ILPPendant vs. Entire Mirror Moon Forums (less Shockz): Take VI
Chaos Chaud wrote:Just asking, ILPPendant, but everyone here was a Never-saw-japanese-before sometime, including you and me, cuz like you said we're not born in a Japanese environment. But if it was THAT difficult to get along with this japanese-language thing, I don't think we would be arguing about this right now, don't you think?
The visual novel (not only that, but anything that is not from our natural environment) will only be pleasant for people if people like the "feeling" it passes from its original meaning.
You might understand from an academic perspective but when you're reading fiction as entertainment you won't (or shouldn't) be thinking academically. There's a crucial difference between knowing what something means and actually understanding it. As I've tried to explain, you can read definitions all day but that doesn't mean you'll understand the subtle meanings they imply.
Let's go with a non food-related analogy for once. I can define the reals using Dedekind cuts. I could show you a proof of this, and then tell you what a Dedekind cut is and how it works until I'm blue in the face. However, I doubt you'd truly understand what's going on until you'd been using cuts for some time yourself; only then can you fully appreciate my original definition.
No really. Go see for yourself.
There's no notation in that proof you won't know if you've done high school mathematics.
z2000 wrote: ILPPendant wrote:
Oh dear, I got overloaded with Uni coursework and forgot about this thread. My apologies.
AddleBoy wrote:I appreciate the translations that mirrormoon have provided, but the only reason I would read anything that is translated is that I can't understand the original language. When I read a foreign novel or watch a foreign movie, the main reason I watch them is because I want a foreign experience. The same thing goes for Fate/Stay Night. Westernizing it too much would be like having pizza available at a Chinese buffet. Why the hell would you go to a Chinese buffet to eat pizza?
I spent one hundred and twenty American dollars so I could enjoy a good story. I very much doubt you spent (presumably) a similar amount so you could enjoy reading Japanese terms mixed into English.
Actually more than that if you include Realta Nua and the shipping for both games. I felt very poor when I bought Fate, only later buying Realta Nua though.
Also, most Japanese -> English books often still use honorifics when needed. Such as Battle Royale, No honorifics except for a few pages in the middle of the story, in which a normal person would think "wtf?" as to why they suddenly use it. Not a good way to do it, but its the best I've seen really while keeping it mostly "English".
Lastly, the Liner Notes take about 10 minutes to read at the most and are easy to memorize. A person who is reading a visual novel will very often have a good reading speed and able to absorb important trivia easily. All you're doing is promoting laziness often found in youth when it comes to reading.
Anyways, as stated before, if you want to read a visual novel, you'll almost always be very familiar with common Japanese words and usages.
As for the others who don't, well they're just plain dense.
And, for the "Foreign Experience" terminology using Chinese restaurants and crap... You're practically saying you're gonna go to a Chinese buffet and you end up only eating the Mac n Cheese available for the kids unsuited to Chinese food. Or, going to a Vietnamese restaurant, ordering Pho, and eat it with forks and without adding the proper condiments into it. It's just not right.
Wait wait wait... you spent two-hundred dollars
so you could read English with arbitrary Japanese interspersed for "flavour"? Hate to break this to you, but you can get that all for free at your friendly neighbourhood scanlations hub. You're also in a minority since most people buy stories for the stories, not the language they're written in.
I'm pretty sure I already said that.
You accuse me of promoting laziness in youth by advocating they be given books written exclusively in the language they understand rather than one they don't but you're encouraging laziness in translators: "Oh dear, there's no one-to-one correspondence between these two words... whatever will I do? I know, I'll leave it Japanese. It'll give the readers something to think about and keep them on their toes."
I'll thank a translator not to expect me to pay him to make me finish his job.
I think I said that too. At this rate I'll be able to compose replies simply by copying and pasting my earlier posts.
Honestly, liner notes this, liner notes that. One'd think they contained the cure for cancer... your* precious liner notes omit to mention the more complex uses of -kun and -chan (heck, much of everything); that the various sibling honourifics carry no significant meaning; and don't include an entry on yobisute or -dono (which gets really complicated). But hey, it's easy to understand so who cares if it's incomplete? It's also in Japanese and therefore above any stylistic criticism! By insisting on these notes, you're giving the reader the false impression that honourifics are somehow a very important part of speech in general rather than just a component no more or less crucial than the other (always translated) facets of linguistic politeness.
Please read my post on the Chinese food idea again. You've rehashed something I've rebutted already. Well, actually in your case it might be strangely applicable...
*This is a you plural.
Shockz wrote:Fear not, ILPPendant, for you have at least one ally on this forum...
...even if he's a n00b with only two posts to his name.
I actually think this is a good idea. While I personally prefer the Japenglish-hybrid-slang style someone mentioned that most fansubbers (and MirrorMoon) use, it's definitely not to everyone's taste (especially someone new to VNs).
Someone mentioned Ever17 earlier in this thread. Despite the (occasionally rather serious) flaws in Hirameki's translation, the parts that DID have halfway decent proofreading were a pretty good example of exactly what's being suggested here--they got across the story clearly without using terms unfamiliar to English-speaking audiences. (And then, on the other hand, we have "Naturally I knows the hacker." Christ, no wonder they went bankrupt...)
Some responses to specific translation problems that have been mentioned:
"Fuji-nee": Have Shirou just call her "Taiga". Him being comfortable with calling his teacher by her first name IMO indicates a similar level of familiarity in English as "Fuji-nee" does in Japanese. (My god, that sentence was terrible.)
"Sempai": ...I can't figure one out for this, either. English simply doesn't have a word or phrase with the same definition and connotation. This may require some creativity.
serialies is right, a Woolseyism is exactly what we're looking for here...and the very fact that that trope exists proves this can be done.
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
I mentioned Ever17. I don't care about translation mistakes in this thread because they're irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You're right though, aside from the odd hiccough, the English was solid. (Notice I didn't say "translation" in that last sentence? I shouldn't need to: a good translation is invisible. The reader shouldn't really be aware that he's reading a translation. The Japanese audio spoils that a bit but...)
I disagree on "Fuji-nee". I'd simply use Fuji. Don't forget she hates being called Taiga; Saber gets away with it because she gave her a new set of stripes with a shinai. What's more, it's normal for siblings to abbreviate each other's names. It works on several levels.
"Sempai" can be converted to Shirou with a little effort and a bit of imagination. "Tohsaka-sempai" becomes "Tohsaka" and thus Sakura had been induced into calling her "Rin" instead of "Nee-san".
Easy peasy. A bit of experience goes a long way.
I really don't understand what is the problem here...
Yes...the translation of some works, novels and stuff is just wrong.
It leads to confusion and missunderstanding...
apparently Ipp is against this...or something like that.
but come on Ipp...I have read "Flowers of Hiroshima" ("Hiroshima no hana" maybe?) and even though I haven't read the original in japanese I would say it is a good book.
Of course, in japanese it must be a lot better but no matter how much you try to translate something into other lenguage you won't get the same impression from the people.
The lenguage dominates us; not us the lenguage.
First of all, it's la
Secondly, ...huh? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. I haven't read Flowers of Hiroshima and you haven't specified exactly what it does differently from just about every other professional book translation I've come across. (My sample stands rather low at eight, but still...)
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:You misunderstood me, I was just joining the rant about the "4Kids" style translations sold by the American publishers, and the majority of the consumers who purchase them despite the poor quality and strict censorship.
Certainly 4kids likes to censor references to death and whatnot but otherwise their translations
are pretty damn good. If it's a 4kids dub, I usually take that as a sign that it'll at least be watchable.
I notice that no one has offered a rebuttal for my reductio ad absurdum
line of argument. I've seen a lot of knee-jerk reactions but this debate is getting boring. There's no time limit to response, guys! Hop to it and come up with something that makes me think!
Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by irony.