Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

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Kansho
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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:39 am

Well yeah, but they said all of that in HF because they sell that route as the "grand finale", the "climax", the "end of a lot of things", blabla...

It's symbolism. We didn't get it to that extent until that.

But ok, I see your point.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Nerroth » February 11th, 2009, 3:46 am

I know what you are getting that, but I would counter that even Fate/Zero (which goes back, not forward, I know) may not have even been an idea in anyone's mind when the VN was first published...

...but there are other franchises, from Gundam to Star Trek to Transformers, which have gone far beyond their origins, as Fate has the potential to do.


But, we'll see where Fate goes, if anywhere, from here on.

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Unread post by Raven » February 11th, 2009, 3:53 am

Kansho wrote: Really, you're acting like a fanboy.

HF True End is happy because, even if they lost things, they gained better things as a reward. Even the final dojo says it, they will be HAPPY AS THEY CAN GET.

Yeah, it's a pity that Saber and Ilya can get it as well. But Nasu wanted it that way. He even thought about a HF Good End with Saber and Ilya alive, but probably he thought that was ridiculous or something. Blame him.
From my experience fanboys don't give reason to their argument, and I think I did. In fact, I don't see you counter my points at all, rather than just dimiss it :?

Seriously dude, I don't find anything unreasonable in my post for you to attack it. True, I may have a stronger affiliate toward Saber and Ilya just like you seem to have a stronger affiliate for Sakura, but all fall within the boundary of acceptable reasoning.

Now can you help me clarify which part making me a fanboy, as in things you don't agree with me but let see if you can flat out say I'm not reasonable, or even wrong:


- Sakura: she's still responsible for the deaths of hundreds, even if she tried to live for atonement, even if she mean to live a better life like she said, can she live with a clear conscience of what happened? Is it very unreasonable to claim that a person who carried such sin will need more than an iron will to lead a happy life? Am I wrong?

- Shirou: he had to kill the knight who had worked, fought for, and protected him. The image when he struck down the knife showed how strong he feels about the act, even if he says he will forget and erase those last image of her from his mind, can he really do it? Can he really forgive himself? Am I wrong?

- Illya: like I said, her death doesn't matter in UBW since she was never forged an attachment like she does in Fate or HF. To put it in a way you understand, I don't care when someone I don't know die, I care when someone in my family die however. As long as she lives, it's a place she can be, she may die but her death will be one that you would be able to shed tears for as a family. Do you understand? Am I wrong? (So maybe instead of dismiss it as a wall of text, how about reading it more carefully? Since this is the "third" time I say it)


So once again, the HF's happy picture is filled with scarifies and regrets. Is this an unreasonable impression?

In case you want to go Nasu this Nasu that. No matter what the writer wants to write, it's still up to the readers to interpret his writing and decide whether it's good, bad, reasonable, cheesy, unbelievable ...etc... And simply in my case, I classify HF's ending as superfictial, it's the kind of happiness that to me impossible to achieve given the price it's paid. There are people who become Priests and Monks to atone for their past and even then they still find it impossible to clear their conscience, there are so many unhappiness in HF's happy ending that makes me feel that "THEY WILL BE AS HAPPY AS THEY GET" is just a romantic way to paint an unrealistic future. Am I being unreasonable.

The reason I prefer Saber ends where she can stay not because it's fair or what, but because (as I already said) it has the most cozy feeling of the three. It's a setting that makes me believe of a possible happy future. The same thing can be said for UBW's true end (I don't like UBW's happy end however). Both of them give a warm feeling, they show connection that were forged through hardship and hard earnt but the flavor is still possible to savor. I prefer the Saber's end simply because of Illya and her development with Saber, again, like a family whether UBW it's just Rin and Shirou. I don't dismiss the HF scenario, if I have to say it's one with the strongest love theme, it's beautiful but it's not the kind of beauty I can appreciate. And for all the reasons above, I just can not imagine such a happy future Am I a fanboy for NOT LIKING it?


And again, if you want to go Nasu this Nasu that, I'll tell you my stand point about Original Writers, not just nasu but of any fictional work. The ONLY power an original writer has is the power to make certain things canon, and nothing else, not what is the best, not what is the most appropriate, not whatsoever. Hey George Lucas created Starwar, does that mean he always know what best to write about the franchise? You'll find a lot of opposition if your answer is yes. Do I claim I actually know better? Of course not, however the point is that outside canon issue, it's a fair game when we can represent a certain decree of validity to our argument (I.E not just something like Saber is hot!! and that's the reason). So it's a moot point to bring Nasu's opinion into this line of discussion, if you don't acknowledge that there is no point to discuss, and if you do I hope you don't attack my point of view. :roll:
Last edited by Raven on February 11th, 2009, 4:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

aldw
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Unread post by aldw » February 11th, 2009, 4:10 am

I do agree with Raven's points, for quite a number of fans did feel that the HF normal end had a more appropriate feel than the happy ending, due to the aforementioned plot points (especially the devastation suffered by Fuyuki civvies). Regardless of Nasu's opinion, whatever is not set in stone (a la Harry Potter) is left as a possible outcome, and this is true not only for the Nasuverse, but Star Wars, Star Trek, Gundam, etc.

One thing to consider with regard to possible happy outcomes is F/HA's scenario, which is what I would envision if the corruption of the grail and Kotomine's duplicity was discovered early on.

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Unread post by abscess » February 11th, 2009, 4:47 am

Kansho wrote:And this is becoming a chat so it's better to stop it.
This is the name of this particula sub-forum: Fate/stay night Chat
Shourai wrote:And this IS a chat. As long as we don't stray from the path of our discussion, which is F/sn heroines and endings, I see no problem.
From what I've seen during my stay in this place, that seems to be right.

Anyways, going back to the real topic. In a way, Kansho is right, Nasu's words are practically the law when it comes to his universe. If he happens to decide that FSN's real ending is the never released Stray Servant's ending, then it is as the man says. The problem is, since we are talking about literature, it's completely okay to say that you, Raven or anyone understands something as something different. Why? Because that's what literature is about. The author is there to create the world and the reader to understand it anyway he or she wants it to. This is not science, where the truth is the only right way to go.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 6:30 am

aldw wrote: Regardless of Nasu's opinion, whatever is not set in stone (a la Harry Potter) is left as a possible outcome, and this is true not only for the Nasuverse, but Star Wars, Star Trek, Gundam, etc.
Agreed. And I think it has to be noted that Nasu only voiced his opinion. Not some fact about the game. If I were to rephrase his words, it would be "I think Sakura is best suited for Shirou" or "If I were Shirou, Sakura is the one for me." But point is, he is NOT Shirou.

Now that we have cleared it out, can we move on? :)

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 12:25 pm

Well, Nasu don't prefer Sakura, he's talking as a author. But he prefer Saber and Rin.

@Raven: That's why he said that, even if they lost things, they gained better things. It's Nasu's point, blame him. You can get happiness without sacrifices, that's what he said. But the outcome is happy, if you didn't see it, then you are blind because YOUR character isn't in that happy picture. It's like Ilya said in the onsen dojo.

And about Shirou... hell yeah, in HF Saber tried to protect him... killing him right? Saber was trying to KILL him. It's only that Shirou is too good as a person and always automatically blame himself. She was unsalvable, she was in his way, and she was trying to kill him. At that moment, she was like Kotomine. Even she blames you with all her strength if you choose not to kill her.

If the game said that they Shirou, Sakura, Rin and Rider will be happy as they can get, then your post is utterly nonsensical (aside for Ilya). Yeah, it's a pity, but it's that way. One of the points in this game is that you have to leave some things behind you and look to the future.
Last edited by Kansho on February 11th, 2009, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 12:35 pm

Kansho wrote:Well, Nasu don't prefer Sakura, he's talking as a author.
Funny, I didn't sense a feeling of authority in that statement at all. It's like he's just voicing his opinion.
Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 12:45 pm

Because he don't want to impose nothing and he didn't want to see angry fans. But well, the last time that the staff reviewed heroines, he gave Saber and Rin more points that to Sakura.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 12:48 pm

Kansho wrote:Because he don't want to impose nothing
So that's it. It's settled, then. If the author himself is not even trying to impose anything about his story, I don't see why you should. :P

He gave his points to Saber and Rin more than to Sakura. What points? Points as a character? That's different. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 1:13 pm

In a heroine review.

Well, but I wasn't at this anymore, I am at how Raven seem to want to say me that HF True isn't a happy ending and superficial, when the game clearly states otherwise. If you think that the Normal End fits more, then you didn't get the meaning of the symbolism at the end. A sad end isn't necessarily a better end.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 1:22 pm

He wasn't saying it wasn't a happy ending. He just said that it doesn't seem that they will be able to get as happy as possible like the game said, for what have happened in HF. In short, Raven refuted the fact that HF True End is supposed to be the happiest ending in F/sn. Cause it's not. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 1:47 pm

It's the happiest ending in the game. At least, the happiest ending in Fate/stay night with sense and not ridiculous. And refuting something that the game gives you as a statement because "Saber isn't there" is biased and fanboyish.

Saber die? In HF, that her role, the same as Ilya's role in UBW, as he said. She even tried to kill Shirou, and she even blames you with all her strength if you choose not to kill her. She is YOUR FOE.
Ilya die, the same. Even she said it in the onsen dojo.

After the cold winter, the spring come. That's all.

In UBW's Good you only get a happy ending without meaning or sense. That's why is a Good End and not a True End. Ok that UBW's Good End is a happiest ending without any consistency, but negate the happiness of HF True gives us is biased.
Last edited by Kansho on February 11th, 2009, 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Shourai
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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 1:51 pm

Kansho wrote:It's the happiest ending in HF. At least, the happiest ending in Fate/stay night with sense. And refuting something that the game gives you as a statement because "Saber isn't there" is biased and fanboyish.

Saber die? In HF, that her role, the same as Ilya's role in UBW, as he said.
Ilya die, the same. Even she said it in the onsen dojo.

After the winter, the spring come. That's all.

In UBW's Good you only get a happy ending without meaning or sense. That's why is a Good End and not a True End.
Ah, I think we're a bit off here. I, so did Raven, never said anything about Saber and Ilya died is the main reason why HF True End isn't the best end possible.

Read Raven's post above for more details. He has some points he wanted to show you. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 1:55 pm

Yeah, now I'm blind.

Raven: "You might want to argue the true epilogue in HF is more heart warming, but for some reason it feels a bit superficture to me (is that a word?) and there are "too many" missing in that happy picture."

Shourai: And "they" refer to? The survivors. I think Raven meant it's not about what's good; it's about what's fair. Razz UBW Good End was fair to everyone. I'm not saying it's the best End (meh, I even find it ridiculous), but everyone gets as happy as possible.

I get out of this, this is turning stupider as time pass.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 2:04 pm

Kansho wrote:Yeah, now I'm blind.

Raven: "You might want to argue the true epilogue in HF is more heart warming, but for some reason it feels a bit superficture to me (is that a word?) and there are "too many" missing in that happy picture."

Shourai: And "they" refer to? The survivors. I think Raven meant it's not about what's good; it's about what's fair. Razz UBW Good End was fair to everyone. I'm not saying it's the best End (meh, I even find it ridiculous), but everyone gets as happy as possible.

I get out of this, this is turning stupider as time pass.
I think you're a bit narrow-minded there. Everyone as I said doesn't only refer to the casts. Townsfolk and the likes are also counted. And yeah, you have a point if you say that. Because I never said anything about Saber and Ilya surviving being the main reason of HF is not the best ending. In UBW Good End, Ilya also died, mind you.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 2:10 pm

Yeah, I'm quite bit narrow-minded with things like this. But I keep my point, negate the happiness in HF True is like negate any other statement made in the game.

And I want to stop this. This is going to nowhere. What do you want to discuss now?
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by allanh » February 11th, 2009, 2:18 pm

imho, the reason why any ending is deemed to be sad is because of absense of Saber being with Shirou.

Yeah, you can call me a fanboy. But I think a "fanboy" is more like someone who idolises a popstar. To me, Saber is the ultimate lover. If I were in Shirou's shoes, whether Saber turns dark or not is irrelevant. She would always be the most important girl in my eyes and if I were Shirou, I would gladly die for her.

With that in mind, I think UBW Good Ending the only acceptable ending to me.

Disclaimer: The above are just personal opinion/feelings. Logistics of the storyline are secondary
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Unread post by Raven » February 11th, 2009, 2:24 pm

I'm tired of typing something and having it ignored, so just for re-stating shake...
Kansho wrote:It's the happiest ending in the game. At least, the happiest ending in Fate/stay night with sense and not ridiculous. And refuting something that the game gives you as a statement because "Saber isn't there" is biased and fanboyish.
It's the happiest ending in the game. At least, the happiest ending in Fate/stay night with sense and not ridiculous. And refuting something that the game gives you because of many reason: "Saber isn't there", Shirou's guilt, Sakura's sin, Illya's death, hundread of deaths ...etc... is a valid opinion Fixed that for you.

Raven wrote: The reason I prefer Saber ends where she can stay not because it's fair or what, but because (as I already said) it has the most cozy feeling of the three. It's a setting that makes me believe of a possible happy future. The same thing can be said for UBW's true end (I don't like UBW's happy end however). Both of them give a warm feeling, they show connection that were forged through hardship and hard earnt but the flavor is still possible to savor. I prefer the Saber's end simply because of Illya and her development with Saber, again, like a family whether UBW it's just Rin and Shirou. I don't dismiss the HF scenario, if I have to say it's one with the strongest love theme, it's beautiful but it's not the kind of beauty I can appreciate. And for all the reasons above, I just can not imagine such a happy future


And lastly, I say this again because you seem unable to reconize it. The game has all the right to say what it wants, if Nasu wants to come out and say something actually happen, there is no way I can argue about it, that's his authority so there was never any contest there. What I am to say (and other people also said) that as readers, while we can not argue for the canon path of the story, it's up to us to argue over what is, in our opinion the better, even if it's a better alternative. For heaven sake a real happy ending for Saber does not even exist (I don't count the one in Relta Nua as happy) so really, the angle you try to argue against me kind of mood really.


Btw, if you want to continue, stay and talk like a man and respect other opinion. If you want to drop, do so, but if you do, please do it in style. Declaring you will drop because it's stupid just to come back one post after to refute the point then stupidity again, I don't think it's very mature. Plus this is what we're talking about, you're the only one getting pissed off for no reason :wink:

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 2:26 pm

@Raven:
Well, I got a neutral stand since the beginning. It's only you that can't get the meaning of the ending and you seek some kind of ultimate happy ending that didn't exist. Ok, do as you want. But Nasu thinks that even if they sacrificed things, they got plenty of happiness as a reward. And in some way it's the truth. Life isn't perfect, and this is a story, a story need things like this to be a good one. You can say that you didn't liked it, but you can't say they will not be happy as they can get, because that's the whole point of the ending... and even the whole game, as we are talking about the climax of the whole game.

And with Saber, I only used the same argument as you with Ilya in UBW. She wasn't important here.

And I really want to stop this, so please, stop.

@allanh:
First (as a joke):
Image

Second:
Well, you always have the Last Episode in Realta Nua, too.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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