ILPPendant wrote:As I see it, these are the criteria necessary to make this "normal-friendly", in order of priority:
- Expunge (ooh, isn't that a lovely word?) honourifics and other unnecessary Japanese words.
- Heggs? Replace the "haa"s and "fufufu"s with sighs, pants and chuckles. ...I never, ever thought I'd type something like that.
- Remove the ero scenes. This is, of course, optional and could make a bit of a mess, but the 15-rated Realta Nua managed it somehow. Perhaps one could reverse-engineer its solution?
- Consider changing the narrative tense. I simply can't deny that TakaJun's decision to keep Shirou's narration in the present tense worked very well but it is at odds with Western practice. Food for thought, perhaps?
Raven wrote:Before I type up my answer though ... well, don't make it sound like you have to give up your precious time to indulge the topic. If you don't have time or not interest ... well, just don't response.
Raven wrote:First, I don't hate the English language, criticizing/making negative comment about something doesn't mean I think it's crappy. I don't know why most people find it so hard to draw that line, "thing I don't like is crappy", that doesn't apply to me.
English is a "practical" language, business language, I think that's a fact that most people accept around the world. And being too descriptive about certain thing is a limitation in literature writing, that's what all my English teachers, from the AP literature in highschool to the advance composition professor in university and I agree with them. You don't agree because you just simply think otherwise, or because you're just too proud about the English language, that's fine, chalk that up as a personal opinion, but I believe it's well founded and hard to change opinion. If you don't want to think it as a "weakness or limitation" of English, just think being concise and clean is a "strong point and make English what it is", that's fine by me, no problem with two interpretation for the samething.
Does this mean I hate English? No. Am I accusing English doesn't have literature power? No. So is there a need for you to defend it from me? I hope not. The fact that I really enjoy mirrormoon work (which I hope you're aware -is- in English) should be more than enough to prove the language capability. I don't really think we really argue on the same context here.
Raven wrote:Second, no need for sarcastic comment like "it's monotonous - let move on" ...etc... It's not the first time I have this type of conservation, and I use the word mono-tone all the times and you have the honor of the first one ever correcting me. To be frank, you'll see a whole bunch of misspelling in my post if it's not for Firefox, I bet you'll find grammatical mistake as well. But the point is, I believe you understand what I mean without straining your eyes, I think that's enough, let move on.
Raven wrote:Third, I hope you can look at the argument with a moderate respective, since from what I can see you take my word and bend them to the extreme level. When I said as close to the original as possible, I'm sure as hell don't mean thing like particle, direct translation, word for word matching ...etc... Following your argument I would have say something like the translation should follow Japanese construct as well, like "I, curry, eat" or "curry, eat, I" and probably any translation from an Asian language would not make use about half the tense we have in English. No, that's not what I meant since it makes absolute no sense to me, I bet it doesn't make any sense to you either so let not push the argument that way. What you basically descripe is the exact reason why electronic translators all fail misery when it comes to translating literature.
Raven wrote:What I meant is more of contextual understanding of the word and the way it sounds, the word can still make a contextual meaning while retaining a part of the original charm. The concept of using foreign word without involving the need of dictionary is not really a strange concept, especially in colloquial language. I have a few Mexican friends that speak perfectly proper English, their English is probably even better than mine. When we talk however, it's common for them to refer to me as "amigos" and I don't see any problem with that, in fact the word "amigos" for "some reason" feel a lot more friendlier and show a higher level of affectionate if they had use the word "my friend". Something it's not only the "equivalent" meaning that is taken into account, but there are more "contextual" sense that is ... well, not really possible to describe in word, it's more like of something you "feel" rather "understand".
Raven wrote:I don't know if you're an Asian, but if you are you should have a good idea what I'm saying because again, it's hard for me to describe it. For example, in my language I always refer to my parents as "mother and father" whether it's pronounce or possessive adjective. So basically I would say something like this "Mother, can Mother give son Mother's pencil" instead of "mom, can you give me your pencil?". I'm fully aware that "there is nothing wrong" with the latter sentence, but as a "person" I have this weird-indescribable feeling that's I'm not respecting my mother, and of course, no need to say how ridiculous the first sentence sounds. I guess you can say I have the same feeling of something is lost if the translation change the Japanese honorific suffix, no matter how justifiable the replacement is. I guess it's something you won't understand unless you have an oriental language as your birth language. You can study the language all you want, but I think there are something you won't feel or understand unless it's your default language.
Raven wrote:*DISCLAIMER* What I have been saying up to this point are basic reasoning in term of formal language, it has nothing to do with my obsession with Japanese culture or my level of Otakuness*END DISCLAIMER*
Raven wrote:As part of my formal study I'm using the "Breaking into Japanese Literature" by Giles Muray as my reading practice. You can google the book and see what's it about. Basically it contains classical novel and short stories. This is "formal" literature in "written" form. And really, its translation is "exactly" how you like it I suppose. Very clean, with precise reference and no "onii-chan" translation so to speak. It's a good book to understand the language and it's recommended to me by an English teacher who taught English in Japan for 7 years, and he's heading the English Second Language department at a college right now in the US. (And yes, this guy also agree with me about the "limitation" of English like mentioned). However, do I want a visual novel to translate in the same way? No. For two reasons:
- First, as I mentioned before and I'm sure you're aware, in any language not just Japanese or English Colloquial literature is much different from formal written literature. And Visual Novel, for the most part, are Colloquial form. I think you're trying to apply the formal written standard to a Colloquial form ... which to me doesn't make sense.
- Second, yes, it's just part of Otakuism. Common, why do you think people here discuss about things "moe, Gah" ...etc... to begin with? And all of these suffix pronounces can't be denied of having great associate with Otakuism. It's what I think most of us here interested in more or less. Saber is so cute I won't call her any different than Saber-chan, and whenever Shriou suddenly adds a "-san" after her name, you'll know he's in trouble. p
So ... sound argument maybe, but at the wrong place. If you like formal translation, pick up a formal literature book. In my "personal opinion", visual novel is much better with a literal and animeish translation.
You've described a point where things get murky. What you've stumbled upon is English doing what English does best: robbing other languages blind. However, all is not lost since there's actually a rather easy explanation. You're consciously using amigos in the midst of an English sentence (I presume you're speaking English but unless your speaking Spanish it applies just as well to Danish of Russian) - it's acting like a loanword. Amigo (I guess) just means friend in Spanish but as you point out, you've assigned a meaning to it that wasn't there in the original Spanish word. That's fine, but it's also not what this I'm trying to get at.
No matter what, a translation is a translation and a reader should be getting exactly the same experience in the source language as the target language. A formal translation is in my view a very academic and serious affair; it's suited for business documents, scientific papers and literature when it's to be criticised by academics. A colloquial translation can afford to be much looser but just because it's informal, it doesn't mean we should let our standards of good English plummet.
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