Lancer vs. Berserker? [spoilers]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Unread postby Shourai » February 27th, 2009, 2:35 pm

Kotomine's command was rather complex; the Command Mantra's power might have diminished because of that. And also, Command Mantra's strength is dependent on the Master's aptitude. Rin is clearly a better magus than Kotomine, of course her command would have more authority over a Servant.
Shourai
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread postby Vhailor » February 27th, 2009, 3:18 pm

I think i already see a debat about it on the forum but the spear of death flight (so Gae Bolg version 2) still aim for the heart. It is said during the narration and the comments of Cuchulain after seeing it blocked highlights this point.
Vhailor
Addict
 
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread postby Shourai » February 27th, 2009, 3:35 pm

Vhailor wrote:I think i already see a debat about it on the forum but the spear of death flight (so Gae Bolg version 2) still aim for the heart. It is said during the narration and the comments of Cuchulain after seeing it blocked highlights this point.
The narration is just for dramatic effect. What you have to pay attention is the status screen. The status screen clearly says otherwise. There is no way you can hit someone's heart with a grenade launcher (s/he'd be obliterated first before the bullet ram through him/her). It's as simple as that. (and the narration can even also be interpreted as "it's a lance which always pierce the heart, but can also pierce through everything. and now the latter function is utilised")
Shourai
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 3:53 pm

anyway, lancer did get serious after archer asked him to feed his honour to the dogs..death flight have more destructive capabilities compared to gae bolg and thus being more dangerous in a way..if it hit archer, archer's definitely dead..he does not use death flight because of rin..

anyway...where did berserker go??lolXD..this should be lancer vs ????
-Shiki-
Addict
 
Posts: 110
Joined: October 16th, 2008, 6:19 pm

Unread postby Vhailor » February 27th, 2009, 4:05 pm

Well, this is not the subjet to discuss this point so i ll just let it go or another endless debat will pop.
Just in case concerning God Hand, all attack equal or below rank B are nullyfied. Someone just said that rank B attack are enough to bypass God Hand. That's why Lancer will need to use a rune to upgrade his stats (spear or force, i don't know.).
Vhailor
Addict
 
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 8:59 pm

nobaka wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).


Because he was ordered to 'test their abilities' and then retreat without really fighting them, his power was actually limited by the command spell. This is noted in UBW when he faces off against Archer outside the Church. Also, with Luck Rank E, Archer's got no real chance in hell of evading Gae Bolg's thrust. The only reason he was able to avoid the Death Flight is because it doesn't invert causality. In a 1v1 no holds barred battle, Archer would lose, even with Unlimited Blade Works, simply due to the fact that his heart WILL be pierced by Gae Bolg's curse. The only reason Lancer was avoiding using it outside the Church is because he said he wanted to drag Archer in front of Rin and make him apologize.


As I said before, just USING the first Gae Bolg SHOULD be a move that is from his full power because it is a powerful and efficient. A sure-fire hit to the heart is a very powerful move. Even if the servant has high luck, the servant will still be hurt by it for quite some time. I was questioning why Lancer was able to even USE the Gae Bolg, if the command spell restricts him FROM his full power and commands Lancer to never kill a servant. I was also questioning why Lancer can nonchalantly use Gae Bolg when he is told to never kill and always test out the servants.

It confused me because Lancer is disobeying the command spell if he follows through the attack. The reason I say "nonchalantly use" is that Lancer is seems to be using it EVERY fight in the prologue. He wasn't even pressured into using Gae Bolg when he fought Archer. Rin is also keeping note about how impressive Archer is with his charge and his swords, but it should not be enough to pressure Lancer into using the Gae Bolg and disobeying the command spell. Lancer is only confused about Archer's swords and a bit irritated that Archer is using swords instead of a bow.

That is why I am confused.

Although, I think we have strayed from the original argument, did Lancer use the Gae Bolg on Berserker? If Lancer had reason to fire Gae Bolg on both Archer and Saber, why not Berserker? And if Berserker is fine, then Gae Bolg is not very effective to Berserker. I have recieved a few answers but none of them were enough to convince me.

So to summarize my questions it would be this:
1. Did Lancer use the Gae Bolg on Berserker?
2. How can Lancer use the Gae Bolg, while Lancer knows it is pretty much a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants), when Lancer is commanded not to kill servants?
3. How strong is the command spell placed on Lancer?
4. What is Lancer's punishment for disobeying the command spell? Although, I like Masterori's idea and I think that is the most likely answer.
5. Why would Lancer disobey the command spell, or is he even "disobeying" the command spell?

The questions 3 and 4 and 5 will help me answer question 2. Question 1 will help me answer the question if Gae Bolg would even effect Berserker and that will add to the argument about how effective would Lancer be if he fought against Berserker. People had different answers stating that the Lancer would not use Gae Bolg because Lancer would just run away and Berserker had no reason to chase him down. But I am still confused because Lancer clearly used Gae Bolg on Archer, who is not a threat based on the reasons I made in the first paragraph. If Lancer used it on the nonthreatening Archer, then wouldn't Lancer use Gae Bolg on Berserker, who is a bigger threat?

Please bear with me as I go through the mechanics of Lancer's command spell and Berserker's God Hand.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby nobaka » February 27th, 2009, 11:40 pm

Gae Bolg does not require Lancer's full power. Not even close. It's stated in the weapon/NP screen that it is a low mana usage attack, allowing it to be used multiple times without rest. Lancer's 'power' that would have been sealed would be sort of like a stat reduction. Think of it as all of his stats (except Luck, I'm assuming) going down one rank. He can still use Gae Bolg, but he is not nearly as fast, strong, or durable as he would be normally.

Your questions:
1. Probably not. If he had, Berserker would have had 11 lives going into the rest of the story, and I'm assuming that Lancer would have hit because he's awesome, despite Berserker's ridiculous Luck.
2. If I remember correctly, getting pierced through the heart does not 'kill' a Servant. Just hurts them a lot. Given a proper mana supply and time to heal, they can recover from Gae Bolg. Example, Archer was nearly decapitated by Saber. He didn't die, though. Just out of action until he fought Berserker.
3. As it's not a very specific command, I'd assume the spell isn't TOO strong. Remember, the strength of the spell is directly related to the command. Saber explains this to Shirou in the game. Of course, this is still relative to a spell that binds a Heroic Spirit (a truly formidable existence in its own right) to the whims of the wielder, and even allows the magus to warp space/time (in the case of summoning the Servant to their side from elsewhere). So, strong, but definitely not full power.
4. I'm pretty sure that a Servant isn't physically capable of defying a Command Spell (at full power, anyway). Perhaps with a more general command, it may be possible to bend the boundaries of the command itself. Like, from 'observe their abilities and then retreat' to ' observe their abilities and then retreat, but if you HAVE to kill them, you can'. Or something.
5. Because Lancer thinks it's bullshit. He states multiple times that it's boring and cowardly. He loves a good fight. There's no question about any of those.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby Geburah san » February 28th, 2009, 1:32 am

A sucessful Gae Bolg CAN kill a servant. Only Lancer endured his hearth being pierced due to his battle continuation, and even berserker on UBW was finally struck down with a blow to the hearth.
In any case if remember well Archer was damaged badly on the torso, and when Saber was about to decapitate him Rin used the comand seal.

About the lancer issue, its stated on the game that the "fight once then dont kill and retreat" is afecting Lancer (against Archer on the church his atacks are much more faster than before for example)
Most probably downgraded his stats similar to Archer if he disobeyed Rin (perhaps Rin is better magus but that order was more concrete)
About the runes it seems that they can boost Gae Bolg to A rank so they are nothing to joke at.
Standard Gae Bolg atack can be used 7 times without recharge, but that atack only will kill Berserker once (if he doesnt pass his insane luck salvation roll)
The thrown version can kill Berserker a few times, but in any case Berserker has a lives stock too great for Lancer to bring it down alone.

In my opinion he could kill Berserker 7-8 times at most if hes lucky (Lancer is slighty superior to Archer vombat wise, and Archer killed him 5 times so its a good reference point)
Geburah san
Posting more than n00bs
 
Posts: 23
Joined: April 12th, 2008, 2:31 pm

Unread postby Watashimo » February 28th, 2009, 1:56 am

Yes, if a Servant's heart or brain is destroyed, they die. A Servant needs a supply of mana and an anchor point to stay in this world. The anchor points are the brain and the heart IIRC. This is why decapitating a Servant is the quickest way to kill a Servant (aside from killing the Master), because it severs the link between the heart and brain with the least amount of defense to go through. I know its something like that. It may be a little incorrect as I don't remember the exact details, but I do know that the heart and brain are essential to the survival of Servants. Lancer's battle continuation skill basically allows him to keep his form for a short time as long as one of the anchor points are still in tact.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 28th, 2009, 2:27 am

Geburah san wrote:A sucessful Gae Bolg CAN kill a servant. Only Lancer endured his hearth being pierced due to his battle continuation, and even berserker on UBW was finally struck down with a blow to the hearth.
In any case if remember well Archer was damaged badly on the torso, and when Saber was about to decapitate him Rin used the comand seal.

About the lancer issue, its stated on the game that the "fight once then dont kill and retreat" is afecting Lancer (against Archer on the church his atacks are much more faster than before for example)
Most probably downgraded his stats similar to Archer if he disobeyed Rin (perhaps Rin is better magus but that order was more concrete)
About the runes it seems that they can boost Gae Bolg to A rank so they are nothing to joke at.
Standard Gae Bolg atack can be used 7 times without recharge, but that atack only will kill Berserker once (if he doesnt pass his insane luck salvation roll)
The thrown version can kill Berserker a few times, but in any case Berserker has a lives stock too great for Lancer to bring it down alone.

In my opinion he could kill Berserker 7-8 times at most if hes lucky (Lancer is slighty superior to Archer combat wise, and Archer killed him 5 times so its a good reference point)


Using Archer as a reference point is not very accurate in this situation. Archer is much more versatile because of the abundance of weapons he can produce. Lancer's Gae Bolg is efficient but not necessarily versatile. Lancer is stronger than Archer (outside of UBW, although I don't know how the fight will go inside UBW). But it is almost like saying scissors is stronger than paper. While it is true that paper will lose, paper can still beat the rock, which is effective against scissors. Lancer is like scissors while Archer is like Paper. (Its not really a good analogy for this situation but it is the best I can come up with.)

Just wondering, when does Lancer's runes upgrade his attacks to A level?

nobaka wrote:Your questions:
1. Probably not. If he had, Berserker would have had 11 lives going into the rest of the story, and I'm assuming that Lancer would have hit because he's awesome, despite Berserker's ridiculous Luck.
2. If I remember correctly, getting pierced through the heart does not 'kill' a Servant. Just hurts them a lot. Given a proper mana supply and time to heal, they can recover from Gae Bolg. Example, Archer was nearly decapitated by Saber. He didn't die, though. Just out of action until he fought Berserker.
3. As it's not a very specific command, I'd assume the spell isn't TOO strong. Remember, the strength of the spell is directly related to the command. Saber explains this to Shirou in the game. Of course, this is still relative to a spell that binds a Heroic Spirit (a truly formidable existence in its own right) to the whims of the wielder, and even allows the magus to warp space/time (in the case of summoning the Servant to their side from elsewhere). So, strong, but definitely not full power.
4. I'm pretty sure that a Servant isn't physically capable of defying a Command Spell (at full power, anyway). Perhaps with a more general command, it may be possible to bend the boundaries of the command itself. Like, from 'observe their abilities and then retreat' to ' observe their abilities and then retreat, but if you HAVE to kill them, you can'. Or something.
5. Because Lancer thinks it's bullshit. He states multiple times that it's boring and cowardly. He loves a good fight. There's no question about any of those.


Counter- argument

1. Note that this question is based on assumption that Lancer has met Berserker before the war. IF Lancer did, I think it is possible that he did use Gae Bolg on Berserker due to the reasons I listed in my earlier posts. IF that is true, in hindsight, we can already see that Berserker never died before the war. Based on this assumption, Gae Bolg is ineffective towards Berserker because of his high luck or some other reason we don't know.

Too bad awesomeness can't change someone's luck. :(

2. Other people already stated what was wrong with this answer.

3. That sounds right.

4. That's not answering question 4.

5. Just because Lancer thinks its bullshit, does not necessarily mean that he can defy the spell. I can't jump up in the air and fly because I think the law of gravity is bullshit. It is hard to think of a loophole for the order, "don't kill any servant you have met for the first time", when your objective is to "kill that servant you met for the first time".
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby -Shiki- » February 28th, 2009, 5:24 am

the order included RETREAT..so, retreating alive is his main priority after testing other servants strength..even if he have to kill the servant..its the matter of importance..staying alive is more important than not killing the enemy.. see my point? thats why, he can execute gae bolg..if the order is 'never kill any servant in a fight', he wouldnt be able to use gae bolg..restriction from the command speel would be inability to perform the attack, hampering his movement, etc..reducing stats?dont think so..he holds back on his own instead of the command spell doing so earlier in the story..he should know well what would happen if he tried all out when he dont need to..
-Shiki-
Addict
 
Posts: 110
Joined: October 16th, 2008, 6:19 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 28th, 2009, 7:30 am

-Shiki- wrote:the order included RETREAT..so, retreating alive is his main priority after testing other servants strength..even if he have to kill the servant..its the matter of importance..staying alive is more important than not killing the enemy.. see my point? thats why, he can execute gae bolg..if the order is 'never kill any servant in a fight', he wouldnt be able to use gae bolg..restriction from the command speel would be inability to perform the attack, hampering his movement, etc..reducing stats?dont think so..he holds back on his own instead of the command spell doing so earlier in the story..he should know well what would happen if he tried all out when he dont need to..


I need to play the arc again to verify the command. But if running away has a priority over killing someone, then it would make sense why he would be able to use Gae Bolg. But I think Lancer does experience a stat decrease. Lancer does say that he felt relieved in his second fight with Archer so I can see the command spell can weaken him. It would effectively answer some of my questions, if the command put a priority chain.

If retreating is in the command, it doesn't explain why Lancer used Gae Bolg on Archer, who Lancer did not need to kill to escape from.

I still disagree that Gae Bolg is not a move that comes from his full strength. It is true that it does not take a lot of mana, but does not mean that it is not one of his strongest attacks. The Gae Bolg is a NOBLE PHANTASM. I find it hard to believe that one of his two Noble Phantasm is not one of his strongest moves. They made a comparison with Lancer and a sniper gun. A sniper gun would be most useful at a far distance. So would a sniper go right next to a person to kill the person? No. It would be strongest far away, even though the sniper has the safety of reloading and firing multiple times. He would be using his strongest move from that distance, and he could use it multiple times. That is why I think the 1st Gae Bolg is one of Lancer's stronger moves.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Masterori » February 28th, 2009, 10:52 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
nobaka wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).


Because he was ordered to 'test their abilities' and then retreat without really fighting them, his power was actually limited by the command spell. This is noted in UBW when he faces off against Archer outside the Church. Also, with Luck Rank E, Archer's got no real chance in hell of evading Gae Bolg's thrust. The only reason he was able to avoid the Death Flight is because it doesn't invert causality. In a 1v1 no holds barred battle, Archer would lose, even with Unlimited Blade Works, simply due to the fact that his heart WILL be pierced by Gae Bolg's curse. The only reason Lancer was avoiding using it outside the Church is because he said he wanted to drag Archer in front of Rin and make him apologize.


As I said before, just USING the first Gae Bolg SHOULD be a move that is from his full power because it is a powerful and efficient. A sure-fire hit to the heart is a very powerful move. Even if the servant has high luck, the servant will still be hurt by it for quite some time. I was questioning why Lancer was able to even USE the Gae Bolg, if the command spell restricts him FROM his full power and commands Lancer to never kill a servant. I was also questioning why Lancer can nonchalantly use Gae Bolg when he is told to never kill and always test out the servants.

It confused me because Lancer is disobeying the command spell if he follows through the attack. The reason I say "nonchalantly use" is that Lancer is seems to be using it EVERY fight in the prologue. He wasn't even pressured into using Gae Bolg when he fought Archer. Rin is also keeping note about how impressive Archer is with his charge and his swords, but it should not be enough to pressure Lancer into using the Gae Bolg and disobeying the command spell. Lancer is only confused about Archer's swords and a bit irritated that Archer is using swords instead of a bow.

That is why I am confused.

Although, I think we have strayed from the original argument, did Lancer use the Gae Bolg on Berserker? If Lancer had reason to fire Gae Bolg on both Archer and Saber, why not Berserker? And if Berserker is fine, then Gae Bolg is not very effective to Berserker. I have recieved a few answers but none of them were enough to convince me.

So to summarize my questions it would be this:
1. Did Lancer use the Gae Bolg on Berserker?
2. How can Lancer use the Gae Bolg, while Lancer knows it is pretty much a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants), when Lancer is commanded not to kill servants?
3. How strong is the command spell placed on Lancer?
4. What is Lancer's punishment for disobeying the command spell? Although, I like Masterori's idea and I think that is the most likely answer.
5. Why would Lancer disobey the command spell, or is he even "disobeying" the command spell?

The questions 3 and 4 and 5 will help me answer question 2. Question 1 will help me answer the question if Gae Bolg would even effect Berserker and that will add to the argument about how effective would Lancer be if he fought against Berserker. People had different answers stating that the Lancer would not use Gae Bolg because Lancer would just run away and Berserker had no reason to chase him down. But I am still confused because Lancer clearly used Gae Bolg on Archer, who is not a threat based on the reasons I made in the first paragraph. If Lancer used it on the nonthreatening Archer, then wouldn't Lancer use Gae Bolg on Berserker, who is a bigger threat?

Please bear with me as I go through the mechanics of Lancer's command spell and Berserker's God Hand.


These answers are basically from my previous post

1. Lancer has fought every servant in the holy war or should have anyway, Whether he used gae blog depends. Even if he used it it's likely it'll miss if it hits lancer without knowing god hand would have had him attacked halted as soon it touches berserker, Retreat then might have been a smart idea since with one of your most trusted maneuvers failed without a reason.

2. As I stated with my previous post, lancer doesn't see that a simple gae bolg would easily kill a enemy so easily. Don't forgot they are heroes strong humans that ever lived lancer himself is some what arrogant on personality, ( Nothing of gils level ) he has the right to be too. If he was called into the war then he must think he's previous enemies fought in his life time to be nothing compared to them undoubtfully with the luck factor at least one should have dodged it. And luck factor would probably be hidden to the people, Heck can we measure our luck?. So gae bolg-ing to him is just part of battle, thus won't easily kill the servants.

3. All depends on the command used. Facts we know it's not even as strong as rins on archer, as rin is the better magus and archer stated it shouldn't have been that powerful if it wasn't rin was a magus of her might. It's a long term command thus it wasn't that strong in the first place, as stated by archer & Proven it weakened on the second battle of lancer vs archer ( He comments he was more free ). In the end it probably had the power of about the one rin casted on archer, Might have been weaker since rin is a better magus.

4. Well since you agree but might as well type it anyway, Archer stated he would feel like he dropped a grade if he disobeyed rin. Bit stronger or a bit less stronger ether way it'd go weaker as time goes as the long term command effect goes down with time, These things are more of mental damage. Saber was feeling pain in the mind no scars came from her body, it's more of mental damage.

5. Theoretically he isn't disobeying the command if he doesn't think it would end the servants. And I don't think the command would allow loop holes, Long term commands are more of commands to the servants mind. While instant ones might have physical effect like speed boost or it's just hidden potential activated within the servants mind through the power of the command spell, Humans only do use 10% of our brain. In the end it would allow loop holes it's a command to the servants mind thus any loop hole would be covered by a anti loop thought thought of the servant themselves and back to my point 1 he doesn't think it's a killer move thus not defying.
Masterori
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 48
Joined: November 13th, 2008, 3:48 am

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 28th, 2009, 12:11 pm

Masterori wrote:1. Lancer has fought every servant in the holy war or should have anyway, Whether he used gae blog depends. Even if he used it it's likely it'll miss if it hits lancer without knowing god hand would have had him attacked halted as soon it touches berserker, Retreat then might have been a smart idea since with one of your most trusted maneuvers failed without a reason.

2. As I stated with my previous post, lancer doesn't see that a simple gae bolg would easily kill a enemy so easily. Don't forgot they are heroes strong humans that ever lived lancer himself is some what arrogant on personality, ( Nothing of gils level ) he has the right to be too. If he was called into the war then he must think he's previous enemies fought in his life time to be nothing compared to them undoubtfully with the luck factor at least one should have dodged it. And luck factor would probably be hidden to the people, Heck can we measure our luck?. So gae bolg-ing to him is just part of battle, thus won't easily kill the servants.

3. All depends on the command used. Facts we know it's not even as strong as rins on archer, as rin is the better magus and archer stated it shouldn't have been that powerful if it wasn't rin was a magus of her might. It's a long term command thus it wasn't that strong in the first place, as stated by archer & Proven it weakened on the second battle of lancer vs archer ( He comments he was more free ). In the end it probably had the power of about the one rin casted on archer, Might have been weaker since rin is a better magus.

4. Well since you agree but might as well type it anyway, Archer stated he would feel like he dropped a grade if he disobeyed rin. Bit stronger or a bit less stronger ether way it'd go weaker as time goes as the long term command effect goes down with time, These things are more of mental damage. Saber was feeling pain in the mind no scars came from her body, it's more of mental damage.

5. Theoretically he isn't disobeying the command if he doesn't think it would end the servants. And I don't think the command would allow loop holes, Long term commands are more of commands to the servants mind. While instant ones might have physical effect like speed boost or it's just hidden potential activated within the servants mind through the power of the command spell, Humans only do use 10% of our brain. In the end it would allow loop holes it's a command to the servants mind thus any loop hole would be covered by a anti loop thought thought of the servant themselves and back to my point 1 he doesn't think it's a killer move thus not defying.


1. The reason I ask that question is to find out how Lancer would do against Berserker. Some people believed that Gae Bolg would effect him. I don't think it is very likely for it to work. So if Lancer already uses it on Berserker, then the Gae Bolg would be ineffective and it would be some evidence that that is true. Although, I guess it is impossible to find out in the end because we never see that happen.

2. I guess I have to take your word for it. I was kinda uneasy with that answer because you have to get evidence from the psychology of Lancer instead of actual events. Looking into the psychology of Lancer is not the best place to get evidence from because no one ever really knows what someone else is thinking. But I can't see any other way how he can use the Gae Bolg without disobeying the command spell. So I just have to accept that answer until I find a more convincing reason.

3.4. I agree, that makes sense.

5. Once again, I just have to take your word for it. Because we will never know what was going on in Lancer's head. I guess I just have to accept this theory if I don't want to see a plot hole.

By the way, people do not use only 10% of their brain. While it is true the human brain is very complex and the field of psychology is a fairly new science compared to the other sciences, we have found out the basic functions for each part of the brain. Each part controls a different function and we are constantly stimulating them through daily activities and what not. A perfect example would be the famous cortical Homunculus model. A model that helps us display the primary motor cortex. The model is a good model that shows which part of the body is controlled better or more sensitive. The bigger the body part is on the model, the more sensitive that body part is or shows how much control we have over that body part.
Here's a picture of the model- I put spoiler tags cause it is kinda weird looking




If you want more info on that, just go to the wikipedia page.
If you are interested in this stuff, I suggest you read a manga called Homunculus by Hideo Yamamoto.

My point is that that whole section in the brain is used for only sensory and motor skills. And it is not just that part of the brain! There are many other places in the brain that complement or help use those skills. That section alone may not take too much space, but the brain is doing even more than that. That is just one part of the brain! And that part of the brain will take up most of that 10 % you are talking about. The whole brain is working together and helping us think, mature, regulate the body, understand space orientation, and a whole lot more! So people are not using 10% of their brains, but using a good portion. Every structure would be used but some would be used more than others. If you are talking about the human brain's potential, then it is POSSIBLE that we are using 10% of our full potential. But think about this, how would we gauge a person's potential? How can we get an exact percentage like 10% when everyone is so different? People have different potential in different categories; otherwise, everyone would be the same.

I am getting WAY OFF topic here but I just want to put a little food for thought out here.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby -Shiki- » February 28th, 2009, 1:31 pm

its a buffet already :lol:

btw, lancer was suprised when saber manage to survive gae bolg..that doesnt show that he thinks that they are suposed to be able to dodge..he expected a KILL..
-Shiki-
Addict
 
Posts: 110
Joined: October 16th, 2008, 6:19 pm

Unread postby Watashimo » February 28th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Actually the idea of only using 10% of our brains was a misinterpretation. We are using our entire brain, just different parts at different times. If we didn't use our full brain, then our brain wouldn't have become larger and more complex as we evolved. The body doesn't create body parts that aren't used. Body parts that were used at one point but are now obsolete do exist though (such as the appendix). Science has showed us that as humans progressed and evolved, our brains expanded and became more complex, this would not have happened if we extra brain power we weren't using.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Shourai » February 28th, 2009, 3:12 pm

I love how this topic derails into human brain discussion.... >_>

Back to Lancer vs Berserker, guys. Don't wanna see a padlock in this thread, do we?
Shourai
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 218
Joined: March 15th, 2008, 8:30 am

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 28th, 2009, 8:41 pm

-Shiki- wrote:its a buffet already :lol:

btw, lancer was suprised when saber manage to survive gae bolg..that doesnt show that he thinks that they are suposed to be able to dodge..he expected a KILL..


Oh yeah. :shock:

I totally forgot about his reaction. Aw man... that means I'm back to square one. :(
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Masterori » March 1st, 2009, 2:08 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
1. The reason I ask that question is to find out how Lancer would do against Berserker. Some people believed that Gae Bolg would effect him. I don't think it is very likely for it to work. So if Lancer already uses it on Berserker, then the Gae Bolg would be ineffective and it would be some evidence that that is true. Although, I guess it is impossible to find out in the end because we never see that happen.

2. I guess I have to take your word for it. I was kinda uneasy with that answer because you have to get evidence from the psychology of Lancer instead of actual events. Looking into the psychology of Lancer is not the best place to get evidence from because no one ever really knows what someone else is thinking. But I can't see any other way how he can use the Gae Bolg without disobeying the command spell. So I just have to accept that answer until I find a more convincing reason.

3.4. I agree, that makes sense.

5. Once again, I just have to take your word for it. Because we will never know what was going on in Lancer's head. I guess I just have to accept this theory if I don't want to see a plot hole.

By the way, people do not use only 10% of their brain. While it is true the human brain is very complex and the field of psychology is a fairly new science compared to the other sciences, we have found out the basic functions for each part of the brain. Each part controls a different function and we are constantly stimulating them through daily activities and what not. A perfect example would be the famous cortical Homunculus model. A model that helps us display the primary motor cortex. The model is a good model that shows which part of the body is controlled better or more sensitive. The bigger the body part is on the model, the more sensitive that body part is or shows how much control we have over that body part.
Here's a picture of the model- I put spoiler tags cause it is kinda weird looking




If you want more info on that, just go to the wikipedia page.
If you are interested in this stuff, I suggest you read a manga called Homunculus by Hideo Yamamoto.

My point is that that whole section in the brain is used for only sensory and motor skills. And it is not just that part of the brain! There are many other places in the brain that complement or help use those skills. That section alone may not take too much space, but the brain is doing even more than that. That is just one part of the brain! And that part of the brain will take up most of that 10 % you are talking about. The whole brain is working together and helping us think, mature, regulate the body, understand space orientation, and a whole lot more! So people are not using 10% of their brains, but using a good portion. Every structure would be used but some would be used more than others. If you are talking about the human brain's potential, then it is POSSIBLE that we are using 10% of our full potential. But think about this, how would we gauge a person's potential? How can we get an exact percentage like 10% when everyone is so different? People have different potential in different categories; otherwise, everyone would be the same.

I am getting WAY OFF topic here but I just want to put a little food for thought out here.


1. Well god hand would in theory block it if lancer doesn't know of it's existance

My bad I always thought humans only used 10% of their brain.. And that picture did indeed put me off my lunch. I'll check out the manga thanks.

I've already predicted and added it to my calculation, from my interpretation of that scene. Lancer was angry but wasn't suprised, Notice how lancer just even more annoyed then before instead of " What the.... It should have hit " like reaction. That is due to he thought it'd cause more damage then so, even though he thinks it won't end easy he would still expect some type of damage to be dealt.
Masterori
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 48
Joined: November 13th, 2008, 3:48 am

Unread postby -Shiki- » March 1st, 2009, 4:21 am

Masterori wrote:
I've already predicted and added it to my calculation, from my interpretation of that scene. Lancer was angry but wasn't suprised, Notice how lancer just even more annoyed then before instead of " What the.... It should have hit " like reaction. That is due to he thought it'd cause more damage then so, even though he thinks it won't end easy he would still expect some type of damage to be dealt.


he WAS surprised..he said something like
you evaded my sure kill spear..saber then finds out his identity from what he said and saber's injury enabled him to escape.
i magine you snipe someone's head and he still is able to live..same thing going on..
if that ain't surprised, i wonder what will surprise him.. :lol:
-Shiki-
Addict
 
Posts: 110
Joined: October 16th, 2008, 6:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests