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Lancer vs. Berserker? [spoilers]

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 12:34 am
by TheRedArcher
I don't see how Lancer could win. Since all of his attacks are B class and lower, doesn't that mean he can't put a dent in Berserker's skin? Lancer has great speed, but it seems pointless if Lancer can't hurt Berserker.

Or does Lancer have an even more powerful move than Gae Bolg that I don't know about?

Re: Lancer vs. Berserker? [spoilers]

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 12:48 am
by KratosIrving
TheRedArcher wrote:I don't see how Lancer could win. Since all of his attacks are B class and lower, doesn't that mean he can't put a dent in Berserker's skin? Lancer has great speed, but it seems pointless if Lancer can't hurt Berserker.

Or does Lancer have an even more powerful move than Gae Bolg that I don't know about?
Fufufu. There technically is, if you go with the typemoon wiki. He never uses any runes other than the navigation and fire ones he shows in UBW. I always wondered what other runes Lancer had, so I included one that had no name (created that myself after researching runes a bit) but the effect was as is.

Read this, see how it works for ya. 8)

http://typemoon.us/fanfiction/cooled-am ... ar-eoh-ing

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 12:52 am
by that one guy
Well, we can expect the Spear of Striking Death Flight Gae Bolg to kill Berserker at least once, and the Spear of Impaling Barbed Death version will take out one life and probably impair him for the rest of his time, and then you've got the Runes to fall back on.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 1:02 am
by Shourai
Lol powerlevels.

... Maybe no? :3

Anyway, I suspect as much that Striking Death Flight can actually take more than 1 life. Maybe 2 or 3. The rest Lancer can rely on is just rune magic. But since he only has 1 weapon, that'd be hard as hell, even more so than Archer's situation. Maybe he can aim for Ilya, given his chivalry doesn't get in the way?

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 1:19 am
by that one guy
So long as she just asks him not to, he can't. If she offers him dog meat, he's ****ed.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 5:05 am
by Keeper of Gil's Vault
The geis approach does not sound like one Ilya would take. It sounds more like something Tohsaka would formulate. Ilya would just go, "Crush him Bazaka!"

Striking Death Flight would probably take out one life at best. My rationale is based on Rho Aias. See, Archer's Rho Aias is a conceptual weapon (shield), which embodies the concept of blocking all projectiles, but it is not the real Rho Aias. This means that its rank is not very high, as it is not a true legendary artifact. Furthermore, Archer projecting it further degrades its rank. With these conditions holding against it, Rho Aias still manages to hold off the brunt of a Striking Death Flight. This makes me wonder whether Striking Death Flight can kill Berserker even once. Sure it will breach God Hand, but Striking Death Flight is mostly AoE (supposed to split into countless barbs and splinters) and does not guarantee piercing the heart, so... given Berserker's constitution and Battle Continuation, Berserker will probably chase Lancer down with a body full of holes.

Plus, Berserker is not THAT slow.

Also, Lancer's rune magic is younger than Berserker, unless it has some extremely potent divine origin or god-slaying effect, damage to Berserker is probably minimal.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 5:37 am
by TheRedArcher
I remember reading somewhere that Berserker is unaffected by attacks weaker than A rank. Is this true? If it is, then the Spear of Striking Death Flight Gae Bolg should be ineffective because it is only B rank. I also can't imagine that any of Lancer's runes are powerful enough to the point where it is A rank. If the first sentence is true, then Lancer is pretty much screwed when he faces Berserker face to face.

Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 5:54 am
by that one guy
Well, he can still severely handicap Zerker with Impaling Barbed Deat. Even if it was rank Z in strength, it would still hit unless Berserker was REALLY lucky.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 5:58 am
by sabata2
Berserker has A rank Luck IIRC and Saber had the same amount, yet she managed to survive.

So yeah I'm leaning towards the "berserker being really lucky" side.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 6:16 am
by Shourai
TheRedArcher wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Berserker is unaffected by attacks weaker than A rank. Is this true? If it is, then the Spear of Striking Death Flight Gae Bolg should be ineffective because it is only B rank. I also can't imagine that any of Lancer's runes are powerful enough to the point where it is A rank. If the first sentence is true, then Lancer is pretty much screwed when he faces Berserker face to face.

Please tell me if I'm wrong.
God Hand is unaffected by attacks below rank B. Not A.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 7:28 am
by KratosIrving
Rawr. I'll go ahead and say what I was refering to in my earlier post. Lancer supposedly has a rune that enchants Gae Bolg to basically nullify any godly protection an opponent might have; immortality, supreme power, etc.

Thus, allowing Lancer to be able to kill Berserker, since God Hand's immunity and stock of lives would be ignored.

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 9:32 am
by TheRedArcher
Shourai wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Berserker is unaffected by attacks weaker than A rank. Is this true? If it is, then the Spear of Striking Death Flight Gae Bolg should be ineffective because it is only B rank. I also can't imagine that any of Lancer's runes are powerful enough to the point where it is A rank. If the first sentence is true, then Lancer is pretty much screwed when he faces Berserker face to face.

Please tell me if I'm wrong.
God Hand is unaffected by attacks below rank B. Not A.
I see. Good thing for Lancer then. :)
KratosIrving wrote: Rawr. I'll go ahead and say what I was refering to in my earlier post. Lancer supposedly has a rune that enchants Gae Bolg to basically nullify any godly protection an opponent might have; immortality, supreme power, etc.

Thus, allowing Lancer to be able to kill Berserker, since God Hand's immunity and stock of lives would be ignored.
Interesting. What other runes would Lancer have?

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 2:32 pm
by KratosIrving
Unfortunately, (of fortunate, depending on how you want to look at it, if you're creative) even on the wiki page theres not much info about it. :cry:

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ells#Runes

Posted: February 24th, 2009, 6:30 pm
by nobaka
Image

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 2:18 pm
by spathi
what is that supposed to mean?

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 7:12 pm
by Keeper of Gil's Vault
KratosIrving wrote:Rawr. I'll go ahead and say what I was refering to in my earlier post. Lancer supposedly has a rune that enchants Gae Bolg to basically nullify any godly protection an opponent might have; immortality, supreme power, etc.

Thus, allowing Lancer to be able to kill Berserker, since God Hand's immunity and stock of lives would be ignored.
I am not sure about this. I have heard of the temporary power-boosting rune, but this is the first time I have heard of Lancer's rune has the power to negate/dispel God Hand.

Even Zero Lancer's Gae Dearg only works on enchantments and materials shaped by mana, it is unlikely that mere runes can negate a curse on the magnitude of God Hand.

I am tempted to say Rule Breaker, but then again a stab from that we know is going to dissolve the contract.

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 7:20 pm
by KratosIrving
It's listed here: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_ ... ells#Runes

It's the last one in the Rune section too. Of course since it's a wiki it's debatable that it exists, but I liked the sound of it so I went ahead and used it. Although, I figured that even an with enhanced strength Gae Bolg wouldn't be able get through God Hand, so I changed it to just nullify God Hand for my purposes.

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 7:48 pm
by Keeper of Gil's Vault
I think that is the temporary power-boost rune I was talking about. It does not dispel stuff, I believe it is a short term rank-up for your Noble Phantasm. Since Gae Bolg has a low rank that cannot pierce God Hand, with the assistance of the rune, it will pierce God Hand.

However, the scenario still looks grim for Lancer. After you pierce God Hand, you have to succeed in the Luck roll, and I think someone mentioned Berserker has uber Luck. After that, if you manage to kill Berserker once with the trick, God Hand will likely to develop resistance to it.

The only way out of this scenario is that, Lancer one-shot kills Berserker 12 times. However, given that a boosted Gae Bolg only narrowly exceeds the threshold of God Hand, and being impaled by it did not seem to bother Sabre very much (a bit exaggerated, but you get the idea), Berserker would not be really concerned at all when fighting Lancer.

Death match 1:
Lancer tries hard and takes a couple of lives. Berserker proceeds to win in a war of attrition. Lancer dies valiantly, Berserker then kills you, the Master.
The end.

Death match 2:
Lancer tries hard and takes a couple of lives. You trample over Lancer's honour and use the mantra to command Lancer to Gae Bolg Ilya. You succeed.
Berserker still remains due to: large mana reservoir + the will to avenge Ilya + character property granted by Nasu (demonstrated in UBW and to some extend HF) + pure GARness
Berserker then unleashes a fit of frenzy slaying both Lancer and you, the Master, before disappearing (well, he has one full day to chase you down before going poof, if not longer).
The end.

There is a good reason for most servants to leave Berserker alone...

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 8:48 pm
by Vhailor
Well, even the chances to kill just once Berserker are very light. I don't think Garzerker will wait Lancer to GoB just like Saber and the guy has uber stats !

Posted: February 25th, 2009, 9:04 pm
by Mkilbride
Lancer would charm Illya and make Illya fall in lurve with him. She'd call Zerker off of Lancer, and Lancer could get Illya yo do whatever he wanted, including make Zerker do dances and do the dishes. Lancer is Irish people, yer forgetting that. Being Irish along is enough to win any fight...or heart ;)