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Posted: February 4th, 2009, 7:38 am
by Inverted
Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .

Posted: February 4th, 2009, 7:50 am
by Kikuchi
Inverted wrote:
Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .
Moreover, it's only UBW becoming impossible to deploy for Shirou, besides the body being invaded by Archer's Circuits. Assuming you give GARm to Fate or UBW Shirou, they can do more hax with it than HF Shirou imo.

Posted: February 4th, 2009, 1:34 pm
by HeartCard
Had it been Rin or Saber, I believe they would actively search for a solution to end Zouken's control.
Hmm..Let's see heya...Oh this not gonna turn out so good:

You're talking about a six-eight year old child. Saber has been proven through and through to emopity at every chance.
Saber would probably have white hair(since Sakura's hair was tainted to a light purple), and be empty on the inside utterly.
Rin? Already had the makings of a magus from early age. However, from such a young age, she would probably turn out worse than sakura.
Given her mental training wasn't complete, let alone emotional training. She gets despaired somewhat easily even in the current game timeline.

There is the "Jeolousy" factor that probably highly helped maintain Sakura.
Saber I don't imagine would be able to sustain herself off such a emotion. But then again, Saber is about 26 or 35 years old if I recall correct legend.
How she was as a small child could be highly different. She might have been very humble or very stubborn. Hard to say.
Rin though. Heh. Rin would be screwed. Rin is a Genius for Magecraft. "Everything comes easy to her" it's been said. Rin in Sakura's shoes, I do not imagine
Rin could sustain herself on what little Sakura would have over her in such a case. Not to mention her emotional training at that point in her life might very well
lower the ability to live off a single burning emotion.

If you talk about Strength of Character, I would say Rin is the weakest but would not be able to point to either Saber or Sakura as stronger than the other.
Each has their specific strengths. Sakura is perhaps the only of the three who could survive the matou life she was given.
But Saber is perhaps the strongest willed character currently.
So it depends on how you want to rank it.
Whoever had the most from the start, or whoever has the most currently.
Or perhaps whoever had the higher potential.

I don't mean to offend the Rin fans, however I would say she has the weakest character of the three. She bends more than any other heroine, goes against her trainings, among other things.
Of course, without her we would not have the Fate/Stay Night story because Shirou would be dead. So perhaps her Weakness of willpower was nessessary.

*Shrug*

Posted: February 4th, 2009, 6:44 pm
by aldw
Having played through HF I ended up liking Rin even more than before surprisingly, hell the character developments there would have made an interesting RinxShirou pairing in itself worthy of a fic. :wink:

Posted: February 4th, 2009, 10:52 pm
by allanh
tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:

Posted: February 4th, 2009, 11:29 pm
by abscess
allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
That would be... certainly strange. It's not a bad idea at all, I imagine a game like that would indeed be well recieved in the VN community, but FSN, by the way it's done, can't even start wandering a bit into that path. Just think about it, HF is supposed to be Sakura's route, wouldn't it be very weird and probably even underwhelming to have a scene a bit like this:
Sakura: Oh! Shirou.... I've always loved you since.... 1.5 years...? More or less... Anyway, I love you! And more importantly, you've shown your love to me by caring for me all this time I've been in bed. Not only that, I went batshit insane and you stood by me and never left me alone. When you cry, I cry... When you are happy, I'm happy... So please... Please get rid of that woman already!!
Saber: Excuse me?

Posted: February 5th, 2009, 12:31 am
by Kikuchi
allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
Tsukihime...

Posted: February 5th, 2009, 3:58 am
by Rikh
Kikuchi wrote:
Inverted wrote:
Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .
Moreover, it's only UBW becoming impossible to deploy for Shirou, besides the body being invaded by Archer's Circuits. Assuming you give GARm to Fate or UBW Shirou, they can do more hax with it than HF Shirou imo.
well UBW shirou could do nearly all the same tracing GARcher could
With the arm activated, UBW shiro might be able to reinforce/trace at the exact same time for super powerful NP's

just the arm overall would be used to trace something that Shiro deems impossible over the course of his life, where he would need Archers and his own help to create. So they could make something super epic in UBW i think
abscess wrote:
allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
That would be... certainly strange. It's not a bad idea at all, I imagine a game like that would indeed be well recieved in the VN community, but FSN, by the way it's done, can't even start wandering a bit into that path. Just think about it, HF is supposed to be Sakura's route, wouldn't it be very weird and probably even underwhelming to have a scene a bit like this:
Sakura: Oh! Shirou.... I've always loved you since.... 1.5 years...? More or less... Anyway, I love you! And more importantly, you've shown your love to me by caring for me all this time I've been in bed. Not only that, I went batshit insane and you stood by me and never left me alone. When you cry, I cry... When you are happy, I'm happy... So please... Please get rid of that woman already!!
Saber: Excuse me?
Tears to Tiara did that...
Although the story was nice, NOTHING changed except for the fact you could choose a different heroine near the end... Which almost felt pointless (although each heroine had an awesome background explanation in the game)... overall character individual routes are better than various routes with multiple characters, i think they have more of an impact. Only my opinion though

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 7:50 pm
by Kansho
My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 8:08 pm
by Kid-Wolf
Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.
For some reason I have to agree with the Shirou and Sakura pairing over anything else. The only exception would be a Shirou and Illya pairng. I mean she did have her route taken away from her before they were going to plan on doing that.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 8:12 pm
by Inverted
Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.
Yeah in the sense that if no one was around , i.e.,Shirou didn't summon Saber or strike a friendship with Rin due to HGW ,Sakura would have got him.With the events unfolding as they did the chances were even.It could have gone any direction depending upon the situation. Just cruelly Illya got left out.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 8:20 pm
by Kansho
Well, theorically, the whole HF storyline as a climax goes for that. Sakura is a plot device regarding Shirou's behavior.

That's why she didn't even shows in Fate/UBW plot. "Sakura in danger" is like the "not injured Archer", a plot device.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 8:24 pm
by Nerroth
I really don't care for the idea that it's all down to him - or the assumption that his choice is the defining factor in how the rest of the core characters' lives will pan out from here until they're old and grey.

Or that the way people feel about each other in one point of their lives necessarily carried through into the other 50-70 or so ears they may or may not have to live out.


Life doesn't work that way.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 8:27 pm
by Raven
Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu

Bah. another reason for me to hate Sakura. :evil:

Well, with story aside I think if only Saber could stayed, her true ending would be the "perfect" ending so to speak because it couples with Illya, so it gives me a more heartwarming sense in term of a family given the relationship between Saber and Illya. Also other characters is left intact.

You might want to argue the true epilogue in HF is more heart warming, but for some reason it feels a bit superficture to me (is that a word?) and there are "too many" missing in that happy picture.

I'm a sucker for happy ending, that's all there is to it :P

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 9:41 pm
by allanh
agree with Raven.

Not only are Saber and Illya missing from the 'Good Ending' in Heavens Feel scenario, Shirou was also turned into a puppet.

The "Good Ending" of UBW is the closest thing to a happy ending, but Illya is still missing and Saber isn't Shirou's primary love interest in that picture. :(

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 9:48 pm
by Kansho
The "turned into a puppet" = stupid argument. Tohko's puppets are... bodies. He got a new body, and even Rin spends some time explaining why Shirou IS EXACTLY the same old Emiya Shirou. I don't understand why people can get this.

UBW's Good Ending it's a harem ending without sense. Really.

The whole thing about HF True being happy is because it's the climax of the game, and the characters can get as happy they want, as the final dojo says. Yes, it's a pity for Saber and Ilya, but that's all. Well, Saber it's the same as dead at the HF5 time, and Ilya can't be saved (she will die in a year).

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 9:54 pm
by Nerroth
There is no reason to assume that after UBW-Good, there is no scope for further character development, or that the part about Saber staying around can be anything more than an optional extra.

There's a lot that Saber can make out of a second life... and she deserves the chance more than many.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 9:56 pm
by Kansho
Yeah, that's true. But we will never get to see any of that.

Posted: February 10th, 2009, 10:00 pm
by Nerroth
Time will tell.

Posted: February 11th, 2009, 12:29 am
by Raven
Kansho wrote: The whole thing about HF True being happy is because it's the climax of the game, and the characters can get as happy they want, as the final dojo says. Yes, it's a pity for Saber and Ilya, but that's all. Well, Saber it's the same as dead at the HF5 time, and Ilya can't be saved (she will die in a year).
That's all? THAT'S ALL? THAT'S ALL YOU SAY? :shock:

It's like saying "our town just got hit by the biggest typhoon in history, but that's all". :?

Like I said, I prefer Saber's ending independently of the story element, it's more in a character attachment sense. Personally I never like Sakura, for some reason I already dislike her before I read UBW and HF, and I don't find my feeling improved after HF at all.


Illya: see, I don't mind she disappearing in UBW because she didn't really make any attachment. However both Fate and HF she has grown to become a part of the Emiya family, it just doesn't feel right not to see here there at the end.

Sakura: no matter what they can do, Sakura's crime can not be forgotten or forgiven, she can try to overcome it but it's a shadow that will forever be there. I seriously doubt anyone can live happily with such a heavy conscience even if your have iron nerves.

Saber: no matter how strong mentality Shirou can have and how he justifies it, the fact remain that he had to kill her.

Sure we have Raider, but she's more like a bonus that doesn't really fit into anywhere, she's nice to have around but she does not hold the same impact and meaning that Saber and Illya could.


So no matter how I paint it, HF is a picture filled with lost and regret, that's why I meant the HF's happy ending is just too superfictial , not because Shirou's physical state, but more like the possibility of such a life. Come to think of it it could be the reason I dislike Sakura, because HF is technically a "destroy everything for Sakura's sake" story, I know it's the theme, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.