Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

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Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby allanh » February 1st, 2009, 10:59 pm

I have just completed the game, FSN including all the Tiger dojo scenes. I watched anime prior (that's how I got hooked in the first place).
I just have some random thoughts the endings of each scenario (routes) and characters of heroines.


Endings:

In Fate, I like most of the story. It seems that my personality and Shirou' are pretty similar. However, the ending did not examplify enough how much Shirou misses Saber. He seemed to be too happy after Saber disappeared. Also, he still did not fix the fixation of Arturia has on rectifying her "mistakes" in the past. Had Shirou managed to convince Arturia that it was not her fault for the death in the past, she might have placed priority of Shirou over hedr own ideals and staye.
Over all, it would have been good if "Fate" route has more endings with at least one that Saber stays.

In UBW, they concentrated a lot on fighting. Rin was good but she did not seem to show enough affection towards Shirou. They only did the "Magic Transferring" process because they had to????? Also, she was complaining after the "procedure" that Shirou was too rough?!!!
I would have hoped that as the heroine of the story, they would make Rin say something that showed her love for Shirou a bit more. Also, Illya could have appeared more in this scenario.
Besides, I do not get the "Good Ending" of this route. How did Saber survive? Didn't she use the last of the magic energy to use Excalibur to destroy the Holy Grail (as shown in the True Ending"?
But I LOVE the "Good Ending" of this route. There are only 2 sad points: 1)Saber is not Shirou's primary love interest in this route, yet I wanted her to be. Rin is good, just not as good as Saber 2)Illya died.


Heaven's Feel is my most hated route. First thing is that Sakura should never have become the primary love interest of Shirou's. Her actions are pretentious and all her "kawaiiness" seem to be acted. She became jealous, weak, low sense of morality and was selfish. While you could argue that it was from the influence of the Holy Grail content, I believe that the "content" merely magnify her original personality. To be honest, it was a pain to play through a game when you can not bring yourself to like the main heroine yet you are forced to make choices that side with Sakura to complete this route.


Overall impression
FSN is an epic visual novel, in my opinion. The characters are all developed in depth and a lot of us have grown attached to them. Sakura is the only character that failed. It's hard to see her gaining popularity / support with her personality, yet Type Moon made her an "unlikable" heroine in the Heavens Feel route. Of the 4 girls , here are my ranking:
1. Saber - for obvious reasons. Loyal, tsundere, protective, high sense of moral and a considerate person, not to mention she is super-kawaii. Ideal girl in this world. Some people say she is too dull/strict, but that fit my taste perfectly. A strict girl with a soft side who would never betray you.

2. Rin Tohsaka - strong, make some kawaii mistakes but again loyal like Saber. She is a considerate person as well, but in a different way from Saber. She wouldn't be a bad choice as a GF as you know you can trust her.

3. Illya- Illya did not do much in the first 2 routes, saving been a warui antagonist in Fate. Hence I have not much feeling towards her. However, in Heavens Feel, I could almost love her on par with Saber. Her only problem is that she is a little too small lol (although it was implied that she is actually older than Shirou).

4. Sakura- I just don't like this character. I think she fails to be likeable yet she somehow became the heroine. A possessive type of woman.

My suggestions to Type Moon on how to make FSN a even better game

1. Create alternate endings for "Fate" route. Since Saber is Shirou's main love interest, there should be a "Good Ending" where they can end up together, just for the soft-hearted players like me who can't accept separation.

2. Develop Sakura in Heavens Feel into a more likeable character in Heavens Feel so that we can actually feel sorry for her sufferings while the story progresses.

3. Add animation elements into the visual novel. While the still pictures are brilliant, creating scenes with animation would liven up the whole thing even more.

4. With today's technology and storage devices, it should be possible to create a lot more alternate routes ( not dead ends) to all 3 storylines. Perhaps make it so that it is actually possible to have any of the 3 girls (Saber, Rin, Sakura) become the love interest depending on your decisions? I wouldn't mind the game becoming 10gig in size.

5. Make it more like a game so that we can actually power up Shirou by training him. Perhaps if he becomes a better fighter, there could be different endings?

6. More dating scenarios, please Type Moon. Dating Saber only once is not enough. grrhhhh
------------------------------
Anyway, thanks for reading through my ramblings. Just a way to express my appreciation of this great Visual Novel.
Last edited by allanh on February 1st, 2009, 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 1st, 2009, 11:05 pm

You don't understand Visual Novels at all if you believe your third request.
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Unread postby allanh » February 1st, 2009, 11:08 pm

Mkilbride wrote:You don't understand Visual Novels at all if you believe your third request.


there is 1 minor animated scene in the end of Heavens Feel when Rider, Sakura, Rin, Shirou are watching the cherry blossoms.
I don't think Visual Novels are incompatible with some amount of animation.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » February 1st, 2009, 11:09 pm

Well to respond to this it would probably be best to wait for Fate/Hollow Ataraxia to be translated before saying this should be redone.

As for the Fate ending it had to end like that since Shirou used up all of his Command Spells and since those were the only things keeping Saber with him there was no point of her staying. As for the UBW Good End that was to make up for Fate having one ending. Now for Sakura they went moe moe on her. Meaning they overplayed the basis of what is considered as moe. It shows that the power of moe is a double-edged sword, if you do it wrong people won't like the character as they would hope.


Oh yeah if you want try and play Relta Nua (the PS2 version) if you want the animations of certain parts.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Unread postby Gunbladeuser » February 1st, 2009, 11:34 pm

I don't think they should make more endings.
Seriously, the Saber route is good as it is now.
I think part of the route's charm is exactly because it ends the way it ends; if you go and try to make everything a happy endings, that'd only make the story "worse" - if you know what I mean.
It would just feel wrong like it's a halfheartedly added ending just to satisfy some fans who are always longing for a happy end...

The bad ending of Heaven's Feel for example is far more touching than the good ending.
Well... actually, I was kind of disappointed with the good ending anyway because of the lack of love imo.

That brings me to another point you mentioned and that I totally agree with:
I think the characters don't show enough love. I mean... in Unlimited Blade Works Rin could really act nicer towards Shirou; well, not immediately at the beginning, but when it becomes so obvious that they love each other...
And in Heaven's Feel, too, I think there is a lack of love. I mean... there definitely are some really great scenes, but overall I think Shirou and Sakura are acting really weird for a couple being in love...
For example, it is rally disturbing that they are having sex because of those mana-things... again like in other routes. That's so wrong...
And the statement of Sakura in the good ending that she thinks they're having too much sex, but that it is neccessary... oh my god...

Anyway, but I personally still like Sakura a lot. In fact, I think she is the best heroine, being closely followed by Rin.
Saber... well... I do like her, but that's nothing in comparison to the other two.
So it depends on each person if he can understand and maybe identify with a certain character.
Sakura definitely is not a fail.

As for the other ideas of you...
Well, it sounds as if you'd want Fate/stay night to be an RPG with leveling Shirou and using him for battle etc....
It's not that it is a bad idea, but... that wouldn't be a visual novel anymore. ^^"

And dating sim... no, rather not. That little existing in the game is enough. More would be out of place imo.
I mean... hey, there's a war and you're going ahead and go on several dates?!
That's too strange...
Besides, I think relationships can develop better under such circumstances (rescueing each other, putting your life on the line for the one you love) than having fun while you or other people might get killed...
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Unread postby Shourai » February 2nd, 2009, 1:30 am

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm just going to respond to the points 1 to 6:

1. Gunbladeuser has said it for me. Half-assed endings will just ruin the story, just like Arcueid and UBW Good Ending.
2. Sakura is by far the most developed heroine in F/sn. The Heaven's Feel story is all about Sakura Matou's history, how she was brought up in the Matou household, etc, etc... (besides true nature of Holy Grail). Her character depth is elaborated on even more so than Saber, let alone Rin. Regarding how I still don't like her even after Heaven's Feel, it's entirely different matter.
3. If you mean animations like the ones in eroge h-scenes (moving sex scenes), don't even think about it. If you mean animations like fmv, there are already 2 in the PC version. More so if you play the PS2 version.
4. ...if you mean this seriously, I suggest you replay the game. There's enough apparent affection the main character (Shirou) showed to the 3 heroines in their respective route.
5. Play BMW. The doujin TYPE-MOON RPG. F/sn is a visual novel. Don't compare it to the likes of Utawarerumono. They all have their own respective genres.
6. Again, F/sn isn't a dating sim game. Nor it is like any other non-TYPE MOON eroge in existence. (can be interpreted in any way you like, if you know what I mean...)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 2nd, 2009, 2:30 am

Besides, I do not get the "Good Ending" of this route. How did Saber survive? Didn't she use the last of the magic energy to use Excalibur to destroy the Holy Grail (as shown in the True Ending"?

Whether she stays or not depends on the level of affection. Technically, Saber can stay, because I believe Rin still has her command mantra. The Master serves as the anchor for the Servant, so as long as they both agree to establish/renew a contract and the Master can supply the mana, the Servant can remain (think Gilgamesh). In the True End, Sabre has fulfilled her duty and does not feel that attached to Shirou or Rin, so as the contract has been completed, she dissipates.

I don't quite understand why people don't like Sakura. I believe Heaven's Feel is the best route in part because I feel that Sakura and Kotomine are brilliant as antagonists. In the Fate and UBW, both Sakura and Kotomine are one dimensional characters, playing your stock good and evil characters. However, Heaven's Feel really developed them and revealed their motives, particularly Sakura. First of all, I agree that the numerous sex scenes are very forced, and gets very repetitive. However, saying Sakura is jealous, weak, selfish and immoral is a bit too harsh. Sakura is, in a way, quite similar to Kohaku. Their identity and self-esteem have been crushed at an very early age. Because they know nothing besides being abused and tortured, their personalities have been warped beyond recognition despite looking normal on the surface. Therefore, you cannot use the standard you used on other "somewhat normal" characters to gauge Sakura. I find Sakura's behaviour and her eventual fall to darkness quite understandable, and in a way, almost inevitable.

To illustrate my point, I will go off on a tangent. If you ever tried culturing bacteria outside of its natural host, you will see that, after a few generations, if you reintroduce them back into the host, they will all die. Once the bacteria become accustom to the comfort of the Petri dish, they become soft and can no longer combat the immune system of its host.

Coming back to Sakura. For all her life, she has been tortured and abused. No one has ever shown her a shred of love. After she met Shirou, finally she felt loved and having someone to depend on. Now that she has experienced love, she can no longer go back and she is willing to do anything to keep Shirou by her side. Because Shirou is everything to her (with the emphasis on everything), she perceives Rin's close relationship with Shirou as a threat to rob her of, essentially, her only source of happiness and acceptance. As we know, the downward spiral begins on this premise.

Despite her tumultuous internal conflicts and emotions, Sakura is still very disciplined and able to keep them in check. The tainted grail removes the lid that held down all these emotions and simultaneous provides Sakura with the weapons to inflict pain on those who have hurt her directly or indirectly.

I agree with Gunbladeuser that there is not much love between Shirou and Sakura in Heaven's Feel. I think this is mostly because both of them are fighting their internal battles for the majority of the route (Shirou deciding to relinquish his ideal and Sakura fighting to bear the psychological pain brought by the prospect of fighting her sister, the physical assault of the worms, and the corruption of the cursed grail.) I don't think there is a way to make this more love-love, because Shirou's relationship with Sakura becomes more of a symbol as the route develops. It reflects that Shirou completely abandoned Kiritsugu's ideal. He will protect those close to him and disregard everyone else.

In a way, I feel that the role of the heroines diminishes from route to route, and Shirou becomes a bit more independent and moves into the spotlight. As much of Heaven's Feel focuses on Shirou's decisions and actions, the relationship between Sakura and Shirou falls down the priorities list.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 2nd, 2009, 2:45 am

@Keeper of Gil's Vault: There's nothing wrong with what you said, yes, but you must understand that "yandere" heroines like Sakura isn't the type to gain universal affection. I even think that TYPE MOON itself seemed to anticipate this fact. That's why she got lotsa of "moe moe" in F/ha, to compensate with what happened in HF.

It's good that Sakura has her own supporter; you don't have to understand each and every person's opinion on why they hate Sakura now, do you? :wink:
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » February 2nd, 2009, 2:49 am

Shourai wrote:@Keeper of Gil's Vault: There's nothing wrong with what you said, yes, but you must understand that "yandere" heroines like Sakura isn't the type to gain universal affection. I even think that TYPE MOON itself seemed to anticipate this fact. That's why she got lotsa of "moe moe" in F/ha, to compensate with what happened in HF.

It's good that Sakura has her own supporter; you don't have to understand each and every person's opinion on why they hate Sakura now, do you? :wink:


Yeah but for some reason they kind of overcompensated for the yanderie side of things by making her too moe moe. Although you're right F/HA did make her into a better character from what I could tell so far. Although I may argue otherwise once it is translated of course.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Unread postby allanh » February 2nd, 2009, 3:09 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:[spoil]
Besides, I do not get the "Good Ending" of this route. How did Saber survive? Didn't she use the last of the magic energy to use Excalibur to destroy the Holy Grail (as shown in the True Ending"?

Whether she stays or not depends on the level of affection. Technically, Saber can stay, because I believe Rin still has her command mantra. The Master serves as the anchor for the Servant, so as long as they both agree to establish/renew a contract and the Master can supply the mana, the Servant can remain (think Gilgamesh). In the True End, Sabre has fulfilled her duty and does not feel that attached to Shirou or Rin, so as the contract has been completed, she dissipates.

I don't quite understand why people don't like Sakura. I believe Heaven's Feel is the best route in part because I feel that Sakura and Kotomine are brilliant as antagonists. In the Fate and UBW, both Sakura and Kotomine are one dimensional characters, playing your stock good and evil characters. However, Heaven's Feel really developed them and revealed their motives, particularly Sakura. First of all, I agree that the numerous sex scenes are very forced, and gets very repetitive. However, saying Sakura is jealous, weak, selfish and immoral is a bit too harsh. Sakura is, in a way, quite similar to Kohaku. Their identity and self-esteem have been crushed at an very early age. Because they know nothing besides being abused and tortured, their personalities have been warped beyond recognition despite looking normal on the surface. Therefore, you cannot use the standard you used on other "somewhat normal" characters to gauge Sakura. I find Sakura's behaviour and her eventual fall to darkness quite understandable, and in a way, almost inevitable.

To illustrate my point, I will go off on a tangent. If you ever tried culturing bacteria outside of its natural host, you will see that, after a few generations, if you reintroduce them back into the host, they will all die. Once the bacteria become accustom to the comfort of the Petri dish, they become soft and can no longer combat the immune system of its host.

Coming back to Sakura. For all her life, she has been tortured and abused. No one has ever shown her a shred of love. After she met Shirou, finally she felt loved and having someone to depend on. Now that she has experienced love, she can no longer go back and she is willing to do anything to keep Shirou by her side. Because Shirou is everything to her (with the emphasis on everything), she perceives Rin's close relationship with Shirou as a threat to rob her of, essentially, her only source of happiness and acceptance. As we know, the downward spiral begins on this premise.

Despite her tumultuous internal conflicts and emotions, Sakura is still very disciplined and able to keep them in check. The tainted grail removes the lid that held down all these emotions and simultaneous provides Sakura with the weapons to inflict pain on those who have hurt her directly or indirectly.

I agree with Gunbladeuser that there is not much love between Shirou and Sakura in Heaven's Feel. I think this is mostly because both of them are fighting their internal battles for the majority of the route (Shirou deciding to relinquish his ideal and Sakura fighting to bear the psychological pain brought by the prospect of fighting her sister, the physical assault of the worms, and the corruption of the cursed grail.) I don't think there is a way to make this more love-love, because Shirou's relationship with Sakura becomes more of a symbol as the route develops. It reflects that Shirou completely abandoned Kiritsugu's ideal. He will protect those close to him and disregard everyone else.

In a way, I feel that the role of the heroines diminishes from route to route, and Shirou becomes a bit more independent and moves into the spotlight. As much of Heaven's Feel focuses on Shirou's decisions and actions, the relationship between Sakura and Shirou falls down the priorities list.


To Keeper of Gil's Vault:

I agree with your analysis of Sakura's kimochi towards Shirou. The approach that I have when I play the game is putting myself as the main protagonist's (in this case, Shirou) shoes. As Shirou, I would not fall in love with a dark-natured girl like Sakura. Treating her like a little sister, yes, but as a lover, no.
The story would have made more sense if they justify the reasons of Shirou helping Sakura being the fact that he loves her as a sister, rather than being a lover.

----------------------------
In regard to other feedback on how Fate has a fitting ending as it is, I do not disagree. But it just pains my heart whenever I think of the story. I guess it has to do with the fact that when I play a game (esp one as epic as this one), I imagine myself as the main protagonist and share the same feeling as him (Shirou). In this case, I can just imagine how painful it must be for Shirou who sees the girl whom he loves disappear right in front of his eyes forever.
That's why I propose a better (or rather a less painful) ending for those of us who have completely merged with Shirou's persona.

--------------------------
In regard to UBW's True Ending, thanks for the explaination. I guess in Fate, Shirou should have formed a new contract with Saber at the end of the battle so that Saber can stay with him...... just like in UBW. [/spoil]
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » February 2nd, 2009, 3:19 am

If Shirou helped her as a sister then as a lover you know you've just mentioned something that could be hard to do since Sakura did love Shirou more then just a brother you know, and Shirou kind of fell for her after the first night together. I mean falling for the first gril you did it with is something that can be fairly rare if you ask me, and in a Visual Novel no less. Besides it is kind of rare fo rthis to really happen, but she did tend to take care of him for over a year and half. Not only that but she managed to notice him four year before properly metting.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 2nd, 2009, 3:31 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:
If Shirou helped her as a sister then as a lover you know you've just mentioned something that could be hard to do since Sakura did love Shirou more then just a brother you know, and Shirou kind of fell for her after the first night together. I mean falling for the first gril you did it with is something that can be fairly rare if you ask me, and in a Visual Novel no less. Besides it is kind of rare fo rthis to really happen, but she did tend to take care of him for over a year and half. Not only that but she managed to notice him four year before properly metting.



She's called a Emo Stalker.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » February 2nd, 2009, 3:45 am

Mkilbride wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:
If Shirou helped her as a sister then as a lover you know you've just mentioned something that could be hard to do since Sakura did love Shirou more then just a brother you know, and Shirou kind of fell for her after the first night together. I mean falling for the first gril you did it with is something that can be fairly rare if you ask me, and in a Visual Novel no less. Besides it is kind of rare fo rthis to really happen, but she did tend to take care of him for over a year and half. Not only that but she managed to notice him four year before properly metting.



She's called a Emo Stalker.
She reminds me of Sacchin, if you ask me. :P
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Unread postby Unkind » February 2nd, 2009, 3:58 am

Sakura was by far my favorite heroine, with such an extremely developed backstory and how shirou was the only person in her life that wasn't horrible to her on a regular basis I don't see how you can say anything she did was "forced". She became jealous, pretentious and pissed off at various points because she had like the worst life ever. Constantly being raped, tortured and mentally drained will do that to people.
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Unread postby that one guy » February 2nd, 2009, 3:59 am

Unkind wrote:
Sakura was by far my favorite heroine, with such an extremely developed backstory and how shirou was the only person in her life that wasn't horrible to her on a regular basis I don't see how you can say anything she did was "forced"


This. I can't understand why you people don't like her. It is beyond me.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » February 2nd, 2009, 6:31 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:
If Shirou helped her as a sister then as a lover you know you've just mentioned something that could be hard to do since Sakura did love Shirou more then just a brother you know, and Shirou kind of fell for her after the first night together. I mean falling for the first gril you did it with is something that can be fairly rare if you ask me, and in a Visual Novel no less. Besides it is kind of rare fo rthis to really happen, but she did tend to take care of him for over a year and half. Not only that but she managed to notice him four year before properly metting.



She's called a Emo Stalker.
She reminds me of Sacchin, if you ask me. :P


Wait how did Sacchin get into the Fate game storylines now?

Isn't it sad Sacchin, no one wants you to have a route even in the Fate Visual Novel.

As for disliking Sakura, it is probably because they heavily overplayed the moe factor card for most of her storyline.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
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Unread postby allanh » February 2nd, 2009, 6:59 am

excuse my ignorance, but what does "moe" mean?
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Unread postby Atriel » February 2nd, 2009, 7:10 am

You can take it as a synonym of cute.
If you disagree, you are wrong.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » February 2nd, 2009, 7:10 am

allanh wrote:excuse my ignorance, but what does "moe" mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)

Atriel : cute is part of moe, but moe isn't always cute, if you get what I mean. 8)

Kid-Wolf wrote:Wait how did Sacchin get into the Fate game storylines now?

Isn't it sad Sacchin, no one wants you to have a route even in the Fate Visual Novel.
Well, from what I can figure, the way they stalk and drool over the main guy is the same. 8)

As for disliking Sakura, it is probably because they heavily overplayed the moe factor card for most of her storyline.
Ok, a bullseye right there. 8)
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Unread postby HeartCard » February 2nd, 2009, 5:11 pm

I got two FUCK YOUS for everyone:

1. This has (spoilers) in the name and the topic states it's about the endings...
Burn your bloody spoilertags. I understand stuff outside F/SN for PC such as Realta Nua spoilers.
But come on...There's a limit dammit.

2. STOP. BEING. SO. DAMN....DAMN...*Cry* "Weeaboo".
If you're speaking engrish, speaku engrish!
If you want to speak japanese, than it ALL better be in Japanese.
I hate people who use other language words mid-statement. "I understand her kimochi."
You are not fooling anyone, we know you don't actually speak the language.

Now if you're using your NATIVE language instead of a word you don't know how to say, that's completely understandable.
But this wapanese "I am the bone of my yaiba." crap needs to just Die. Someone Shikill it.
Especially when people like me read for one language. And then we hit your weeaboo-ness and have to think
about the frakkin word for a minute to realize "NOT ENGRISH".

"Bamboo", "Moe", "Loli", and such TERMS are fine by me. They're terms. Slang. It's like "Ain't". Fairplay.
Just someone, shikill this wapanese engrish DBZ-styled failsion.
/end rant


Allanh:
FATE Ending:
I highly recommend you read Realta Nua for that "Better Ending" you seem to be longing for.
Realta nua's Fate route has a "Good" end which tacts on after the regular ending if your Saber score is high enough.
In that Saber and Shirou meet up in Avalon after Shirou dies.

UBW Good Ending:
I'm going to assume you skipped over the scenes.
Go back and re-read the last scenes after saber uses Scaliburger on the grail.
If you were going to get the GOOD ending, there will be a scene that was not there before.
You might have just considered Auto-Skip not to be working properly, or that you accidentally clicked "No" to the skip,
and CTRL'd through it.

The scene explains Saber has reason to exist in this world. She might have saved a TINY bit of mana because of that,
instead of just using it all in scaliburger.

By the way, unfortunately there was no way Saber could be the heroine in this route. Or it would have canceled out the point.
In this route, shirou must use his own strength and face his own strength.
If saber was the main heroine, he would not have lost her generally and so his growth could not happen in this route.
It's like the Crane Wing Scene in Heaven's Feel. As much as you want Shirou to be THAT awesome, it is not what can be
allowed as the result. Because if Crane Wing is used, Shirou dies and all is for nothing. Same if Saber is with shirou, he cannot grow enough.

Personally I think a better heroine for the UBW route would have been Illya. But those are personal thoughts...

Heaven's Feel:
*Shrug* This has always been my personal favourite.
I'm pretty sure your view on Sakura is about as clear and accurate as my "Hate Rin('s fanboys)" topic.
I'll do this in pointers:
1. Sakura was chosen for this route because she had the most involvement with it. The heroines remaining were Sakura, Rider, and Illya.
While anyone would have gladly had an Illya Route, Sakura would have made for a more dramatic route generally.
Rider had too little involvement with the "Deep" side of Fate, so it left it to Sakura and Illya.
I do not recall why Sakura was chosen over Illya, but I imagine it was due to character.
Illya recieved fair enough depth just by being a side-character. Sakura on the other hand received...no reveal on herself really.
2. Sakura's route is supposed to be the largest "Change". It is the "Adult" route. Fate:Child. UBW:Teenager. HF:Adult.
It is supposed to be the most dramatic, dark, and to show the largest change in the character as he reachs the maximum of his growth.
Obviously a True "Tsundere"(Going by the ORIGINAL term definition) character was perhaps the best choice.
3. As for her traits:
Jeolousy - Saber is a Knight and a "Noble" Figure, one who also previously dismantled her emotions from herself. Jeolous would not have
befitted such a character well I think. Rin does not show jeolous either. But that's because of who Rin is. She doesn't show her feelings much
and gets anything she wants if she can. If she can't, she'll give up on it. More importantly, Sakura is the only heroine with a Rival.
Saber didn't have one. Rin didn't have one. Sakura has Rin for sure. Saber is understood as a servant before a rival. But.
Rin is a clear and concrete rival to Sakura in her mind, no in reality as well.
I bring up a scene from Heaven's Feel where Rin reveals seeing Shirou for the first time, in the same place and same way Sakura first saw him.
Jeolous, yes, but not without reason. She says it in her VS Rin fights(both times):
Everything comes easy to Rin, but Sakura has to work hard. So Hard.
2. Which brings up my next point. I'd like to point out that Sakura is the only heroine who actually GAINS Shirou's love.
Seriously, think about it.
Shirou liked Rin before the storyline. And no matter what route you are in, Shirou always holds Rin in high regard.
Saber just POOF appears and Shirou almost INSTANTLY falls in love with her.
Sakura grows around and because of him. He notices her body, that's it. She has to earn his love throughout the story.
Even then that love isn't very concrete until the rain scene.
3. "Low sense of Morality" - Excuse me, what? Are you calling her a whore? Are you stupid or something?Let's see, either:
A. You're saying that enjoying sex proves you have low morality. In which case you just need to be *Censored for the inner child* and then dragged out into the field and *Moar censorship*, and then picked up and *Censorship III: In 3D!!* until you're so *Censorship 4: This time its personal* you can't ever *use a censor tag* again.
B. You're calling her a whore from the start. Which clearly proves you were not reading very well. Sakura feels ashamed and loathes herself prior to each sex scene before Shirou coerces her that it's fine because he wants her.
C. You're refering to Moral like a Commander. Into:Pride. In which case, the hell did you expect from a character who was *insert rape+torture speech that has been said 3 times this time, and will probably be used another 5 before the topic is locked*.

4. "Weak" - I find it funny that you call her that. In terms of Magic, I believe it came up that "Rin would win if we Fought, but my magic is stronger." in-game.
Unless you're refering to willpower. In which case, the girl was raped and tortured physically, mentally, and emotionally for most of her life. Discarded by her parents(From her perspective I imagine). All that, and then she still maintains herself for days upon days while the grail iz Charging itz Lazer. There are some who would consider her willpower far beyond impressive.
Certainly FAR beyond Saber's willpower to live. Not that Saber really has one...

5. "Selfish" - I actually laughed when I read this.
Saber : Ah the glorified Knight in Shining Hair. But even Saber is Selfish in many extents. She often rejects Shirou's ideas from the start, demanding her own plans over them, well...Saber's examples of "Selfishness" are low, but there are still minor traces of it and such.
Rin : I'm laughing as I write this. You called Sakura Selfish. Did you ever even THINK about Rin in comparison? If you had, you wouldn't have stated Sakura's selfishness as a fault. Rin's Selfishness makes it so no one would laugh if they saw an official picture of her stealing Saber's Throne for herself. It would fit too well to laugh.
Rin is a very selfish, very demanding, and so on. She's not that self-centered, but she is very selfish. It must and will be her way. She wants something, she takes it.
Another quality Rin shows more than Sakura is her Demented side. Rin taughts, teases, and mentally tortures most characters at her on common whim.
Sakura is a girl who lost her family and had everything else conceivable taken from her. Her right as a maiden, her body as a human, so much. Selfish?
Sakura is perhaps only slightly more selfish than Saber. The only thing she wants is Shirou. The only thing she hopes for and asks for is shirou. That's it.
She's not a "All or Nothing" person, she's a "Just This". Infact, you could compare her desire for shirou to Saber's for "The Holy Grail".


Honestly though, Sakura was my favourite Heroine. I was denied Illya, but Sakura does suffice.
I would say if there is a wonderous feature, it is the fact that she is perhaps the most honest of the heroines.
She also creates the most beefed up version of Shirou.

Though, perhaps I am biased.
I might enjoy Heaven's Feel more than the other routes because it is the true end of Fate/Stay Night.
It is what the sequel Fate/Hollow Ataraxia takes after.
And it is a route that does NOT create a fail Shirou(Fate) or Emo Shirou(UBW...Seriously. He{either shirou} cut himself{either shirou}. And wanted to kill himself{Archer}. Emo!!! We love you garcher, but you're a sexy emo servant).

In truth, I find the fact that the "Deep" side of Fate/Stay Night was combined into a single Route as very nice. Also nice is that it brings a concrete ending to the story "THIS is what happened." as opposed to something like Tsukihime which has too many very different endings to choose only one as the concrete ending.


Ah, I've typed too much. Oh well.


Two last minor things:

The whole "Dating" sim thing...Yeah no.
There have been two "Dates" in the Fate/Stay Night, one in Fate and one in UBW.
They're just too out of place.
And it's too cliche fail hentai-game style.
"The worlds ending! To save it you must seduce THIS chick so much the world magically lets you win!" *Facepalm*
I swear to god, if fate turns into every other crackjob hentai novel...I'll learn how to *Faceheel*.


About Animation:
Actually there's quite a bit of animation in Heaven's Feel that isn't in other routes.
I think the scene I noticed this most was when Dark Sakura FIRST appears(including her hyper awesome outfit and hair).
From then on I notice it in smaller but still present detail.

There's FAR more animation than nessessary in Fate/Stay Night. I need to remind you, this is a
Visual Novel.
You're still reading. And you're still supposed to be using your imagination.


P.S. : I'm hoping for the best in your favour.
This forum helped me learn I did not hate Rin. I loathed her fanboys, but not her.
I still dislike Rin, but I don't hate her. Unless a fanboy goes off on a OMGSOMOE rant, I'm generally fine with Rin.
Besides, in such cases these days they're in a position I can kick them out of the channel/game etc.
Abuse makes life worthwhile.
Isn't it sad, Sakura?
Mah signature starts here.
Behold! Twist Ties and Eroges as far as the eye can see!
Fate/Twisted Night:
http://forums.mirrormoon.org/viewtopic.php?t=2838
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