Lancer vs. Berserker? [spoilers]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 25th, 2009, 11:23 pm

Did Lancer ever meet Berserker? I think it is mentioned somewhere in the game that he tested each servant at least once. If this is true, I think he would have used his Gae Bolg on Berserker. Just like how Lancer used Gae Bolg on Saber, even though he was "testing" her. That would that it has already been tested whether Gae Bolg would kill Berserker or not. But it is not mentioned in the game that Berserker was killed prior to the events in the game. So based on this reasoning, Lancer's Gae Bolg did not work against Berserker or at least it wasn't able to kill him. Although, this is all based on whether Lancer has met Berserker before.

How would Assassin fare against Berserker? Assassin is even less versatile than Lancer. It would seem that Assassin would have an even harder time against Berserker since he only has Tsubame Gaeshi and his sword skills.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Watashimo » February 25th, 2009, 11:33 pm

Lancer didn't necessarily have to use Gae Bulg against Berserker if he fought him. Lancer used Gae Bulg on Saber because he saw an opening so he went for the kill, even though that defies Kotomine's Command Spell of "Fight each Servant once, but don't kill them." Which contradicts with his fight against Saber. According to Lancer, if he fights defensively, he can't be beaten even if Archer and Saber were to team up against him. So its logical to assume he simply fought defensively against Berserker and then retreated.

Its said that Assassin with the help of Caster was able to keep Berserker from reaching Ryoudouji Temple, but thats it.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby nobaka » February 25th, 2009, 11:35 pm

Watashimo wrote:Lancer didn't necessarily have to use Gae Bulg against Berserker if he fought him. Lancer used Gae Bulg on Saber because he saw an opening so he went for the kill, even though that defies Kotomine's Command Spell of "Fight each Servant once, but don't kill them." Which contradicts with his fight against Saber. According to Lancer, if he fights defensively, he can't be beaten even if Archer and Saber were to team up against him. So its logical to assume he simply fought defensively against Berserker and then retreated.

Its said that Assassin with the help of Caster was able to keep Berserker from reaching Ryoudouji Temple, but thats it.


Ilya also didn't really care about them at that point.
User avatar
nobaka
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 581
Joined: January 11th, 2008, 6:12 am

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 12:17 am

Watashimo wrote:Lancer didn't necessarily have to use Gae Bulg against Berserker if he fought him. Lancer used Gae Bulg on Saber because he saw an opening so he went for the kill, even though that defies Kotomine's Command Spell of "Fight each Servant once, but don't kill them." Which contradicts with his fight against Saber. According to Lancer, if he fights defensively, he can't be beaten even if Archer and Saber were to team up against him. So its logical to assume he simply fought defensively against Berserker and then retreated.

Its said that Assassin with the help of Caster was able to keep Berserker from reaching Ryoudouji Temple, but thats it.


It is true that Lancer didn't have to use Gae Bolg. It is true that Lancer could have fought defensively and could have fended off Berserker and then ran for it. But the thing is that Lancer used it on Saber. Why would Lancer use it on Saber and not on Berserker? Lancer was even willing to go against the Command Spell to kill her. The command spell restricted him from fighting his full potential against anyone, including Saber. So it seems strange that Saber is the exception when Lancer's aim was to KILL Saber. Lancer could not have known that Saber had a huge amount of luck so it seems reasonable to conclude that he was trying to kill her. Why would he try to kill Saber and not Berserker, who is a greater threat? Based on this question, I think Lancer would use the Gae Bolg on Berserker and the only reason he did not use it would be that he did not have a chance to use it. Keep in mind that I am NOT saying that Lancer MUST have used Gae Bolg on Berserker, I am stating that there is the possibility that the use of Gae Bolg could have happened. Also, keep in mind that all of this is based on whether Lancer has met Berserker before the start of the war.

It is true that Assassin had help from Caster, but I am talking about a hypothetical one on one fight. It seems to me that Assassin would be screwed in this fight.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 12:43 am

Well considering the ambiguous nature of God Hand's full potential as well as lack of information on Lancer's runes, its safe to say that the only way we'll ever know is by asking Nasu himself. There is very little clarification on God Hand and Lancer has so little screen time that we can only speculate on his true powers.

As for Assassin vs Berserker, Assassin would be crushed hands down. Tsubame Gaeshi would be pretty useless against God Hand and seeing as how his sword isn't a noble phantasm (and was actually bent by Saber) its safe to say that Berserker would shatter his weapon similar to the way he shattered Kansho and Bakuya. Even if this weren't the case, Berserker's overwhelming strength and speed would easily give him the advantage. The same way he had an advantage over Saber out in the open.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 4:06 am

Yes, a death match between Berserker and Assassin will produce one dead and mangled Assassin as a result. However, keep in mind that many factors come into play here. Assassin mentioned crossing swords with every single servant, but he never mentioned defeating them or anything like that. Ryuudo Temple is holy ground thus oppressive to spiritual beings except Caster's company because she set up a altar/workshop there. Since a barrier envelopes the temple except the long flight of stairs, Ilya and Berserker were essentially forced to fight according to Assassin's terms. As we know, Sasaki had strong ties with Ryuudo during his life time, so he had the upper hand on terrain and environment. Although there is no such a fight scene, but in my mind, stairs do not make the best battleground for a Servant who relies on building crushing momentum like Berserker.

Lancer used Gae Bolg on Sabre because she would not give up pursuit. Think about it logically, no other servants had any particular reason to pursue and defeat Lancer.

Caster and Assassin: Obvious, Caster's intention was playing defensive until some of the powerhouse die down
Berserker: Ilya wanted to first kill Shirou. She probably did not even care about pesky small fries like Lancer
Rider: Under Shinji? Killing Lancer? Don't think so.
Archer: Hacked by Sabre. Otherwise probably thanking God that he was not on the receiving end of the Gae Bolg. Don't think it is logical for him to pursuit Lancer

As you can see, only Sabre was headstrong enough to make the endeavour of slaying Lancer. Since Lancer already recognized the deadly potential of Sabre, he probably wanted to finish it with his quickest and most trusted killing move (heart impalement).
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 4:38 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Lancer used Gae Bolg on Sabre because she would not give up pursuit. Think about it logically, no other servants had any particular reason to pursue and defeat Lancer.

Caster and Assassin: Obvious, Caster's intention was playing defensive until some of the powerhouse die down
Berserker: Ilya wanted to first kill Shirou. She probably did not even care about pesky small fries like Lancer
Rider: Under Shinji? Killing Lancer? Don't think so.
Archer: Hacked by Sabre. Otherwise probably thanking God that he was not on the receiving end of the Gae Bolg. Don't think it is logical for him to pursuit Lancer

As you can see, only Sabre was headstrong enough to make the endeavour of slaying Lancer. Since Lancer already recognized the deadly potential of Sabre, he probably wanted to finish it with his quickest and most trusted killing move (heart impalement).


I agree with your reasons why others would not pursue Lancer, but I believe that the usage of Gae Bolg was not because Saber was headstrong. I think it would be simple for Lancer to escape from Saber. If Lancer is truly the defensive type that can fend off both Archer and Saber, then I find escape from only Saber to be pretty simple. Lancer was willing to use Gae Bolg on both Archer and Saber before the war. Archer was not so much of threat to Lancer, even though Lancer knew that Archer was not fighting at his fullest because of Archer's choice of weapon. If Archer was truly a threat, I believe that Lancer would not chase down Shirou to let go of the chance to kill Archer. Even if Lancer used Gae Bolg to kill Archer, I believe Lancer still had ample time to track down Shirou. Since the Archer was not willing to pursue him, I find it reasonable for Lancer to use Gae Bolg on the other servants as well. Keep note that Archer was attacked before he was injured from Saber's attack.

One thing I am confused about is the command spell put on Lancer. If Lancer was ordered not to kill the servants, why would he use Gae Bolg on Archer and Saber? It was his first time meeting them; therefore, Lancer would not be able to kill him. Lancer could not have known that he would be interrupted in Archer's fight. He could not have known that Saber had incredibly high luck. If he was aiming to kill them, how can he disobey his master's command?
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Mkilbride » February 26th, 2009, 4:41 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Lancer used Gae Bolg on Sabre because she would not give up pursuit. Think about it logically, no other servants had any particular reason to pursue and defeat Lancer.

Caster and Assassin: Obvious, Caster's intention was playing defensive until some of the powerhouse die down
Berserker: Ilya wanted to first kill Shirou. She probably did not even care about pesky small fries like Lancer
Rider: Under Shinji? Killing Lancer? Don't think so.
Archer: Hacked by Sabre. Otherwise probably thanking God that he was not on the receiving end of the Gae Bolg. Don't think it is logical for him to pursuit Lancer

As you can see, only Sabre was headstrong enough to make the endeavour of slaying Lancer. Since Lancer already recognized the deadly potential of Sabre, he probably wanted to finish it with his quickest and most trusted killing move (heart impalement).


I agree with your reasons why others would not pursue Lancer, but I believe that the usage of Gae Bolg was not because Saber was headstrong. I think it would be simple for Lancer to escape from Saber. If Lancer is truly the defensive type that can fend off both Archer and Saber, then I find escape from only Saber to be pretty simple. Lancer was willing to use Gae Bolg on both Archer and Saber before the war. Archer was not so much of threat to Lancer, even though Lancer knew that Archer was not fighting at his fullest because of Archer's choice of weapon. If Archer was truly a threat, I believe that Lancer would not chase down Shirou to let go of the chance to kill Archer. Even if Lancer used Gae Bolg to kill Archer, I believe Lancer still had ample time to track down Shirou. Since the Archer was not willing to pursue him, I find it reasonable for Lancer to use Gae Bolg on the other servants as well. Keep note that Archer was attacked before he was injured from Saber's attack.

One thing I am confused about is the command spell put on Lancer. If Lancer was ordered not to kill the servants, why would he use Gae Bolg on Archer and Saber? It was his first time meeting them; therefore, Lancer would not be able to kill him. Lancer could not have known that he would be interrupted in Archer's fight. He could not have known that Saber had incredibly high luck. If he was aiming to kill them, how can he disobey his master's command?


Command Spells are broken throughout the entire game. It basically makes it worthless in the end.
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 4:43 am

I thought only Sabre was able to resist command spells, and that was because Caster was not a genuine human master and Sabre had high magical resistance.

I think you meant command, not command spells.
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on February 26th, 2009, 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 4:44 am

Yes, but a command spell has a strong negative effect on any Servant who disobeys. And yet we see nothing in Lancer's case. Even Saber barely managed to disobey a very specific single-command reiju. Lancer's was slightly more vague, but it should have some sort of effect.

Edit: Keeper beat me to it >.>
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Mkilbride » February 26th, 2009, 4:45 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I thought only Sabre was able to resist command spells, and that was because Caster was not a genuine human master.

I think you meant command, not command spells.


Nope, as said he said above me.

Servants can disobey, but it'll hurt them. Of course, if yer like Lancer, you can even talk yer way out of a Command Spell. Got to love the Irish. ;D
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 4:55 am

No, I think you misinterpreted Watashimo, he meant that vague, long-term commands can be disobeyed with relatively small penalty. Specific, instantaneous commands are nearly irresistible. Sabre being able to resist that was a demonstration of just high strong Sabre as a servant was.

Lancer makes a great example. Kotomine's vague "scout but do not kill" command was apparently not as binding as the "kill yourself now" command in UBW.

The nature and specificity of the commands given to Lancer and Sabre was essentially the same, one was suicide, the other was murdering her previous Master. However, as we can see, Sabre was able to resist it while Lancer wasn't.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 4:56 am

Mkilbride wrote:Command Spells are broken throughout the entire game. It basically makes it worthless in the end.


I don't believe command spells are worthless because
it took a great effort for Saber to resist Castor's command.


I have a theory as to why Lancer was able to Gae Bolg, even though he was told not to kill any servants on the first meeting.
Although the command spell was a long term spell, it is a pretty simple rule. Don't kill the servant. That should still make the command spell pretty strong because it doesn't last forever, given that Lancer was able to meet them once.

The command was "fight each servant once, and don't kill them" or something among those lines. Although it was a simple command (thus, making it stronger in effect), it did not restrict Lancer from using Gae Bolg. It is not set in stone that the target will die, so he can find a loophole to use the Gae Bolg. So even if he was intending to kill them, the command spell can probably alter the fate of the world to make a situation where the target will not die. Since Lancer was setting up a Gae Bolg for Archer, the command spell will alter fate so that there was a "coincidental" interruption. So the command spell is not broken. In Saber's situation, I believe that the command spell already knew of Saber's high luck so it didn't alter anything and let Lancer perform the attack. I think a command spell should be powerful enough to do this because it is a spell that is close to magic.
Last edited by TheRedArcher on February 26th, 2009, 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby sabata2 » February 26th, 2009, 5:00 am

Lancer didn't really break the Command Spell.

In both cases, of his fights with Archer and Saber at the beginning, he was only really focused on getting away.
If he had to kill to get away, then he would have to. Which is why he started GB on Archer and followed through with Saber.

And Lancer was ordered to gather information on the other masters, and to fight other Servants once to test their powers, but otherwise to escape.

And if escape means you have to kill someone... well he couldn't disobey the command spell telling him to escape, when the only way to escape is killing.
User avatar
sabata2
Addict
 
Posts: 107
Joined: December 19th, 2008, 10:58 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 5:02 am

What was the specific order (word for word) that Kotomine gave to Lancer?

If it was to not kill a servant on the first meeting, then he should not be able to kill them.

If it was to run away, then the servant can be killed in order to escape.

But if the latter was true, why would he use it on Archer? Lancer should have known that he could get away if he was able to prioritize killing Shirou over killing the threat named Archer.
Last edited by TheRedArcher on February 26th, 2009, 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 5:06 am

Actually, iirc, the command spell said nothing about escaping. I'm pretty sure it was "fight each Servant once, but do not kill them." If Lancer has any intent to kill, it should stop him since it detects the intention. As for affecting fate, I doubt the Command Spell has that much power. Altering fate is a pretty big deal and doing so pretty much automatically puts you in the hero category.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 5:09 am

Command spells are a Matou invention, which is binding. The materialization of Servants and the Greater Grail are facets of the Third.

So what you are saying is:

-the command spells can foresee the future
-then because Gae Bolg reverses causality, the command spells must be able to foresee this as well
-the Luck prevents this reversal of causality due to destiny interference, the command spells must also be able to foresee this

I don't think the Matous are this good...

Also, I think Lancer did intend to use Gae Bolg on Archer. Remember the scene in which Lancer had a monstrous boost of killing intent and Rin detected that Gae Bolg was draining mana from the air like a whirlpool?
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on February 26th, 2009, 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 5:11 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Command spells are a Matou invention, which is binding. The materialization of Servants and the Greater Grail are facets of the Third.

So what you are saying is:

-the command spells can foresee the future
-then because Gae Bolg reverses causality, the command spells must be able to foresee this as well
-the Luck prevents this reversal of causality due to destiny interference, the command spells must also be able to foresee this

I don't think the Matous are this good...


But it was the Matous from long ago, so maybe.

Plus, I remember the game stating that command spells are spells close to magic. You are able to do things that you normally cannot do with regular spells, like instant teleportation and such. Although command spells controlling fate is kinda of a long shot, I can see it as a possibility.
Last edited by TheRedArcher on February 26th, 2009, 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

Unread postby Watashimo » February 26th, 2009, 5:12 am

What I'm saying is the command spell should be able to detect intent, and when Lancer puts the intention of killing into his attack, it should stop it :P
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 5:16 am

Watashimo wrote:What I'm saying is the command spell should be able to detect intent, and when Lancer puts the intention of killing into his attack, it should stop it :P


Then I have to ask, what is the deal with Lancer if he is able to use Gae Bolg. Because this is going to turn into a plothole. :(
User avatar
TheRedArcher
Addict
 
Posts: 112
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 12:12 am
Location: Earth's core

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests