Why do you think Archer is GAR?

[Chaos Chaud]

TL; DR Archer is a KSer. Gil is far too honorable to do that. That's why he's beyond GAR.

But Archer killed someone Shirou was killing... that one doesn't count as ks...

Also, in UBW

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Gil tried to kill Shirou after he was almost dead 'cause of the fight with Archer

So Gil is the KSer here...

[Kid-Wolf]

TL; DR Archer is a KSer. Gil is far too honorable to do that. That's why he's beyond GAR.

But Archer killed someone Shirou was killing... that one doesn't count as ks...

Also, in UBW

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Gil tried to kill Shirou after he was almost dead 'cause of the fight with Archer

So Gil is the KSer here...

Indeed Archer actually saved Shirou not once, but twice in the UBW story. Once in the middle of their fight when Gil decided to step in on the matter. The other then he had to save Shirou at the end. I mean Shirou didn't have anything left when Gil tried to save himself. So there's no way Archer is like that, besides that was more like a Support Kill if you ask me.

Also, I have to agree with Chaos Chaud here on that matter as well about Gil.

[Uberoy]

Also, in UBW

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Gil tried to kill Shirou after he was almost dead 'cause of the fight with Archer

So Gil is the KSer here...

Hey, you can't blame Gil for Shirou's lack of regeneration. If he isn't ready when the king wants to play he only have himself to blame.

[Catastrophe]

hmmm... basing myself a bit in the VIRTUS thing, it somehow gets to mean "Honorable deaths"

so:
Gil's "Honorable Deaths" count = 0
GAR level = 0

[Dark_Habit]

Reality check Isn't this topic supposed to be about those who are GAR and not about those who aren't?
Besides, everyone has there preferences.As they say "one man's stone is another man's gold" (Hell yeah that was original !).

[Uberoy]

This thread is about why Archer is Gar, and since Gil is an Archer he's not off-topic.

[Dark_Habit]

This thread is about why Archer is Gar, and since Gil is an Archer he's not off-topic.

Arrgh! Read what I wrote! I said we shouldn't be discussing about whose NOT Gar! I never said anything about Goldie.

[Uberoy]

Well, you responded to someone who said that Gil wasn't Gar which means he's considered not gar which is one opinion in this discussion. A discussion needs more than one opinion or else we have a pretty dead thread.

[Dark_Habit]

Well, you responded to someone who said that Gil wasn't Gar which means he's considered not gar which is one opinion in this discussion. A discussion needs more than one opinion or else we have a pretty dead thread.

Dang, I give up.

[Kid-Wolf]

Ok I'll give you this, Gil does have GAR-like moments in certain parts of the story I'll give you that. Although his aditude can come off as so not GAR that it kind of cancels most, if not all of his GARness. I mean

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he kind of did have an honorable death in Fate with his battle against Saber, but that was the only time he died honorably. In UBW he was too scared to die. As for HF he didn't have a chance at all when he casually attacked Dark Sakura. So in HF he was actually pwned before he had a chance to retailiate from her quick recovery an absorption of him.

[abscess]

Not only that, but

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I mean he even killed a loli in the UBW route, so how is that considered GAR?

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I actually thought that was something of a GAR moment from Gil. I was "Oh my fucking GOD, THAT'S BADASS!!". Not many people would kill children to get what they want, that's fucking ruthless and cruel, but that guy will step on anything and anyone to get it. As twisted and disgusting as it is, that demands some respect one way or another.

That is a completely debatable point, but those are my two cents. I'd say Gil is not GAR but badass and stupid.

[Kid-Wolf]

@abscess: So you're saying that Gil has all the taits for being GAR, but he doesn't use them properly due to his idoisy? I mean yes he does pull off the badass factor, but he sometimes tends to overplay it and then acts more like a pompus ass instead.

Although

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I think he makes up for it a little bit in F/HA though since he doesn't kill anyone outright in a stpid manner or anything like that. Although he loses his GARness due to him being in his child-like form. I mean who knew he had a better persona as a kid?

[SolarAdept]

Gil-kid is affably evil. Gil-adult is a jerkass.

I wonder if the Archer in HF3 was GAR... or who he/she even was.

[Kid-Wolf]

Oddly enough I don't think they though be that far on the Servants that participated.

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The only one that they did was Avenger from HF3.

As for the rest of the Servants they didn't say at all. Although I don't think they will go that deep for that since HF4 had a ten year difference from HF5, instead of 60+years from HF3 to HF4.

Although sometimes I wonder what were the Servants that were summoned in the first three HF Wars though, but the only Archers we currently know of is HF4 Archer, Gil. and HF5 Archer

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as Emiya in a GAR-like state.

[Uberoy]

Although sometimes I wonder what were the Servants that were summoned in the first three HF Wars though.[/spoil]

I wonder that aswell but I'm more interested in

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How the grail was and used before it got tainted by Avenger.

[Chaos Chaud]

I wonder that aswell but I'm more interested in

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How the grail was and used before it got tainted by Avenger.

Me too...

[Vhailor]

Well, if i remember, the grail was in fact something means to keep the soul of the defeated heroic spirits before they go back to Akasha (Yes, i know, the servants are not the heroic spirit but some kind of copy. Never the less, if i read correctly HF, it seems they do return to the throne of heroes, maybe like a book mentionned by Archer.). They keep every souls and then, they release it to create something like a hole, because of the massiv prana, that will be a path for the mage to reach Akasha.
This is the theory BUT it never happened.
First HF, they just summon three heroic spirits (the three knights) and it was not enough.
Second HF, they decieved the magic association pretending the rituel of HF was a battleroyal were magi compete. But, again, a monstruous failure because the outragous powerful servants nuke everything and magi doesn't restrain themselves anymore, destroying the whole damn thing. This forced the magic association to ask the Church to act as a supervisor for the future Grail war.
And finaly, the Third war p. Also a desaster ffs!

[Kikuchi]

^Nicely put.

[Kid-Wolf]

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So in the end it was a disaterous idea rom the getgo since the three families that begain this system of a war had different reasons to fight in the war.The Makiri (Matous) wanted eternal life, the Tohsakas wanted to obtain Origin, and the Einzberns just wanted the Grail itself. Although the way it was setup it could actually work in theory, but with the Summoning of Avenger in the 3rd HF canged how the Grail was supposed to work. Thus corrupting the way the Grail War is supposed to be.

Although if this is the case then Fyuki City should be considered as dangerous ground to Summon the Grail because of Avenger. Which comes to the theory of what would happen if the Grail War was summoned elsewere entirley, and will it have the same effect as it would in Fyuki City?

[Chaos Chaud]

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It will depend. I think if they start doing the grail system from scratch, including they Great Holy Grail, it won't be contaminated. About the effect, it should differ according to how spiritually charged the land is. For an example, if the ritual was done in Aozaki's land(which is high spiritually charged) the ritual should be easier to perform and the effect should be more powerful.