in truth, it means "bladed weaponry". Otherwise, why would his RM contain many kinds of spears and non-sword weapons?

If you're arguing that K&B can boost his status, then Gae Bolg can do it much more when he download Lancer's speed, strength, accuracy, etc, etc... Arguing that they simply match his character is lame, if you add the fact that Archer is quite the type of an analyst. Unless you argue that he is emo... :roll:
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Unread post by sabata2 » March 16th, 2009, 5:09 am

nobaka wrote:Yes, if he had unlimited prana.
The point was that the argument to say that Archer doesn't have the stats to make it into Saber's class is now null and void.

Regardless of the duration, He can match even Hercules' stats, so he can OBVIOUSLY fit into Saber's class.

I'm not arguing the following logic of how SMART it would be to have him in another class or how much MANA it would cost the summoner to keep him in such a state.

Simply that he CAN enter any class he pleases with the exception of Caster, as you can't trace Magical Energy. (Still don't get the reasoning behind why not Assassin though)

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 5:23 am

sabata2 wrote:
nobaka wrote:Yes, if he had unlimited prana.
The point was that the argument to say that Archer doesn't have the stats to make it into Saber's class is now null and void.

Regardless of the duration, He can match even Hercules' stats, so he can OBVIOUSLY fit into Saber's class.

I'm not arguing the following logic of how SMART it would be to have him in another class or how much MANA it would cost the summoner to keep him in such a state.

Simply that he CAN enter any class he pleases with the exception of Caster, as you can't trace Magical Energy. (Still don't get the reasoning behind why not Assassin though)
Not null and void (instead, yours lol). Status requirement is the Servant's innate status, without enhancement (Mad Enhancement, NP enhancement and stuffs. NP is a clearly different category, since it was clearly stated that Noble Phantasm is the thing that can make inferior Eirei able to defeat a superior Eirei. Enhancement from NP is thus not counted as Servant Status. ). Also, tracing another Servant's status is not as easy and convenient as you seem to think. Otherwise, why would he lose to Berserker in Fate if he has the same strength and everything?

You're imagining things too much; what is looked at is a Servant's innate status. Can Archer trace for example Berserker's strength when he was still a record, a raw data in Akasha, waiting to be summoned and placed into a class?

Why not Assassin, I think it's been clearly stated enough that he has no Presence Concealment skill (Kojirou didn't either, but he has a compensation skill for that as a master of martial arts), not even an assassin (emphasis on "assassin" and not "Assassin") and not the one of the 19 Hassan-i-Sabbah. :P
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 16th, 2009, 6:01 am

Well for Assassin, he did have an atune with nature so that was an ad-hocked version of consealment though.

Now for Archer, I doubt he'd be in the Assassin Class. It kind of goes along with my idea of him being in the Saber Class. Besides he didn't use his abilities to kill people, but to save people. Now that I think about it the Nine Lives move was actualya supposed to be with a bow and arrow. Since that's what Beserker's ability would of been if he had been an Archer instead of his current class. Not only that, but he somehow managed to have that attack with a giant rock is not that hard to believe, but kind of hard to grasp the understand on how it can work though.
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Unread post by sabata2 » March 16th, 2009, 6:02 am

But still, I've been talking about SHIROU.

Who will eventually BECOME Archer.

Now if SHIROU can trace such stats, that means that his own are now unable to be used as a qualifier, because he can trace them to whatever he needs them to be.
Shirou's Tracing ability is not an enhancement as he actually physically changes himself when he traces an ability.

Archer lost to Berserker in Fate because his primary objective was to waste time, that and he believed he could win with his strength alone.

And to your example, the Archer in Akasha is simply the final result who is reading all his adventures (That's how it was put in the VN atleast), so the answer is yes, he could.
If he was needed in another HGW and the only class open to him was Lancer, He could trace a Lancer's abilities before being summoned.
His abilities would be copies but he would still have them.

And I'll forfeit the Assassin class, if Presence Concealment is a requirement, then Shirou likely cannot enter.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 7:03 am

Ah, you're missing the essential point. To put it simpler, Heroes in Throne of Heroes are raw data. Heroes that are summoned and given class are programs. The raw data are turned into programs by a programmer, in this case, the programmer is the Greater Grail which punches a hole to Akasha and put the Heroic Spirits into catalysts called Servant Classes. Can raw data alter themselves? Sure, programs can alter themselves. But raw data?

You expect him to "Trace on" before he was summoned and put into a Class? Lulz. :lol:
(Note: Servants cannot exist without "class" for their medium)
FUYUKIWIKI wrote:Class

The vessel of the Heroic Spirit. Their temporary name. Whereas oracles and kuchiyose require the spirit to possess the speaker in order for them to temporarily exist in this era (in other words a container), a class is used as the container instead. Only those that fit the definitions of that class are summoned. The descended spirit is also equipped with additional class-specific abilities that hadn't been possessed back when it was alive.
Servants must be put into a class first before they can do hax.

Also note that Shirou's status tracing isn't permanent. Once the weapon is gone, then the copied status is also gone. Hence the reason why the last battle with Kotomine and the one with Black Saber. Hence why he died, given a status boost from Alaya, and was summoned (with a still crappy stats).
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Unread post by Zensunni » March 16th, 2009, 8:55 am

I'll have to agree with Kikuchi, it's a bit far fetched for a magus hero to fit into Saber class just because he can use magecraft/NP that grants temporary stat boosts.

Archer is most fitting for heroic spirit Emiya, low stats and always fights using noble phantasms.

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 16th, 2009, 4:06 pm

Zensunni wrote:I'll have to agree with Kikuchi, it's a bit far fetched for a magus hero to fit into Saber class just because he can use magecraft/NP that grants temporary stat boosts.

Archer is most fitting for heroic spirit Emiya, low stats and always fights using noble phantasms.
If a magus can be in the Saber class because of stat boots, I would say that is a little strange as well. Since the boost is not permanent and can only be used a limited amount of times (at least for Shirou). I even wonder if Archer can even boost his own stats. We know that the HF Shirou can change his stats but that does not necessarily mean Archer can because they are two separate people. Plus, if Archer can use such a great skill, I wonder why he did not use it in any of his fights (I guess he could have used it in the Archer v. Berserker battle, but I think Archer would have won if that were the case).

Although I agree that Archer is a fine class for Emiya, I think he would still do better in the Saber class if he is allowed to be summoned in the Saber class. The main reason would be higher stats. You can't really go wrong with that. And its not like he will all of a sudden lose his noble phantasms once he is in the Saber class.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 4:23 pm

TheRedArcher wrote:
Zensunni wrote:I'll have to agree with Kikuchi, it's a bit far fetched for a magus hero to fit into Saber class just because he can use magecraft/NP that grants temporary stat boosts.

Archer is most fitting for heroic spirit Emiya, low stats and always fights using noble phantasms.
If a magus can be in the Saber class because of stat boots, I would say that is a little strange as well. Since the boost is not permanent and can only be used a limited amount of times (at least for Shirou). I even wonder if Archer can even boost his own stats. We know that the HF Shirou can change his stats but that does not necessarily mean Archer can because they are two separate people. Plus, if Archer can use such a great skill, I wonder why he did not use it in any of his fights (I guess he could have used it in the Archer v. Berserker battle, but I think Archer would have won if that were the case).
Uhm, the main issue is actually that Archer (or any other heroes) cannot do anything (as in, ANYTHING) before they were summoned and put into a class. ^^U

They are just raw data, waiting for use by the Grail. :P
Although I agree that Archer is a fine class for Emiya, I think he would still do better in the Saber class if he is allowed to be summoned in the Saber class. The main reason would be higher stats. You can't really go wrong with that. And its not like he will all of a sudden lose his noble phantasms once he is in the Saber class.
Archer doesn't really have a Noble Phantasm, so nothing will change if he were to be summoned into other classes, I guess.
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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 16th, 2009, 4:27 pm

Kikuchi wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:
Zensunni wrote:I'll have to agree with Kikuchi, it's a bit far fetched for a magus hero to fit into Saber class just because he can use magecraft/NP that grants temporary stat boosts.

Archer is most fitting for heroic spirit Emiya, low stats and always fights using noble phantasms.
If a magus can be in the Saber class because of stat boots, I would say that is a little strange as well. Since the boost is not permanent and can only be used a limited amount of times (at least for Shirou). I even wonder if Archer can even boost his own stats. We know that the HF Shirou can change his stats but that does not necessarily mean Archer can because they are two separate people. Plus, if Archer can use such a great skill, I wonder why he did not use it in any of his fights (I guess he could have used it in the Archer v. Berserker battle, but I think Archer would have won if that were the case).
Uhm, the main issue is actually that Archer (or any other heroes) cannot do anything (as in, ANYTHING) before they were summoned and put into a class. ^^U

They are just raw data, waiting for use by the Grail. :P
I know, I was talking about after being summoned. Sorry if I was unclear.
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Unread post by Chaos Chaud » March 22nd, 2009, 1:10 am

Well, this is just a doubt of mine, but... How famous a hero in the age he's summoned affects his powers, right? So I think archer, who is not known at all, could be at least one rank more powerful if he was summoned in a future holy grail war. That way , it might be possible to summon him as saber, right?
Well, but that is speculation... The truth is ,in this war, his crappy status won't let him be summoned as saber. We cannot see a Sarcher in this war...
Too bad, i wanted to see it

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Unread post by Shourai » March 22nd, 2009, 1:25 am

Chaos Chaud wrote:Well, this is just a doubt of mine, but... How famous a hero in the age he's summoned affects his powers, right? So I think archer, who is not known at all, could be at least one rank more powerful if he was summoned in a future holy grail war. That way , it might be possible to summon him as saber, right?
No, because in truth, legends are actually just bolstering the base concept of a Hero. Legends with no actual historical truth won't add anything. Which means that status boost from legends cannot add that much into a hero. Moreover, Archer is a Counter Guardian. Counter Guardians are "faceless" heroes, people without fame who became heroes through the aid of the World in exchange of being used as a Counter Force. No matter how you look at it, it's already impossible for him to gain any fame at all.

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 22nd, 2009, 5:12 am

I am still a little confused on the time travel parallel universe stuff. So is each Archer from each route a different Archer? And is Rin summoning the Archer from the same timeline or a different universe?
For example, In the fate route, does Rin summon Archer(Fate Shirou's future) or Archer( I don't know... uh...from universe A)? Cause if it is the former, it doesn't make that much sense to me.
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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 22nd, 2009, 5:24 am

TheRedArcher wrote:I am still a little confused on the time travel parallel universe stuff. So is each Archer from each route a different Archer? And is Rin summoning the Archer from the same timeline or a different universe?
For example, In the fate route, does Rin summon Archer(Fate Shirou's future) or Archer( I don't know... uh...from universe A)? Cause if it is the former, it doesn't make that much sense to me.
I don't think that's the case. When a hero dies and resides as a record in ToH, a collective information for that hero is stored, hence why there is no male Arthur summoned. Otherwise, Kiritsugu would have summoned the male Arthur since it's how she (Arturia) had been depicted in the legends.
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Unread post by Chaos Chaud » March 22nd, 2009, 5:29 am

Shourai wrote:
Chaos Chaud wrote:Well, this is just a doubt of mine, but... How famous a hero in the age he's summoned affects his powers, right? So I think archer, who is not known at all, could be at least one rank more powerful if he was summoned in a future holy grail war. That way , it might be possible to summon him as saber, right?
No, because in truth, legends are actually just bolstering the base concept of a Hero. Legends with no actual historical truth won't add anything. Which means that status boost from legends cannot add that much into a hero. Moreover, Archer is a Counter Guardian. Counter Guardians are "faceless" heroes, people without fame who became heroes through the aid of the World in exchange of being used as a Counter Force. No matter how you look at it, it's already impossible for him to gain any fame at all.

Hmm... I get it now...
So I guess even my future speculation Sarcher is dead now...
Man, this rather sad... :( :cry:

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 22nd, 2009, 6:09 am

Kikuchi wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:I am still a little confused on the time travel parallel universe stuff. So is each Archer from each route a different Archer? And is Rin summoning the Archer from the same timeline or a different universe?
For example, In the fate route, does Rin summon Archer(Fate Shirou's future) or Archer( I don't know... uh...from universe A)? Cause if it is the former, it doesn't make that much sense to me.
I don't think that's the case. When a hero dies and resides as a record in ToH, a collective information for that hero is stored, hence why there is no male Arthur summoned. Otherwise, Kiritsugu would have summoned the male Arthur since it's how she (Arturia) had been depicted in the legends.
That makes me even more confused. It makes sense with every servant except for Archer.
This is the reason I am confused-

Archer is recorded as a counter-guardian, and I assume there is only one record based on your statement. And if there is only one record of Archer, that record will only record one life-story. If there is only one record of Archer, does that mean that Shirou will definitely be Archer in the future? I don't think so because in all three routes, Shirou has variety of different lives. And some don't seem like he is going to be Archer. And if he did, he might turn out into a different Archer, both mentally and possibly physically. But Shirou's is not decided yet, so Archer can and cannot be his future. If, say, Shirou(Fate) and Shirou (UBW) become Archers, the two Archers are going to be quite different because of what they experienced in the war. So what does that make the Archer that is recorded? That creates a problem unless Archer is an amalgamation of all the Archers, but even then it is strange because a person can only have one past, it would be very very illogical and strange if someone experienced two pasts that happened at the exactly same time and both events are true.

If you assume that Archer is going to be the future of whatever route Shirou that takes, doesn't that give Shirou a free pass to do whatever he wants since he knows he won't die and will actually be (physically) okay and not some alive but brain-dead vegetable? Archer's past is recorded, his past can't change, But all of a sudden Shirou's can? This case is very similar to the time travel goobledygook as the Back To the Future trilogy (Great movies, but the time travel system is flawed).

So my question is, what in the world is up with Archer? It seems more likely that he is from a parallel universe but and it will question the records of other servants. And what about the records of Archer ? Is Alaya going to be over saturated with Archers or is there only one record. And if there is only one record, my problems with it are listed above.

I know I already posted some of the questions before but I have not received a satisfying answer.
I'm going to replay UBW again just so I can make heads and tails of this thing. (which I will now have time for, SPRING BREAK! :D )
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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 22nd, 2009, 6:15 am

The record only accounts which exist. As in, maybe in other universes Arthur doesn't exist at all. But if assuming Arthur exists, then it would be a female instead of a male.
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