Lancer vs. Berserker? [spoilers]

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Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 5:20 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
Watashimo wrote:What I'm saying is the command spell should be able to detect intent, and when Lancer puts the intention of killing into his attack, it should stop it :P


Then I have to ask, what is the deal with Lancer if he is able to use Gae Bolg. Because this is going to turn into a plothole. :(


It already is one imo. I just kind of ignored it.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 5:35 am

Like I said, it has to do with the fact that the command was rather non-specific. There were no explicit time restriction or target. Like Rin said, time restriction is important: one-time, specific command is much much more powerful than vague, over-time command.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 26th, 2009, 5:38 am

Then if I told Lancer he should do a strip tease every time he meets a female servant or master, the effect would be weak, since it wasn't specific?

Off topic, but wouldn't that be HILARIOUS?

Archer VS. Lancer

Lancer spots Rin.

Lancer does what I described.

Epic Lulz ensue.
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Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 5:39 am

Really? I thought it was rather specific. Broken down its "Fight Each Servant" and "Do Not Kill."
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 5:47 am

I think a specific command will be like:

What: Kill
Target: Yourself
When: Now, this instant

If you put Kotomine's scout command under scrutiny:

What: Do not kill
Target: Servants (Who? There are six others. Also, there are random wandering wraith like Assassin. Command spells are spells, they don't think very well)
When: First encounter (Today? Next week? A couple of months?)

I think it all depends on the degree of uncertainty in your command, the more uncertainties there are, the weaker the binding effect.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 6:42 am

But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 26th, 2009, 7:14 am

He'd be pissed because in his mind is always "RETREAT! RETREAT!" instead of "BLOW HIM AWAY! BLOW HIM AWAY!"

Also, Keeper got it pretty well.
IMO, the second Lancer asked to stop the fight between him and Saber, was the second that first encounter ended.
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Unread postby Rikh » February 26th, 2009, 8:34 am

He used all his runes in HF... and he still got eaten by the shadow

His runes are not really that powerful... they can only sway a fight in small amounts, most of his ability is Gae Bolg
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Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 2:01 pm

Rikh wrote:He used all his runes in HF... and he still got eaten by the shadow

His runes are not really that powerful... they can only sway a fight in small amounts, most of his ability is Gae Bolg


When did this occur? I don't remember it ever saying he even used a rune in HF.
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Unread postby Levethix » February 26th, 2009, 3:31 pm

Hmm.. I don't think it matters how powerful the runes are. Just the simple fact he won't use them unless he has too.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 5:14 pm

Watashimo wrote:
Rikh wrote:He used all his runes in HF... and he still got eaten by the shadow

His runes are not really that powerful... they can only sway a fight in small amounts, most of his ability is Gae Bolg


When did this occur? I don't remember it ever saying he even used a rune in HF.


Don't quite remember the details, because I was focusing on how True Assassin crushed Lancer's heart. I think Lancer used a set of runes to deploy a personal boundary field in an attempt to hold off the attack from Sakura. All in vain though, Angra Mainyu's curse was just too potent. .
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » February 26th, 2009, 5:45 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Then if I told Lancer he should do a strip tease every time he meets a female servant or master, the effect would be weak, since it wasn't specific?
...
...
Archer VS. Lancer

Lancer spots Rin.

Lancer does what I described.



I just wanna point out what could have happenned if you commanded that..

..
Archer VS Lancer..

Lancer spots Rin...

Lancer Fights Archer...

Lancer retreats after the fight, finds some secluded place (of his choosing i might add).....

... Lancer strips..


~~~

Coz from what i see it..

told Lancer he should do a strip tease every time he meets a female servant or master


To do A strip, every time he meets a female servent/master.

Meaning that he would be forced to do ONE, not more not less for EVERY female servent/master he meets.
... Also meaning that he would do TWO strips if he were to meet up with Rider/Sakura... and note that the lenght of the strip is not commanded.

Second... Define 'meet'...
Basically.. Lancer only 'spots' Rin... To 'meet' is to have a previous arrangement or sorts... or at least, an exchange of particulars, or converse...
And since Rin is surely reluctant to tell her identity and all.. One could debate that it was more of an 'encounter' instead of a 'meeting'...

Third... the words 'every time' could be seen as a 'word count' and not as a 'time/place'... Meaning.. If Lancer would see it in such a way... He could choose to strip somewhere that is secluded. As long as the amount of strip = the amount of girls he meets.
Simply because some words are not there.. such as...

told Lancer he should do a strip tease every time he meets a female servant or master, in front of her, making sure that Lancer had gotten hold of her/their FULL attention


Or.. Just to add some more 'anti-loop holes'...

told Lancer he should do a strip tease every time he meets a female servant or master, in front of her, making sure that Lancer had gotten hold of her/their FULL attention, IN THAT EXACT MOMENT, halting ANYTIHING that he is about to do until the 4minutes strip is done.



From my point of view.. command spells are used coz the servents REFUSE to do as they are 'asked/told'... Therefor.. For every command spell that is used. The servent would NATURALLY try to find loopholes in the command. Some, there are loopholes.. For others.. there are not...
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 6:52 am

TheRedArcher wrote:But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).


dont forget kotomine did add the command survive and retreat..he cant escape unless he somehow paralysed his enemy or killed them..technically, he was holding back on his own since if he tried to go all out, he will get restricted..that explains his relieve when fighting archer in UBW without any command to 'survive and retreat'..
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 8:25 am

-Shiki- wrote:
TheRedArcher wrote:But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).


dont forget kotomine did add the command survive and retreat..he cant escape unless he somehow paralysed his enemy or killed them..technically, he was holding back on his own since if he tried to go all out, he will get restricted..that explains his relieve when fighting archer in UBW without any command to 'survive and retreat'..


But the thing is that Lancer still would have disobeyed the command spell if he KILLED the servant. He should know that the Gae Bolg is a like a sniper gun. He was still going to KILL Archer and Saber, which means he was going to use a move that comes from his full power. If he was to kill him, the command spell should not be that great to Lancer if he can nonchalantly use the sure-kill Gae Bolg move. That means that he should have no qualms with using his full power since the command spell does not mean that much to him.

I am not trying to make an argument, I am just really confused on this matter. And all doubts must be removed from my mind in order for me to move on.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 27th, 2009, 8:37 am

I suspect the Command Spell would only take effect after the action had been done, as well as prevent Lancer to execute deadly blows in a certain number to the opposing Servant. That's why he cannot be stopped if he decided to use one-shot-one-kill move.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 9:00 am

Shourai wrote:I suspect the Command Spell would only take effect after the action had been done, as well as prevent Lancer to execute deadly blows in a certain number to the opposing Servant. That's why he cannot be stopped if he decided to use one-shot-one-kill move.


But the thing is that the command spell was put there so that the servants will LISTEN to the master. If the effects come after, then the command spell doesn't really prevent anyone from doing anything.
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Unread postby Masterori » February 27th, 2009, 9:07 am

In the end it all depends on the context of the command spell. As the command spell rin used on archer it wasn't very powerful even with a magus of rins might, Archer himself states that the command spell should even be that strong ( which is not strong at all... ). And if the command spell was so powerful that it could alter fates then in fate rin wouldn't have to had call archer back when he was slashed by saber she could just said recover or win. Not to mention long term commands the effects are lowered thus kotomines command must have been not specific enough

In lancers mind be probably just thought this is a battle and gae blog-ing is part of it and the opponent wouldn't die so easily, He probably never thought just that would win so easily. They are heroes and lancer in his time probably thought tons of which could be called heroes not of the caliber of the fate stay night ones though I'm sure there are at least some that avoided being impaled in the heart they arn't even as strong as the fate stay night heroes thus he probably ever thought that would kill them easily. I don't lancer himself knows the luck based attribute of the attack it's more of a hidden status in battle

And doesn't lancer hate kotomine because of.....

He killed bazett, I remember seeing the fate/ tiger colosseum upper in his storyline he was holding her body looking bighearted or even tearful
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 9:19 am

Masterori wrote:In the end it all depends on the context of the command spell. As the command spell rin used on archer it wasn't very powerful even with a magus of rins might, Archer himself states that the command spell should even be that strong ( which is not strong at all... ). And if the command spell was so powerful that it could alter fates then in fate rin wouldn't have to had call archer back when he was slashed by saber she could just said recover or win. Not to mention long term commands the effects are lowered thus kotomines command must have been not specific enough

In lancers mind be probably just thought this is a battle and gae blog-ing is part of it and the opponent wouldn't die so easily, He probably never thought just that would win so easily. They are heroes and lancer in his time probably thought tons of which could be called heroes not of the caliber of the fate stay night ones though I'm sure there are at least some that avoided being impaled in the heart they arn't even as strong as the fate stay night heroes thus he probably ever thought that would kill them easily. I don't lancer himself knows the luck based attribute of the attack it's more of a hidden status in battle

And doesn't lancer hate kotomine because of.....

He killed bazett, I remember seeing the fate/ tiger colosseum upper in his storyline he was holding her body looking bighearted or even tearful


Its true that the Gae Bolg is not definite. But the fact is that Archer could not have avoided Gae Bolg and Archer would have died if he got hit. What would happen if the Gae Bolg was launched? Then Archer would be dead and Lancer would have violated the spell. Does that mean a servant can just go "oopsies" and receive the penalty? Then the command spell is still not doing its job on preventing servants from disobeying.

I also wonder how would Lancer receive the penalty if he accidentally killed a servant? Would he feel pain for the rest of the war since he violated a rule. Saber was experiencing great pain to resist Caster's command spell, but I think the pain would be over if she follows the command. Lancer cannot take back something that has already happened. So what would be the penalty and how long would it last?

I know that Lancer has other reasons to hate Kotomine, but he was still greatly irritated by the spell. My earlier question was "why would he be irritated if he could just disobey the spell with ease?". My words are confusing sometimes so please bear with me. :(
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Unread postby Masterori » February 27th, 2009, 9:35 am

Actually archer doesn't have a 100% of getting hit him getting hit is rather high but it's still not 100% there is still a chance lancer will miss.

Well archer said he will feel like he decreased a grade if he disobeyed rin, Lancer might feel something near the same, since the command of kotomine is not 100% known so all we know it might have the power of the one rin casted on archer. So he'd feel like he decreased a grade and lesser as the war goes on as long time command spells weaken over time. Sides kotomine isn't even as good as rin in terms of a magus ( he wins in experience though )

Saber was feeling immense pain due to it was a instant command, it's thanks to her great will she was able to hold back, command spells give out something like irresistible urges but still not will overwriting thus it is disobey-able in theory with ALOT of effort.

Well anyone would be irritated being forced ordered around. It's not with ease he can disobey it's disobey-able be takes effort and will even for a non powerful command like this.
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Unread postby nobaka » February 27th, 2009, 2:34 pm

TheRedArcher wrote:But if Lancer could use Gae Bolg without worrying about the command spell, why does he feel angry at Kotomine for restricting him? I can understand why Lancer would hate Kotomine but I remember Lancer saying that he always felt bad that he could never fight to his full potential and had to scout for other servants. If the command spell didn't have that much weight, then it shouldn't really matter to him.

But the command is pretty specific compared to Rin's command on Archer and it is still pretty effective. It does happen over a long period of time, but it should still be effective. Lancer seems to have absolutely no problems using a sure-kill move (against unlucky servants).


Because he was ordered to 'test their abilities' and then retreat without really fighting them, his power was actually limited by the command spell. This is noted in UBW when he faces off against Archer outside the Church. Also, with Luck Rank E, Archer's got no real chance in hell of evading Gae Bolg's thrust. The only reason he was able to avoid the Death Flight is because it doesn't invert causality. In a 1v1 no holds barred battle, Archer would lose, even with Unlimited Blade Works, simply due to the fact that his heart WILL be pierced by Gae Bolg's curse. The only reason Lancer was avoiding using it outside the Church is because he said he wanted to drag Archer in front of Rin and make him apologize.
Last edited by nobaka on February 27th, 2009, 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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