Archer in the Saber class (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 4:04 pm

Sigh.. Im gonna make one last post, im too tired now.. i promise.. Then you can do whatever you want to then... knock yourself out...
....
...

All known basis... Okay.. I'll accept that form of reasoning then...

...

Just like it was a known 'fact' that the world was flat... for a period of time... just because there was believed to be true.
~EDIT~ It is BECAUSE the Author did not state it as a fact that we could see the possibility of it happenning!

TheRedArcher wrote:Can Archer be summoned in the Saber Class? His weapons consists of swords except for a select few and his primary weapons seems to be a pair of short swords. His Reality Marble is even titled Unlimited BLADE works. I wonder if Rin could have summoned Archer if she summoned him on the right time.

RedArcher obviously meant summoning Archer as Saber in the form of Emiya. (Hehehh.. Look who's beginning to 'twist' in search for the truth as well.. Im beginning to be impressed.)

I dont believe he means that could Rin summon the EXACT Archer as a Saber class if she got the time just perfect...

If he literally meant Archer as HF5 Archer.. Then yes... You're correct..
But neither does HF5 Archer has any other class to turn to becuase HF5Archer is the Archer ver. of Emiya. And not 'default' Emiya himself...

Therefor Archer Emiya is already destined to be Archer because he is destined to.. Meaning he cannot become Saber because he's destined to be an Archer... Not because of his stats... No.. It has nothing to do with his stats, but rather his destiny...

So if you're asking...

Archer can be Saber... No.. He's already destined to be Archer.. It is all recorded in the 'records' that the spirit Emiya holds somewhee in the room up above... Once HF5 Archer's work is done, HF5 Archer will go to wherever it will go to exist somewhere until his next summonning, perhaps. Next summonning class still unknown.. He might even not have a specific 'class' at all... Thus.. Rendering him back to 'default' Emiya...

Can Emiya be Saber... Possible... Only the Emiya in the room up above knows as if it is also the truth... For that too is already recorded, and stored somewhere... If he can, it would already be 'recorded' if he cant... Well.. A Saber version of himself was not 'recorded' then...


...


EDIT~
Touche~
Shourai... It was a joy debating against you... XD
► Show Spoiler
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

Shourai
Crack Addic!
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread post by Shourai » March 11th, 2009, 4:21 pm

RedArcher obviously meant summoning Archer as Saber in the form of Emiya. (Hehehh.. Look who's beginning to 'twist' in search for the truth as well.. Im beginning to be impressed.)
Not Emiya but EMIYA. Known EMIYA is summoned as Archer, and his stats showed that he doens't fit to be a Saber.

Basically, this post is just a big tl;dr so...
Shourai... It was a joy debating against you... XD
► Show Spoiler
Knock yourself; you just denied the opinion of majority who have played the game, read the existing canon materials, other canon sources, etc, etc. Note that your assumption isn't in any way better than that. :P

So conclusion is... Can Archer be summoned as a Saber? Canon sources and the game indicates a no. Believe the canon, or believe yourself?

Btw, I love how this turned to be an "assumption or no" debate just because one picked one word instead of the main point of my line. Ok, that said, that's that.

Vhailor
Addict
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread post by Vhailor » March 11th, 2009, 5:05 pm

Well, it s quit an evidence Emiya doesn't fit the requirements for being summoned as Saber. The information in the Throne known Emiya doesn't fit the standard and Nasu says "Low stats, no Saber." That's all. Using swords or not is not even a pertinent info. I never read that being a sworduser is required for the Saber class and my understanding is just Saber = close melee fighter. I m pretty sure axe or warhammer would also do.

I don't understand why this is questionnable since it is already stated by canon sources.

Just to make it clear, the only things the class will bring to the Heroic Spirit are the class skills (and maybe something about the orientation but i don't know). Noble Phantasm and stats doesn't change because of this. The master can have some influence on it (Shiro for exemple.) but that's all. So no, Archer doesn't have a uber version of himself stored in the throne. If it was the case, he would get those stats (Go see Gilgamesh stats for god sake. He is also an archer and he is just overpowered too.)

Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 11th, 2009, 8:22 pm

Vhailor wrote:...Nasu says "Low stats, no Saber." That's all. Using swords or not is not even a pertinent info. I never read that being a sworduser is required for the Saber class and my understanding is just Saber = close melee fighter. I m pretty sure axe or warhammer would also do.
I agree with the "low stats, no Sabre" part. However, stating that a high status melee fighter wielding a random weapon will qualify as a Sabre is stretching it a bit. Regardless of what you think, the VN states Sabre as "Servant of the Sword". You must be able to wield a sword with some proficiency (not saying that you can't have other awesome NP's). However, I understand what you are saying. The class rules are sometimes bent beyond recognition.
Herpe is classified as a sword as far as I know, but it is closer to a lance or polearm.

The Throne of Heroes always store the most powerful version of the hero. You may argue that Sabre was summoned without Avalon, but remember that Sabre was not summoned from the Throne of Heroes. If EMIYA was summoned as an Archer by the grail, then that was as far as he could go. Remember, Archer's pathetic status was actually under Rin, If Shirou was his master, he would probably have E all across the board.

The parallel universe theory sounds tempting, "maybe in one of the realities EMIYA dominated everyone". However, this is highly unlikely. Akasha and the Throne of Heroes exist outside of temporal and spatial boundaries and can pluck out the best version of an individual. Therefore, EMIYA is probably as good as it gets for Emiya Shirou.

Vhailor
Addict
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread post by Vhailor » March 11th, 2009, 9:23 pm

The VN says "Saber, the servant of the sword" but i think it is a translation for guys who doesn't understand english in fact. My point would be the two Archers (Especially Gilgamesh) who doesn't really use bows. Well Emiya use a bow but he wasn't choose as Archer for this. I think the class name Saber is chosen to give us the close melee fighter side to the caracter but hell, maybe i'm wrong here.

TheRedArcher
Addict
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 10:07 pm

It is true that assumptions are not set in stone because they are ASSUMPTIONS. But assumptions first must derive from facts and must be supported by valid evidence or logic in order to determine whether the assumption is indeed valid.

If it is a stated fact that the Saber class must use a sword and must have sufficient stats, then Archer can't be summoned in the Saber class. Archer most definitely fulfills the first requirement but unless you can prove that Archer has the sufficient stats to be in the Saber class, all the definitions and what not are not going to help.

Inferno_flamex, You provided a theory that the hypothetical Sarcher can be summoned from another parallel universe, where Sarcher has the sufficient stats and is EXTREMELY proficient with the sword. It can work but it is kinda far fetched. The reason I believe it is far fetched is that any servant can be summoned in ANY class because of the infinite parallel universes, assuming that your theory is true. It also seems pointless to have a long history when any history is plausible. That means that Shirou could have summoned a Saber that wasn't obsessed with changing the past or summoned a male Saber because it could have been a Saber from another universe. Not a very good example but it at least provides the reason why I do not believe that the whole "Sarcher from another universe" would not work.

Given that it is a stated FACT that the Saber class has those two requirements, it is going to be difficult prove that Archer can meet the second requirement. In order to prove that Archer can have the sufficient stats, you have to get into the mechanics of the Archer class and the Saber class. Do the classes affect the stats? Do the classes ration out the stats across the skills? How are stats changed from their previous life and the life of a servant? How does Alaya's effect on Archer affect his stats, would it have a stronger influence in the Saber class or in the Archer class or not at all? There are probably more questions but I will leave it at that. I believe that once you answer those questions, you can conclude whether Archer can be Sarcher or not. But I think this board already reached a general consensus that Archer cannot be summoned as Saber in the fifth holy grail war.

Some of the questions have been answered but I would like a compiled list of answers for the sake of organization. But based off the requirements, it seems that Gilgamesh has a more likely chance to be a Saber than Archer does.


Vhailor wrote:The VN says "Saber, the servant of the sword" but i think it is a translation for guys who doesn't understand english in fact. My point would be the two Archers (Especially Gilgamesh) who doesn't really use bows. Well Emiya use a bow but he wasn't choose as Archer for this. I think the class name Saber is chosen to give us the close melee fighter side to the caracter but hell, maybe i'm wrong here.
I don't think Saber can be twisted into the meaning that Saber can use any close range combat weapon. In the fight with Saber and Lancer, Lancer asks for the nature of her weapon, but Saber replies that it could be an axe or a bow or whatever. But Lancer then calls her by the name "Saber", indicating that he knows that her weapon is a sword. I perceived Saber's comment as a sarcastic way to throw off the enemy by bringing up the idea of possible weapons, even though she knew that she can't throw him off. And Lancer is just humoring her with his reply, but also saying that he doesn't buy it. So I think that the Saber class is a class only for those that are proficient in the sword.
It is true that Gilgamesh does not use a bow, I don't seem to recall the VN ever saying that "Archer is a servant of the bow", or maybe I just missed it.

Vhailor
Addict
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread post by Vhailor » March 11th, 2009, 10:14 pm

Well you missed it so. It is written in the VN when Saber explain to shirou the different classes.

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 11th, 2009, 10:42 pm

@RedArcher..

I go by the theory that...

"Past histories are set in stone, while the events of the future... are infinite"...

That's why i also believe that, as all the other servents are heroes from time past... Their lives and deaths are recorded as such. And nothing from them can be changed... Shirou is still living/growing, so i see his abilities and promise and potential as infinite.

But in the case of Arthuria/Chu.. Even if she is somehow summonned in a 9th War or something... The fact that Arthur would be a Girl.. and Lancer would be in the blue haired.. would not change... Because although the 'events' are in the future, it doesnt change the fact that the 'character' is already 'recorded', therefor he/she cannot change.
That means that Shirou could have summoned a Saber that wasn't obsessed with changing the past or summoned a male Saber because it could have been a Saber from another universe. Not a very good example but it at least provides the reason why I do not believe that the whole "Sarcher from another universe" would not work.
So i should state that i do not think that this would be possible as well...

...
To reply if you're asking if Archer can come back as a Saber in the 5th War then i dont think that's possible either because technically the 5th war already happenned...

...
....
And i also believe that the 'saber' class is just a class that describes the type of fighting the hero uses...
There could be instances whereby the summonned Saber be an Axe user. I agree...

..
Or we could not have a hero like Thor be in ANY class...

...Lets forget the fact that he's a god for abit shall we? Coz i cant seem to think of any other 'hero' that weilds an Axe...
...
......

Hmm.. Maybe that 'big guy' that fought alongside Archeilles in Troy...

...
I would like to clarify my statements further, but sadly im pressed for time right now and have to rush off...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

TheRedArcher
Addict
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 11th, 2009, 11:34 pm

inferno_flamex wrote:@RedArcher..

I go by the theory that...

"Past histories are set in stone, while the events of the future... are infinite"...

That's why i also believe that, as all the other servents are heroes from time past... Their lives and deaths are recorded as such. And nothing from them can be changed... Shirou is still living/growing, so i see his abilities and promise and potential as infinite.

But in the case of Arthuria/Chu.. Even if she is somehow summonned in a 9th War or something... The fact that Arthur would be a Girl.. and Lancer would be in the blue haired.. would not change... Because although the 'events' are in the future, it doesnt change the fact that the 'character' is already 'recorded', therefor he/she cannot change.
Sorry, my bad for misinterpreting your theory. But just to clarify, are you going with the Back to the Future theory of time travel, where different actions causes the future to skew off into a different tangent?

But the thing is, by going back to the past, Archer is changing his past. So his past is now different than the past he experienced. I see it as this, The future is based off the actions of the present which is based off the actions of the actions of the past. Therefore, with each universe, there is only one course of action. If Archer is from a different but similar universe, then it works with your theory that Shirou has infinite futures. But the thing is, what about Archer's past? Archer, as Shirou, must have experienced the 5th war, as Shirou. He followed the events in his life and became Archer. But now his past is different than Shirou's present, (which will later become his past, ultimately causing the events that he experiences to be a part of the past).

Since a single person has two different pasts, how can the past be set in stone? If Archer's past is recorded, then every single Shirou that will be Archer would be recorded, making Alaya over saturated with Archers. If this can be said for Archer, then it can be said for practically any other servant as well. A Saber that did action A and became a hero, a saber who did action B and became a hero and so on, would all be recorded as well. Basing off of your comment on Lancer always having the same hair color, Lancer could have decided to dye his hair green and became a hero, it has no real impact on his accomplishments but it is a different past non the less. Then a master would have a green haired Lancer because that history has been recorded.

Based off of that, then a Master could summon any version of his/her servant as long as in his/her past, as long as they have used the same noble phatasm and achieved the same accomplishments. So in Saber's case, that X chromosome could have gotten together with that Y chromosome and created a male. If that male Saber used Excalibur and achieved the same accomplishments, then Saber could have been male.

So I am saying that your theory still doesn't quite make sense to me. If the past is set in stone and there are infinite futures, when does the past diverge from the present? Going by the past is set in stone, If Archer did action A when he was Shirou's age, does that mean that Shirou would do action A too? and if Archer then did action B, shirou would do action B? Archer's past is set in stone but it still affects Shirous future (assuming that he is still going to be Archer)? That sounds a little strange to me.

I'm talking in circles and I realized that you still wanted to clarify a few things. So I will stop here.

Shourai
Crack Addic!
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread post by Shourai » March 12th, 2009, 1:52 am

One thing I would like to mention about alternate parallel universe: true, there is an infinite possibility. But for those possibilities, there is always a concept. And the possibilities cannot stray too much from the concept. Otherwise, the King Arthur summoned would be Saver and not Saber, since that is what humanity always believe in, given if "unlimited possibilities can be anything".

sabata2
Addict
Posts: 107
Joined: December 19th, 2008, 10:58 pm

Unread post by sabata2 » March 12th, 2009, 4:13 am

Okay, I didn't read past the post I'm quoting but I have something to point out.
Shourai wrote:Yup.. And Shirou never learned sword-fighting from Saber back when he was alive...
And I never said anything about all top notch heroes using swords. Let me make this clear, then: there are TWO requirements for Saber Class:
1. A sword user (at least, can wield a sword well)
2. Status must be no less than standard.

One is not fulfilled? No Saber, that's that.
Then that means that a Swordmaster Hero(ine) who wasn't strong enough, or wasn't fast enough, or wasn't magically inclined enough, during their lifetime would be forced into a class that doesn't suit them?

That honestly doesn't make sense, unless you're going to go ahead and simply say "Then they'll be Berzerker." which would be a complete cop-out.

The way you are talking means that GArcher's stats reflect what he had right up to his death.
And if that's what you're basing you're entire argument on, then explain to me the scenario I just gave.

Inverted
Crack Desu!
Posts: 263
Joined: February 2nd, 2008, 7:25 pm

Unread post by Inverted » March 12th, 2009, 4:44 am

You guys are thinking too much. Servants are not summoned from alternate realities or the strongest versions, they are summoned from the past of this particular timeline. Emiya is a special case as he is from the future, not to mention his summoning was forced due to jewel.This is my speculation but jewel are integral part of Thosaka sorcery which is derived from Zelrecth , practioner of Second Magic (parallel Universes) . His weapon even has jewels .Hence in Emiya's case I believe the above reasons may have played a part in addition to the jewel being strongly connected to him.

Also Emiya summoned was a random one too.Rin easily could have gotten another version .He probably got summoned as his desire to change his past was more ,I guess, as opposed to other versions of Emiya, not because he was strongest.
Though I don't see much change in different version, not in stats. Probably the change will be in the amount of weapons whose true power he has discovered by searching through them.

As for his stats under different masters, I believe only overpowered Servants stats will take a hit when summoned by
inexperienced masters.As Archer's stats are average his shouldn't take a hit.

Now, I am thinking too much.

Shourai
Crack Addic!
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread post by Shourai » March 12th, 2009, 4:52 am

sabata2 wrote:Okay, I didn't read past the post I'm quoting but I have something to point out.
Shourai wrote:Yup.. And Shirou never learned sword-fighting from Saber back when he was alive...
And I never said anything about all top notch heroes using swords. Let me make this clear, then: there are TWO requirements for Saber Class:
1. A sword user (at least, can wield a sword well)
2. Status must be no less than standard.

One is not fulfilled? No Saber, that's that.
Then that means that a Swordmaster Hero(ine) who wasn't strong enough, or wasn't fast enough, or wasn't magically inclined enough, during their lifetime would be forced into a class that doesn't suit them?

That honestly doesn't make sense, unless you're going to go ahead and simply say "Then they'll be Berzerker." which would be a complete cop-out.

The way you are talking means that GArcher's stats reflect what he had right up to his death.
And if that's what you're basing you're entire argument on, then explain to me the scenario I just gave.
Firstly, Archer stats at the point of his death was weaker than when he was a Servant. He got a strength boost from Alaya as a Counter Force, in addition to being elevated to the status of "Anti-Hero".

And before you ask me a question like that, ask this to yourself: how many weak heroes do you think are there in existence? Those who became heroes by their own strength must have a status far above the average. Unless you are talking about Counter Guardians such as Archer. Then again, CGs receive boosts of power from Alaya, which allows them to combat normal Heroic Spirits.
Fuyuki wrote:Heroic Spirits
► Show Spoiler
.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Assuming there IS a weak hero who became Eirei by his own strength, used sword as his main weapon, but had crappy status, then no Saber for him. Berserker, then. "Berserker is a class used to enhance a normally weak hero".

Or if you want to go as far as to say that he had no name, then... *looks at Kojirou*

Inverted
Crack Desu!
Posts: 263
Joined: February 2nd, 2008, 7:25 pm

Unread post by Inverted » March 12th, 2009, 5:16 am

Shourai wrote: Firstly, Archer stats at the point of his death was weaker than when he was a Servant. He got a strength boost from Alaya as a Counter Force, in addition to being elevated to the status of "Anti-Hero".
Actually we don't know what sort of help or boost he got. The help he got may very well be just enough to save the people from disaster,i.e, temporary, or maybe it also unlocked his complete potential physically.

Though what you say may very well be true but it is also speculation as we do not know what he got along with the deal if at all anything permanent.

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 12th, 2009, 5:21 am

No no.. not back to the future theory... Hmm.. i think its easiest if i drew up afew stuffs...

Lets say there are 3 different Timelines, all three are parallel (in terms of parallel universe of course)... And for easy sake, 3 different Archers... Mainly...

Shirou - The Kid that we know...
Archer - The Summoned Form...
Emiya - The one that resides in the throne...



*Outside of the universe that is 'self'*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A _______________
► Show Spoiler


B _______________
► Show Spoiler

C _______________
► Show Spoiler
You can see that everyone has their own 'universe'... The possibilities are only limited to ONE.. which is self. Meaning that people cannot timetravel into someone ELSE... Think of it as something like a 'person' timeline is like a 'electric cable'... And his possibilities and parallel universe are something like the 'wires' within the cable...

And as seen is these three timelines... Everything Shirou (from timeline A,B,C) did before a ceratin point is EXACTLY the same.

...
So i guess from what you ask.. I see it that Archer(from A) would go back to the past.. But as his past has been set in stone.. There is no way to change HIS past.. However he COULD go back to Timeline B or C, where Shirou is still Shirou, and both endings did not result him in being Emiya. So what he did was go back in past, but one of a parallel world.. Technically, he still went back in time...

Lets assuming that he is going to succeed (or im gonna havta implant timeline D, or he could just relive timeline A unchanged)... Archer, would not know which timeline he's been thrown into, not until he find out if Shirou can be killed or simply convinced to drop the ideal... So technically his 'future' is still a limitless possibility (in this case, a predetermined 2 other)... Despite the fact that 'Archer/Emiya' is not going to exist... The factors that led to it are different.

...
......

Now.. I've explained that 'Archer/Emiya' is NOT going to exist.. However this only holds true for Archer/Emiya of worlds B and C... The fate of Archer from timeline/world A is sadly going to go on... His past as Shirou resulted him in being Archer/Emiya.. And he cannot change that fact... The only thing he did was change the fates of either one of 2 Shirous, from B or C...

Therefor, there is ALWAYS a CONSTANT of Shirou/Emiya/Archer from timelineA making the switch to back in time. Which Timeline they go to is not certain until they reach there...

To reply about what you said about Multi-Emiyas in the Throne... I see this as 2 ways/possibilities...

One.. It is that since the Alaya records sees BOTH future/past... It could be possible that each parrallel universe/timeline is give its own SPECIFIC alaya.. The Throne of A, does not intrude nor take note of heroes or the conditions in Throne B,C,D or even E themselves...

Two... Yeah.. it does consists of multiple Emiyas. However only the 'correct' Archers based off their 'correct' parent Emiyas are summonned to their respective timelines...

Having multiple Emiyas are not impossible... If you can accept and take note that
ShirouA -> EmiyaA -> ArcherA...
ShirouB -> *none* (because in timeline B he threw away his ideals right?)
ShirouX -> EmiyaX -> ArcherX
Then... We can even see slight difference in personality in all the FSN routes... Fate Route Archer not determined to throw his ideal he seams... While UBW Archer actually ATTEMPTED to kill it...

Maybe Archer did what he did in those various routes, due to the circumstances... But if he did not, remember that Archer stems from its respected Emiya.

~~~~~~

So i guess... To sum it all up... Archer went back in time, but to a parallel past. Where his appearence/exit was already recorded by (multiple/two?) Alaya, as it sees past&future.

The only exception is Shirou. Because his future is still uncertain, since we cannot determine which timeline Shirou is from, the future is technically limitless, because one does not see Alaya records before him. Since Archer, a byproduct of Emiya, connot remember his past..
We cannot assume that any Shirou in particular becomes said Archer/Emiya, simply because it is not known... But from what it we know, out of the 3 Shirous that we know... Fate shirou stands the biggest possibility...

Saber/Lancer/Berz... All have their fates recorded in stone.. Unchangable.. The fact that their legends did not state that they go back in time. Their appearence cannot change (at least not after the 5th grail war)... Even if they did go back in time (parrellel), the Spirits that we know already lived their lives, so like Archer, are unable to change THEIR fates, but still able to change others...

And in the 5th war is considered their FUTURE.. a time where their lives are already over, and their history set in stone.. So they do not have any mean to change it.

Saber is abit different, coz well you guys know that she's in a constant loop.. thing.. right? Only abit tho as i see it.

There COULD be multiple versions of Emiyas up there, or just one. But they only go back to their own timeline, unless its into their past...

..
....

I am not saying that this theory applies to all heroes... All im saying that Emiya is special... As he (in Shirou form) is not dead, there is a possibiliy.

Umm... Am i making sense here?

PS.. sorry for long/late post.. im in school lab and its been quite a hassle to juggle explaining things and designing complex crap in 3D... >_<
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

TheRedArcher
Addict
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread post by TheRedArcher » March 12th, 2009, 7:23 am

Wait, just to clarify, which Archer did you think come into this "universe"? Shirou's actual future (the timeline) or the future that he could have had (which means that he would have to be from a parallel universe)?
If Archer's past is set in stone, then it can only be either this or that. If the Archer in this world is labeled as Archer(A), then that means that the Archer in Fate, UBW, and HF are all Archer(A). Correct? If this is not what you mean than correct me.

I think this is what you mean-

Shirou(A) -> Emiya (A) -> Archer (A)

Shirou(A)-> performs a different action so becomes Emiya (B)-> Archer(B)

Shirou(A)-> dies so no Emiya-> non existent Archer

So you are saying that no matter what, Rin will summon Archer(A), and depending on the events in that universe, Shirou(A) will turn into Archer(?).
Please correct me if I have it wrong, because I will explain why I am still a little bit skeptical about the summoning Archer thing.

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 12th, 2009, 9:23 am

TheRedArcher wrote:Wait, just to clarify, which Archer did you think come into this "universe"? Shirou's actual future (the timeline) or the future that he could have had (which means that he would have to be from a parallel universe)?
If Archer's past is set in stone, then it can only be either this or that. If the Archer in this world is labeled as Archer(A), then that means that the Archer in Fate, UBW, and HF are all Archer(A). Correct? If this is not what you mean than correct me.

I think this is what you mean-

Shirou(A) -> Emiya (A) -> Archer (A)

Shirou(A)-> performs a different action so becomes Emiya (B)-> Archer(B)

Shirou(A)-> dies so no Emiya-> non existent Archer

So you are saying that no matter what, Rin will summon Archer(A), and depending on the events in that universe, Shirou(A) will turn into Archer(?).
Please correct me if I have it wrong, because I will explain why I am still a little bit skeptical about the summoning Archer thing.

Shirou(A) -> Emiya (A) -> Archer (A)
Shirou(B) -> Emiya (B) -> Archer (B)
Shirou(C) -> Emiya (C) -> Archer (C)

Shirou(A) can never become Emiya/Archer(B) or (C) and so forth... He can either die.. Or be Emiya/Archer of (A)...
That is also why.. When one goes back in time/diff p.world... One can meet oneself.. not as a first person, but as a 2nd person.

Meaning... Archer(A) can meet Shirou(B) or (C)... but almost never Shirou (A)..

Because the Shirou of (A) has moved on and became Archer(A). HOWEVER.. If by somehow Archer(A) has travelled between worlds an infinite time.. meaning he has gone through all worlds.. He is sure bound to return to world (A).. But still, Archer (A) WILL NOT be able to change the fate of Shirou(A)... Because Archer(A) is Shirou(A) of the future.. And Archer(A) past = Shirou(A) future.. therefor Shirou(A) future is known and is already considered 'set in stone' as well... A fact that does not apply to some other Shirous...

Because all parallel universe has time in parallel. Every one of the Shirous starts at the same time in their life... Yet.. A constant new supply of Shirous is produced to follow the time 'flow'... Think of it as a constant wave of water in a tunnel...

So.. If you meant Rin... Assuming that Archer(A) is the one that reached her, out of all other infinite Archer possibilities..

...Then...
Shirou(A) -> Emiya(A) -> Archer(A)

...

Rin(A) lived her childhood life alongside Shirou(A)... As Shirou(A) died and became Emiya(A)...
..

Then Rin(B) summons a servent... which because of circumstances Summonned Archer(A) from the future... While Shirou(B) is from her childhood..

RedArcher wrote: no matter what, Rin will summon Archer(A) Archer(?),
(Simply because the fact that Archer(A) might NOT be the only Shirou that became Emiya... There could be Archer(K)/(J)/(Z) etc etc.. as the possibilities are limitless...

and depending BECAUSE of the events in that universe, Shirou(A) will turn into Archer(?) can only be Archer(A).

(because if Shirou(A) and Archer(A) are the same person.. By law of Alaya.. Archer(A) past = Shirou(A) future... Therefor Shirou(A) can only be Archer(A)... And not only is Shirou's actions are pre-determined.. but also the events that caused him to be Archer(A))
Did i miss anything??

please by all means.. Entertain me... This is the 'best' theory i have about timetravelling/parallel worlds and such, not just to FSN, but all other Sci-Fi shows thingie i watched... And if you think you find a flaw in it.. im more than happy to question/correct it...
Seriously..


~EDIT~
Forgot to add something somewhere in there...

Fate/UBW/HF Archer are not ALL Archer(A)...
Like i said.. About HALF as much Archers as the world is infinite... Half because its either he becomes one, or not... So the possibilities are 'devided by 2'.

So Fate Archer could be called Archer(A), if you want...
While UBW.. might be Archer(L)
And HF.. Archer(R)


Im saying MIGHT because we have no evidence which Archer is from which line...
...
So there is no proof that all Archers are from (A), or is there proof that they're all from diff worlds...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

Shourai
Crack Addic!
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread post by Shourai » March 12th, 2009, 10:13 am

Just a quick comment from me. Firstly, you must understand that in Nasuverse, there is something called Akasha, the root of everything in this universe. Akasha keeps record of all existence with a one, specific basis for each recordings. In the archives of Akasha, there is a collective existence record, meaning that it doesn't matter from which the source is, the information is there as a complete entity.

When someone is already dead / deceased, the information flow is thus stopped. The archive cannot gain or rewrite anymore information, as the physical body is no longer there. So there is no such things such as "Archer A", "Archer B", "Archer C"; they all exist in Akasha as one collective entity EMIYA. Basics always exist for concepts such as Akashic records, so nothing can stray too far from it. That is why there is no male Arthur to be summoned, and such.

By the way, I love how this derives even further into "infinite possibilities" when it's already cleared that Archer cannot be summoned as Saber because of his crappy stats...

inferno_flamex
DESU DESU!
Posts: 832
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere that's raining Bishoujos

Unread post by inferno_flamex » March 12th, 2009, 12:32 pm

Shourai wrote:Just a quick comment from me. Firstly, you must understand that in Nasuverse, there is something called Akasha, the root of everything in this universe.
Apperently it was too quick... Did you even attempt to understand my post by reading it quickly?

Yeah.. I know from this universe... But does it say that it records stuff from 'other' universe as well?
Shourai wrote: So there is no such things such as "Archer A", "Archer B", "Archer C"; they all exist in Akasha as one collective entity EMIYA.
[/qoute]

Uhh.. As you cannot prove that there is another 'universe' out there, im gonna have to ignore this statement coz the concecpt of multiple Archers derive from multiple universes...
Shourai wrote: When someone is already dead / deceased, the information flow is thus stopped. The archive cannot gain or rewrite anymore information, as the physical body is no longer there.
[/qoute]

Didnt i say that as well? Somehing along the lines that since Saber/Lancer/Berz is already dead in the past.. They're pretty much gonna stay the way they are and all?...
Shourai wrote: Basics always exist for concepts such as Akashic records, so nothing can stray too far from it. That is why there is no male Arthur to be summoned, and such.
Yeah.. I also stated that Arthur is Arthuria and that cannot be changed..
Shourai wrote: By the way, I love how this derives even further into "infinite possibilities" when it's already cleared that Archer cannot be summoned as Saber because of his crappy stats...
We cleared that HF5 Archer cannot be anything else but Archer... I agree that as well...

We have NOT however... cleared that...

ONE)
Saber's stats requirements are in fact very HIGH...

TWO)
You MUST MUST MUST FORCED MUST NO CHOICE use a sword as Saber... Sorry.

Three)
All great heroes are swordsman... All hail the swordsmen and their swords of power.

Four)
Archer's crappy stat was due to his own inablility... Debateable... True he is a CG. But you cannot forget that he was summonned during one of Rin's typical epic fail events where even the most simplest of task could be overlooked, and fumbled... As Archer once claimed that it affected him so much that he did not remember who he really was... True.. This too is debatable.. It could be him feigning ignorance.. but as it cannot really be proven.. it is a fact in itself, yet something that could be considered both ways...

Five)
Archer cannot be summonned as Saber because it was already written in the records that Arthuria would be summonned as Saber.. Therefor Archer is forced as Archer...


...
.....

Listen Shourai.. If there is one thing that best could describe you and me... Is.. Like..

You're Gil...
With all these 'true' facts and weapon prototypes and moulds...

And im Archer...
With all these 'fakes' swords that still gets the job done nonetheless...

...Yeah...
So before this escalates into a full fledge personal war between the both of us just for the sake of different views... Something like some holy war of the Christians and Jews and Muslims and all...

Could we just stop biting down each other's neck?
You do realise that i've already attempted to stop right and all my current conversations were for RedArcher and anyone else who still thinks that a possibility is STILL a possibility... Before you, once again.. States that it cannot be done..

Simply because you personally believe so, so everyone should believe what you do...

Let the people make up their own minds i say... I shall share a piece of my thoughts on the matter... And let them make up their own mind on what to do with the other's point of view.. Be it to completely buy it.. or even if they wished mix the two together as they see fit...

The world is not made up by 'rights' and 'wrongs' man...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ

Shourai
Crack Addic!
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread post by Shourai » March 12th, 2009, 12:47 pm

Uhh.. As you cannot prove that there is another 'universe' out there, im gonna have to ignore this statement coz the concecpt of multiple Archers derive from multiple universes...
What multiple universe? If you are talking about Nasuverse, then there is only one Akasha. There are alternate dimensions, but only one root / system.
TYPE-MOON Wiki wrote:
► Show Spoiler
And I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I'm just stating the fact that derives from canon sources. Fact that Nasu himself stated / implied through all his works (VNs and side materials). If you're going to keep denying that, I won't stop you; just live in the world of your own imagination.

I'm just making clear for everyone here about the conclusion which we can withdraw from all those fragments of evidences. You, on the other hand, are even straying outside the realm of what we call Nasuverse. When we talk about Nasuverse, it's Nasuverse. No more or no less. :P

And actually, you still haven't given a proof that Archer can have sufficient status to be summoned as Saber, whereas I have proved otherwise. :P
OK, so here's a simple test: canon sources have stated that to be summoned as Saber, one ought to have status that are above standard and with high ratings in all categories. Can you give sufficient evidence (from the realm of Nasuverse) that Archer can pass that criterion? If you can, I'll keep my trap shut, then.

Locked