Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

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inferno_flamex
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Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 12th, 2009, 4:15 pm

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RedArcher asked my personal oppinion on timetravelling/worlds etc.. And i gave him an honest answer. And im still waiting for his reply honestly.. not yours... From what i know.. I HAD, or DID, moved on to "can Saber class be non-swordsmen" topic... In an attempt to keep grudges low...

So Shourai.. For the third time...
Pretend i didnt say anything for that matter... No no.. Im gonna concede here and now that you won! WOoohooo...
Gee man.. You're even better than Kansho who usually makes so much sense to me! Oh how i miss him.

Could you please shut your trap? Or do i REALLY have to find that 'proof' that you use so much?
So please stop badgering me for an answer or a reply... Coz its already obvious that we cannot see eye to eye...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
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Message
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Unread post by Message » March 12th, 2009, 4:34 pm

Shourai wrote:I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I'm just stating the fact that derives from canon sources. Fact that Nasu himself stated / implied through all his works (VNs and side materials). If you're going to keep denying that, I won't stop you; just live in the world of your own imagination.
Shourai, I've warned you about flaming and flamebaiting before. This is your final warning. Next time you break even the slightest rule, you're out permanently.
inferno_flamex wrote:Oh for goodness sake man... Stop contradicting/rewording yourself and just shut it man...
inferno_flamex wrote:Pretend i didnt say anything for that matter... No no.. Im gonna concede here and now that you won! WOoohooo...
Gee man.. You're even better than Kansho who usually makes so much sense to me! Oh how i miss him.
Could you please shut your trap? Or do i REALLY have to find that 'proof' that you use so much?
So please stop badgering me for an answer or a reply... Coz its already obvious that we cannot see eye to eye...
inferno_flamex, same warning for you: Stop flaming/flamebaiting or you're out.
inferno_flamex wrote:To make it easy.. I've got no proof... All im doing is showing the 'fault' in yours...
And i've been showing your faults again, and again... In fact, that's all im doing actually.
I find it rather amusing to see you making this statement, as it only serves to illustrate your own stupidity for feeding a troll. Grow up or get out, simple as that. Rule number 1 isn't rule number 1 for no reason.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 12th, 2009, 4:58 pm

Aiyaa... So we are still at this? Not to add more oil to the fire, but the implication made by the game about Archer should not be able to be summoned in Saber Class is quite solid. But taking regards to 'Unlimited Possibility Works" (inferno's RM, lol)... who knows?
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 12th, 2009, 6:18 pm

Well I'm still sticking with the whole idea that there can't be two Saber Classes duing a Grail War since the 4th HF of course.
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Besides Shirou had the mindset of an Archer since he was involved in the archery club for a while before the war. If you take that into account it kind of shows that he is well usited for the Archer Class. Also, he does tend to use his weapons as projectiles as well.

Also, on another point the same could be said about Gil. as well since his attacks are similar, yet somewhat different to Archer of course.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.

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Unread post by Vhailor » March 12th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Well I'm still sticking with the whole idea that there can't be two Saber Classes duing a Grail War since the 4th HF of course.
I don't understand why you say this. Why can't we summon two Sabers?
As you certainly know, in HF 3, there were two sabers (2 differents aspect of the same heroic spirit.) so it is possible. Why would this rule change suddenly after HF 3?
And concerning the Archer thing, i agree the mindset is more important than the possession of some range attack. I don't think the fact he is skilled with a bow is the element that makes him archer. I d rather think UBW, thanks to his versatil aspect, and the fact he relies on tactics fit more the Archer class.

I don't take too litteraly the name of the class for what I had to expect about it in fact. I think it is an indication about the "gameplay" of the class just like Saber, a close fighter or Archer some kind of rogue servant. I'm not expecting Saber to use a sword for exemple, but to have a specific use.

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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 12th, 2009, 7:13 pm

Well it's because the standard summoning classes were, Saber, Lancer, Archer, Beserker, Assassin, Caster, and Rider after the 3rd HF War, where the sisters (their name escapses me since I can't read moon runes in F/HA) summoned up the same Saber, but with a different persona. The standard Seven Servants began after the 3rd HF since a sertain Servant that shouldn't of been summoned was summoned.

Besides if Archer was to be in the Saber Class, then the argurement would pretty much be the same for why Gil. wasn't in the Saber Class as well. In any case I think it has something to do with Archer and Gil tend to use thier weapons as projectiles then just close quarters combat.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.

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Unread post by z2000 » March 12th, 2009, 8:29 pm

I wonder why would we even want EMIYA to become Saber. I mean, EMIYA just happens to be an archer who is able to use swords in close-range combat.

Also, I don't think Archer would be too happy summoned as a Saber. Other than the "Now definitely, thats one class that I won't have to deal with." since he would want to avoid close range combat with the main Close Range Melee Fighter, but he doesn't have to because he is that class.

Archer is definitely the type of person who would stand on top of a fucking roof, and start sniping the masters with his bow(s) and arrows. If I remember a quote someone made here once, Archer does a low-risk high-reward type fighting style. He probably wouldn't want to do something he isn't best at unless needed.

and, a "Standard Saber"
Saber
STR A CON B AGI B MGI C LCK D

IIRC, Shourai says that you must have abilities equal to or higher than a "Standard Saber". Are you referring when they were still alive and not affected by a Master's ability?

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Unread post by nobaka » March 12th, 2009, 9:11 pm

Remember, Shirou was originally fantastically talented at archery.

As for why Gilgamesh couldn't be summoned as a Saber, it's because he's simply not that good with a sword. The only sword he has mastered is Ea, and even then, he uses it as a beam cannon rather than a sword. He simply isn't talented enough in melee combat to be a Saber.

Also, if you're talking about Rider's sisters (if not, I got no clue who you mean), their names are Eurayle and Stheno. The three Gorgons.

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Unread post by Vhailor » March 12th, 2009, 10:13 pm

Well, i think you are mistaken Kid-Wolf. The standard rules were set for the 2nd HF by the Einsbern because of the failure of the first HF. Not enough heroic spirits, so they need to call for more participant and decieve them if i recall correctly. You can find this easily on Fuyuki (Just a little quick link but there is more to know : http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/heavensfeel.htm ). I guess Type Moon Wiki also have an article.
In fact, for all the HF, only the three knights are an obligation (Saber, Archer, Lancer), the other can be discussed.
I would like you to link the source that confort your statement because i'm not convinced :) .

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 12th, 2009, 10:23 pm

Agk.. I've already been warned by message...

And i only just woke up realising that piece of rule too... >_<

..
...
My stupdity.. My actions... My fault.. My apologies...

But anyway.. Moving on...
...

Dont forget that gil not only own swords.. but also... Spears... clubs... halbards... etc etc etc...
So not only does he own swords.. he pretty much owns everything in his vault... But.. I've yet to see any bows/arrows in particular...
can anyone confirm this?

Or has the 'technolodgy' during Babylonian times, did not make up something like the Bow&Arrow due to the lack of understanding of Physics? XDDD
..

Just like there was someone before that claimed that "Saber class does not neccesarily need a sword as a weapon"... it could be some guy with a hammer... or axe...
Once again... The only example of a hero like that is Thor... But he's a friggin god.. So that shouldnt count...

EDIT~...
I've heard somewhere that.. True.. The three basic knight class are the most basic of all... And since the Holy Grail thing was the idea of the Makiri, Tohsaka, Eizenbern... Its possible that the first 3 mages of the war.. Summonned the most basic 3 knight classes...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 13th, 2009, 1:12 am

Vhailor wrote:
Well I'm still sticking with the whole idea that there can't be two Saber Classes duing a Grail War since the 4th HF of course.
I don't understand why you say this. Why can't we summon two Sabers?
As you certainly know, in HF 3, there were two sabers (2 differents aspect of the same heroic spirit.) so it is possible. Why would this rule change suddenly after HF 3?
That's not really like that. You know, the two Sabers in question was summoned as one entity at first by the two Edelfelt sisters, and then split into two. Not that they summoned two times. Different things. :P
TM Wiki wrote:A different Saber makes a quick appearance in Fate/hollow ataraxia. The Edelfelt sisters of that time, due to their magical attribute of "twins", manage to summon a dual Saber - two faces of the same Heroic Spirit. The two Sabers appear to have still be counted as one Servant. In Fate/hollow ataraxia, their role is played by Saber and Black Saber.
And it's not like only the three Knight Classes are the obligations. Basically, the Grail itself pick 7 people to become 7 Masters before the War can start. Those 7 can summon at different times and circumstances, but there must be 7 participants. The three Knight Classes are just the original Classes, representing the three families. Additional classes were there because the three families felt the need of outside participants.
When will I get my 1337th post?

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Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 13th, 2009, 7:23 am

Inferno_Complex

Is your theory of parallel universes in FSN like this? :

There are infinite parallel universes already set in the world. None are created, none are destroyed. Each universe is a separate universe. Even though the everything up to a single point in time is the same for 1000 universes, it will be different from all of the other universes? For example, if the universes was a ball of yarn with say, 1000 individual threads. Each thread is a universe, but the thread will never change, the future and past is predetermined. The thread can tangle with other threads, but it can never be together. Hence, the reason why Shirou(A) will always be Archer(A) and Shirou(B) will always be Archer(B), never Archer(C) or (D).

or are you saying this:

There is one beginning, one origin. Time moves along and different events occur. So for every possible action, the universe branches off into several universes. For example, the trunk of a tree is the origin. But it starts to branch off in different directions (the different actions). The Past is predetermined but not necessarily the future since some branches grow slower than other branches (some universes perspective of time goes faster). Hence, why the past is set in stone for the servants in the similar universes (the branches closer to one another). Therefore, Emiya(A) can experience different things than Archer (B) (the one in his war) with having the same past but having a different future/present.

or am I completely off? I don't know. I prefer the second one because the future is not predetermined and we are not necessarily screwed by fate.

I believe that it is the general consensus that Archer cannot be summoned in the 5th war. But, can Archer, as Saber, be summoned in another war? There are 2 known requirements for the Saber class but the Archer we know does not fill the first. So can a master summon servants from different universes or are they limited to the universes near them or limited to servants in their own universe? Depending on the answer, a different Archer, Archer(C), could have been summoned and met the requirements and can be summoned as Saber. Because the main problem of Archer is his low stats, which bar him from the Saber class; if a different Archer, with satisfying stats, can be summoned, then Archer should be able to have the glorified title "Saber".

This was my main question anyway.

-----

I think Gilgamesh has a higher chance than Archer to be summoned in the Saber class. Because I believe that the requirements do not include mastering the sword but instead, requires having a sword. And his stats clearly satisfy the Saber stats so I believe that Gilgamesh can be summoned in the Saber class.
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I don't know about the Saber class being broadened to melee weapons instead of just swords. The main reason I say this is because of Lancer's and Saber's first fight against one another. I said this in a previous post but I feel like reiterating myself right now.

Lancer is having trouble with Saber's invisible sword during the fight. Once a break settles in, Lancer and Saber can finally get a few words across. Lancer questions the nature of Saber's weapon but gets a sarcastic reply from Saber, stating that the weapon can be a axe, a bow, or anything. Lancer then humors her by answering her, but states her name as Saber, indicating that he has already found out the nature of her weapon. Since Saber listed an axe as one of her possible weapons, it can not be an axe because Saber was giving a sarcastic answer to throw off Lancer. If Saber was trying to throw off Lancer, I feel that she would not state a weapon that can be classified in the Saber class. So I believe that the Saber class is given access to only a select few who have swords, based on the statement she said to Lancer.

whew, I think I got most of my points across (hopefully). I think I'll turn in for the night.

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Unread post by Zensunni » March 13th, 2009, 9:33 am

The rules of the summoning are not absolute, they have loopholes. For example, Caster summons an Assassin that doesn't fit the class requirements, as he is not a Hassan. Similiarly it's plausible the heroic spirit Emiya could be summoned as Saber.

Scenario: A grail war where all classes except Saber are already summoned, and the remaining master uses the pendant as a catalyst to summon heroic spirit Emiya. What would come out, Sarcher, a random Saber, or a second Archer? Tough call.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 13th, 2009, 9:59 am

Zensunni wrote:The rules of the summoning are not absolute, they have loopholes. For example, Caster summons an Assassin that doesn't fit the class requirements, as he is not a Hassan. Similiarly it's plausible the heroic spirit Emiya could be summoned as Saber.
That is an exception, 'cause Caster used Rule Breaker to mess with the Grail's system you know. A Servant should NOT be able to summon another Servant, after all. And in truth, he is not even a valid Servant. :P
TM Wiki wrote:The Assassin in Fate/stay night summoned by Caster is an exception, an aberration in the system, as he was summoned by another Servant.
Scenario: A grail war where all classes except Saber are already summoned, and the remaining master uses the pendant as a catalyst to summon heroic spirit Emiya. What would come out, Sarcher, a random Saber, or a second Archer? Tough call.
A difficult scenario, but assuming we only count rule #1 that Saber must have decent status, then the Grail would pick another Hero, using the summoner himself as a catalyst.

If we take inferno's "UPW" into consideration (although it most likely won't), maybe the Grail can find a more beefy EMIYA and summon him. :P
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » March 13th, 2009, 11:55 am

Vhailor wrote:Well, i think you are mistaken Kid-Wolf. The standard rules were set for the 2nd HF by the Einsbern because of the failure of the first HF. Not enough heroic spirits, so they need to call for more participant and decieve them if i recall correctly. You can find this easily on Fuyuki (Just a little quick link but there is more to know : http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/heavensfeel.htm ). I guess Type Moon Wiki also have an article.
In fact, for all the HF, only the three knights are an obligation (Saber, Archer, Lancer), the other can be discussed.
I would like you to link the source that confort your statement because i'm not convinced :) .
Actually I just post up my outlook on how I read the material in the UBW, & HF storylines. Not only that, but they did mention that they decided to follow the set 7 classes since after the first 2 HF Wars. The 3rd was kind of an exception since the two Edelfet sisters summoned the same Saber, but each getting a separate half of that Saber's ability. That was deeply described more in F/HA, but I still can't read the moon runes, but managed to get a brief idea from what others said on this site, and on this site as well though: http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~typemoon/index.htm

In any case it just feels right to have a set class description since if it was pick any class you want I'm sure there would of been an all out Saber Only War... eventually.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 15th, 2009, 5:17 pm

Zensunni wrote:The rules of the summoning are not absolute, they have loopholes. For example, Caster summons an Assassin that doesn't fit the class requirements, as he is not a Hassan. Similiarly it's plausible the heroic spirit Emiya could be summoned as Saber.

Scenario: A grail war where all classes except Saber are already summoned, and the remaining master uses the pendant as a catalyst to summon heroic spirit Emiya. What would come out, Sarcher, a random Saber, or a second Archer? Tough call.
It was mentioned in the VN that there were two factors coming into play when summoning a servant: the catalyst and the personality of the master. A master without catalyst will summon a servant that matches his/her capability as a master and personality. Rin thought she had no catalyst (but she did), and decided to rely on the sheer amount of raw prana to bait out a powerful servant.
This is my hypothesis, but following the same logic, should your catalyst fail to produce a servant that matches the class specification, the grail will select the closest heroic spirit that matches the master.

HOWEVER, there is also a second possibility, as demonstrated by Caster. The catalyst she used (be it intentionally or unintentionally) was the Ryuudo temple ground. Obviously the catalyst will fail to summon Hassan, but Kojiro was "misfitted" into the Assassin class anyway. Therefore, following this vein of logic, it is quite possible that, given the scenario outlined by Zensunni, EMIYA can be misfitted into the Sabre class as a "failed" Sabre.

I am a zealous supporter of the first theory, but I can see your point that Nasu certainly left the doors open for "special cases". We all know how Nasu capitalizes on "special cases" in his stories (all protagonists are "special cases").

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Unread post by sabata2 » March 15th, 2009, 8:44 pm

I haven't been reading the thread, but food for thought...

If Shirou can trace Hercules' strength in NLBW, doesn't that mean he can trace his other atributes up as well? Resulting in Shirou, who is eventually Archer, having a non preset stat level?
Meaning that his stats are really:
Str: X
End: X
Agi: X
Mag: B
Lck: X

If he can trace ATTRIBUTES of people then he can technically become anything.
And therefore fits in any class, except maybe Caster as you can't really Trace Magical Energy

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Unread post by solopy567 » March 15th, 2009, 9:49 pm

Can Shirou really trace attributes? cos if he could he would be practically invincible.

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Unread post by sabata2 » March 16th, 2009, 1:25 am

He traces Berzerker's Strength in order to hold the Nine Lives Blade.

That's one attribute he can trace, so really what's to stop him from tracing others?

Edit:
I just realized, that also means that he Traced Berzerker's Noble Phantasm. (An attribute I left out of my list prior)

So really Shirou could be in any class, with any stat, and any Noble Phantasm.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » March 16th, 2009, 1:52 am

sabata2 wrote:He traces Berzerker's Strength in order to hold the Nine Lives Blade.

That's one attribute he can trace, so really what's to stop him from tracing others?

Edit:
I just realized, that also means that he Traced Berzerker's Noble Phantasm. (An attribute I left out of my list prior)

So really Shirou could be in any class, with any stat, and any Noble Phantasm.
Exception of Caster and Assassin. :P
When will I get my 1337th post?

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