Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 14th, 2009, 6:00 am

Well there was that Hit that Demotivational that made King Arthur look a bit girlish there. I mean the kid was in his pre-teenage years, wasn't he?
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 14th, 2009, 6:05 am

All kids in their pre-teenage years look girlish. All MEN originally were girls... but grew the thing necessary for being a male cuz of a tostesterone injection in the womb.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 23rd, 2009, 8:05 pm

Well, just wanted to post something on-topic.

SPOILERS FOR ALL ROUTES

FATE
I thought the ending was perfect. Sad, but it fit, and I personally thought it was the only ending that would do justice to the route. I guess it's a bittersweet one, an ending that would make you cry but still feel some happiness, even though I didn't cry.

I liked Saber, and she fit as a love interest for Shirou. Don't know why others didn't like this route, I loved it. It's a basic Holy Grail Route that focuses mainly on Master/Servants, unlike HF which had less of the war for the Grail. The only things I didn't like about it are:
1)I hated Shirou in this. His personality and everything I didn't like at all.
2)The first H-Scene and the reasoning for it was so predictable, I knew the scene was going to happen the moment Rin tells Shirou that Saber has like no magical energy. Also, there should've been more Rin in that scene D=

UBW
Favorite Route, just a bit above Fate. Almost equal, but this one won out.

I definitely liked the True Ending. It wasn't sad, the ShirouxRin made a lot of sense, and it really seemed like they loved each other. The Good Ending was OK, I felt like it was there because they needed one happy ending. I didn't like how it was the day after, because you don't see any after-effects of what happened. And the epilogue with Archer was also awesome, it made everything else make sense.

I love Rin, she's my favorite character. Partly because she's pretty, partly because she's pretty similar to Yukiko from Persona 4 in looks and premise, who's another one of my favorite characters. She wasn't super mean in this one, but a lot of scenes with her were pretty funny. I loved the Magical Bullet Shooter scene and the one where she tries to fight Shirou because he goes to school on Day 4. Also, the H scene was pretty funny, but I thought it was believable.

I also loved the whole Archer plot, it was pretty epic. The only things I didn't like were:
1)Only one H Scene (I'm a guy, shoot me) that was at the end.
2)I kind of noticed how Rin became similar to Fate Shirou, and it seemed a bit weird after playing Fate beforehand. I mean, in Fate, Shirou wants to show Saber fun things and tries to get her to be a little more selfish about her wish and all. In UBW, Tohsaka does the same thing, taking Shirou on a date to get him to realize that he's disregarding his life and all pleasure.

HF


Honestly, I didn't like this route. Someone said it was a psychological horror, and it worked. Most of the time I was either bored or a little put off from the weird things that occurred.

The endings were OK. I didn't like the Normal One because Shirou died, and I just thought it was weird to have the main character die. True Ending was a bit better, but still, it didn't seem too happy.

I did not like Sakura at all. Sure, she had a lot done to her as a kid, but still, I just didn't like her personality. Before I played HF, I thought she was pretty cutesy, but after learning all that happened to her, I was just "meh." To be honest though, the scene where Shirou goes to her in the rain after she runs away from the church was beautiful. Also, the H scenes involving her were strange and I honestly didn't like them. The fact that I watched pretty much the same thing 3 times was meh. It even seemed that the creators of the game got tired with it too, with the very last one being like 2 minutes long.

Other reasons why I don't like HF:
1)Too much church/Kotomine scenes. Not really a fan of the character, he's just kinda boring.
2)Not a fan of Matou Zouken as a character either, didn't like him at all.
3)Totally discarded the Holy Grail War and Master/Servant storyline. No battles for a while, lose the Servants too early, etc. 4)Honestly, I didn't like Shirou and how he discarded his ideals. He just seemed like a weird character.
5)About Sakura's past, and the whole Route in general, it just seemed they tried to make it as dark and disturbing as possible, throwing in horrible things to happen all on one character. Like I said earlier, a lot of it was strange.
6)The whole feel of the Route wasn't as fun. Even the Tiger Dojo wasn't funny at all.
7)Definitely too little fighting in the middle, where they just stay home and take care of Sakura and whatnot. Also the patrols were boring.
8) I didn't like the whole shadow thing, it just felt...well, boring to me.
9) The characters totally changed. Shirou changed, Rin changed for the worse, Ilya was less cute kid and more Grail Vessel, and cool people like Lancer and Archer were gone.

The only things I honestly liked were Rider, some random funny scenes, and the final few fight scenes. Also, Saber Alter is one cool looking chick.

So that's my long post about heroines/endings. Kinda became a review of the routes, but oh well. Also, does everyone else think the BGM Ever-Present Feeling is sad?
smartazjb0y
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 37
Joined: July 23rd, 2009, 7:29 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 23rd, 2009, 9:26 pm

1)Too much church/Kotomine scenes. Not really a fan of the character, he's just kinda boring.

Kotomine is the single awesomest char in FSN. Maybe not awesomest, but rather high up there. He is showing up right at the right times, says the right things and pretty much tells Shirou what he needs to hear. He's really an Anti-Villain in HF, too much good done by him.

2)Not a fan of Matou Zouken as a character either, didn't like him at all.

Agreed, nothing much to say.

3)Totally discarded the Holy Grail War and Master/Servant storyline. No battles for a while, lose the Servants too early, etc.

The whole point was that the shit hit the fan and the Grail War was no longer important. With a thing that absorbs life energy like a vacuum cleaner, I doubt the main cast is going to continue fighting the Grail War s they did. Although they still do - their main plan is to win the War and wish Sakura's body to be fixed. At least before Sakura goes Villain-mode.

4)Honestly, I didn't like Shirou and how he discarded his ideals. He just seemed like a weird character.

I actually find it admirable. It takes a lot of guts to change the direction of your life 180 degrees just for the sake of one person. Fighting skills aside, HF Shirou is perhaps the strongest mentally of the three Shirous, since he had to face a lot more.

5)About Sakura's past, and the whole Route in general, it just seemed they tried to make it as dark and disturbing as possible, throwing in horrible things to happen all on one character. Like I said earlier, a lot of it was strange.

Sakura is a Woobie and a butt monkey, so suffering's an obvious thing for her. To be serious though - without all that stuff done to her, the whole route just wouldn't exist. And without her sufferings it would've become a copy of UBW route, without Archer's betrayal(or with - the only reasons he didn't betray was the Shadow and cuz Shirou threw away his ideals).

6)The whole feel of the Route wasn't as fun. Even the Tiger Dojo wasn't funny at all.

The Tiger Dojo scenes were fitting for the route. Even gag corners need some srsnss sometimes.

7)Definitely too little fighting in the middle, where they just stay home and take care of Sakura and whatnot. Also the patrols were boring.

I bet FSN was among the only VNs you could play. Cuz, to be quite frank, I want to slap you silly and drop you from the tenth floor for this comment. VNS AREN'T ABOUT FIGHTING!!! Go play a hack 'n slash if you want fighting. VNs are about character interaction, and this was just that. DEAL WITH IT.

8) I didn't like the whole shadow thing, it just felt...well, boring to me.

I'm not going to even start here.

9) The characters totally changed. Shirou changed, Rin changed for the worse, Ilya was less cute kid and more Grail Vessel, and cool people like Lancer and Archer were gone.

With an addition of OVER 9000 GrimDark points and the elevation(or demotion?) of the whole situation to Squickland of Crapsackiness, it's obvious people are going to act differently.
Shirou's change was already discussed above in my post.
Rin just started acting like she was supposed to. You know, like a magus? That's what most magi are like in nasuverse buddy. Cold and ruthless.
I suppose you missed a lot of Shirou&Ilya scenes then. She was, in fact, MORE like a little girl in terms of appearance ratio - she appeared in HF perhaps thrice as much as in Fate, and her little girl-scenes were more numerous than Grail Vessel-scenes. You do realize that she is like 20 or something, right? She ain't no little girl. She's a magus of the Einzbern family and that says a lot.
Lancer had enough appearances in UBW. Too much GAR can be bad too, you know.
Archer did the right thing by giving Shirou his arm. It allowed Captain Obvious to grow up a bit, at least compared to Fate, where he just went ahead blindly.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 23rd, 2009, 9:51 pm

I'm not rejecting their changes, I'm just saying I didn't like how it turned out.

Also, I'm saying there's too little fighting compared to the other routes. It felt weird to be experiencing epic UBW and Archer/Shirou fight, then go to here and experience a lot less. Still, the end fights kinda made up for it.

So, the main thing I didn't like was the overall "take what we built up and discard it." Yes, things change drastically when shit hits the fan, but I just didn't like where it ended up.

Oh, and if I was too focused on fighting, I wouldn't have ended up finishing the game, amirite? I DID happen to post that the things I liked involved storyline, not just epic fights. Well, H scenes too.
smartazjb0y
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 37
Joined: July 23rd, 2009, 7:29 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Dark_Habit » July 24th, 2009, 1:58 am

I agree with smartazjb0y.

Unlimited Blade Works had the best action and endings as far as I was concerned.Too bad the anime was mainly a Fate version, though it was still pretty good.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
User avatar
Dark_Habit
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 275
Joined: May 23rd, 2009, 9:51 am
Location: Next to Death

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 24th, 2009, 9:38 am

There's always the manga.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 24th, 2009, 11:33 am

Well the way the manga is going it kind of wants to go into UBW, but tends to meander back to Fate. Heck with reading volume 4, that came out in bookstores already, they reversed the setting of Rin and Saber staying at the house. Although oddly enough it seems like an improvement for the story. Not only that, but the bonus story that was between Fuji-nee and Saber seemed more along the line on what she would of done in the first place. Also, I really think Sakura would of attemped to take Saber on since it seemed that Fuji-nee left Shirou in Saber's care.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 24th, 2009, 8:32 pm

Just want to elaborate on my big review post.

HF
OK, I admit that I didn't like most of the route, but Day 16, the last day, definitely made up for most of it. I don't really like Sakura, but I really like Dark Sakura, who's pretty creepy. I loved the part where you choose to save Saber, and she's talking about how she killed Rin. Good stuff. Also, the True End was good, lots better than the Normal End.
smartazjb0y
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 37
Joined: July 23rd, 2009, 7:29 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » July 24th, 2009, 9:24 pm

Well she didn't kill Rin perse but more along the line of absorbing her being. Also, she did state that Rin was crying because she was going through the same torture that Sakura went though. Also, in a twisted way she decided to take in Shirou as well since he was rather nice to Saber. Besides you could say that this was the so-called harem ending that the second to last Tiger Dojo was talking about.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 24th, 2009, 9:42 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant. She was creepy and evil, and I liked that for some reason. In that scene, her lines "Maybe you can go join her and hold her hand or something" creeped me out, but it totally fit and showed how evil she became.
smartazjb0y
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 37
Joined: July 23rd, 2009, 7:29 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Dark_Habit » July 24th, 2009, 9:44 pm

Heh, In a way it was a good thing that HF turned out to be like a horror story.
Life is but a River.
A continuous flow,relentless till it reaches its destination.
Rocks,rapids,falls hinder not the flow of the strong.
It has its ups,and its downs.
And in the end,peacefully.......
It dissipates into to vast Ocean.
User avatar
Dark_Habit
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 275
Joined: May 23rd, 2009, 9:51 am
Location: Next to Death

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 25th, 2009, 5:13 pm

...You're all a bunch of creepy sadists...
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 26th, 2009, 12:48 am

I am more or less neutral on the matter of Sakura... Or maybe a little sympathetic. However, I liked Heaven's Feel quite a bit not because of Sakura, but because of the fact that, for once, Shirou knows what he is doing. I feel that in Fate and UBW, when Shirou talks, it is the "Champion of Justice" talking. In Heaven's Feel, on the other hand, when Shirou talks, he is really speaking his genuine wish. Plus, Ilya's "There is no turning back for the boy now" soliloquy after the Nine Bullet Revolver scene just instantly dissolved all my rage against Shirou accumulated through the first two routes.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby SolarAdept » July 26th, 2009, 2:50 pm

That's what I'm saying. Shirou is so much more protagonistic in HF, simply because he actually does what he wants to do and not some silly ideal that's not even possible. Not to say that it's bad, just HF Shirou was more realistic than the other two.
Fate/World Providence - A site dedicated to it's Grail War RP.
User avatar
SolarAdept
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 239
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 27th, 2009, 8:48 pm

SolarAdept wrote:That's what I'm saying. Shirou is so much more protagonistic in HF, simply because he actually does what he wants to do and not some silly ideal that's not even possible. Not to say that it's bad, just HF Shirou was more realistic than the other two.


He also ceases to be, in my opinion, a unique and interesting character. Fate and UBW Shirous, while naive and delusional, are interesting for exactly that reason. Fate/UBW Shirou places others before himself to the point of actually lacking a normal, healthy sense of self. What separates him from any other shounen-archetype boy hero that wants to save the world is that he lives in a world that can't be saved, he knows it, and pursues his impossible ideal anyway for reasons he himself doesn't fully understand (or want to admit to himself). He suffers from cognitive dissonance, and if he were evaluated by a psychiatrist in the real word, could probably be said to have a mental disease. Fate/UBW Shirou is an unusual, unstable, self-flagellating sort of hero that I find myself rooting for, sympathizing with, and even admiring, despite his lunatic ideal.

Heavens Feel Shirou is just another moral relativist anti-hero, and they're a dime a dozen. While HF Shirou is certainly more realistic and arguably more badass, I find as the story arc goes on that I'm no longer rooting for him. He kills people and allows many more to die for the sake of one person, his chosen love Sakura, who I personally don't care for at all. He's alienated himself from me, and has ceased to be heroic (yes, I realize that's in large part the point - I don't have to like it though).
User avatar
Oolinthu
Addict
 
Posts: 76
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 2:17 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Altima of the Gates » July 28th, 2009, 12:32 am

Oolinthu wrote:
SolarAdept wrote:That's what I'm saying. Shirou is so much more protagonistic in HF, simply because he actually does what he wants to do and not some silly ideal that's not even possible. Not to say that it's bad, just HF Shirou was more realistic than the other two.


He also ceases to be, in my opinion, a unique and interesting character. Fate and UBW Shirous, while naive and delusional, are interesting for exactly that reason. Fate/UBW Shirou places others before himself to the point of actually lacking a normal, healthy sense of self. What separates him from any other shounen-archetype boy hero that wants to save the world is that he lives in a world that can't be saved, he knows it, and pursues his impossible ideal anyway for reasons he himself doesn't fully understand (or want to admit to himself). He suffers from cognitive dissonance, and if he were evaluated by a psychiatrist in the real word, could probably be said to have a mental disease. Fate/UBW Shirou is an unusual, unstable, self-flagellating sort of hero that I find myself rooting for, sympathizing with, and even admiring, despite his lunatic ideal.

Heavens Feel Shirou is just another moral relativist anti-hero, and they're a dime a dozen. While HF Shirou is certainly more realistic and arguably more badass, I find as the story arc goes on that I'm no longer rooting for him. He kills people and allows many more to die for the sake of one person, his chosen love Sakura, who I personally don't care for at all. He's alienated himself from me, and has ceased to be heroic (yes, I realize that's in large part the point - I don't have to like it though).


Really, I can't say he entirely abandons it, for if he did, he wouldn't suffer so much throughout the route. What you saw that was interesting in him is very much still there. In a fucked up situation like this, he blames himself more than anyone, is pained by the loss of others (he was in tears - Rin even calls him on it when she sees him -when they check out the news reports of the Shadow's murders. If he was as you are describing here, then he wouldn't be tortured everyday. What he is trying to do is find the median of 'ally of justice' and an ally of my loved ones.' If he truly was only interested in Sakura's affairs, he wouldn't CRY for others.

Also, Shirou isn't any less self-destructive at all. If there is going to be a sacrifice, he still would rather it be himself than other people. He always has been and will always be his own judge, jury, and executioner. We get the dialogue about the pain and torment Archer's arm always gives him, and whether he would want to take the easy road out and cut it off, but he doesn't, nay, he won't. He believes it to be his punishment to bear. His atonement.

Also, think about this: If you think Shirou was so completely on the Kiritsugu-esque standard of heroism, why didn't he kill Ilya in Fate? She was very much a murderer, killed Shinji when she had the power and leverage to let him go, and threatened Saber and Rin's lives many times. Shouldn't she face some punishment?

The ideal he strives for is similar to Kiritsugu's, but he wants to take it to the next step, "even if there is a situation where someone is to be sacrificed, I want a solution where nobody is hurt." He damned himself when people suffered, he damned himself when his loved ones were hurt, he was overjoyed when people were spared, and he was overjoyed when his loves ones were safe. A hero cannot rest, cannot falter, because people will forsake him if he doesn't produce results. Where is the person in the hero's corner? Where is his respite? If you are willing to praise and root for him when he sacrifices himself, then you should understand and sympathize with him as a person when a situation like this arises. Even a martyr should have the right to rest.
User avatar
Altima of the Gates
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 36
Joined: December 1st, 2008, 4:06 am

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » July 28th, 2009, 1:18 am

Oolinthu wrote:He also ceases to be, in my opinion, a unique and interesting character. Fate and UBW Shirous, while naive and delusional, are interesting for exactly that reason. Fate/UBW Shirou places others before himself to the point of actually lacking a normal, healthy sense of self. What separates him from any other shounen-archetype boy hero that wants to save the world is that he lives in a world that can't be saved, he knows it, and pursues his impossible ideal anyway for reasons he himself doesn't fully understand (or want to admit to himself). He suffers from cognitive dissonance, and if he were evaluated by a psychiatrist in the real word, could probably be said to have a mental disease. Fate/UBW Shirou is an unusual, unstable, self-flagellating sort of hero that I find myself rooting for, sympathizing with, and even admiring, despite his lunatic ideal.

Heavens Feel Shirou is just another moral relativist anti-hero, and they're a dime a dozen. While HF Shirou is certainly more realistic and arguably more badass, I find as the story arc goes on that I'm no longer rooting for him. He kills people and allows many more to die for the sake of one person, his chosen love Sakura, who I personally don't care for at all. He's alienated himself from me, and has ceased to be heroic (yes, I realize that's in large part the point - I don't have to like it though).

Now this is an argument that makes sense! However, Emiya Shirou's ideal was a lost cause in Heaven's Feel either way. He could choose either to kill or save Sakura. If he killed Sakura, he then followed Kiritsugu's footsteps of "killing one to save many" rather than staying true to his ideal of "a Hero of Justice will save everyone". If he saved Sakura, then he also abandoned his ideal as we all know. If men were machines, then killing one to save many is a perfectly logical choice, but what makes a human different from a machine is that a human can make illogical choices based on passion. However, Shirou's choice was not without retribution. The whole HF route is essentially the self-destruction of Shirou in slow motion. I find Shirou's decision to stay true to Sakura and brave the punishment for his sins very admirable.
Are we Beast's Lair Lite? Are we?!
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby smartazjb0y » July 28th, 2009, 2:37 am

When the choice is given in the scene with Ilya, I honestly disagreed with both outcomes. It's either he steels his mind and forgets Sakura, or totally abandons his ideal. I honestly would have thought that he would tell himself that both ways were possible: that he could save Sakura while saving everyone else. In UBW, when he's faced with his own failure, and the fact that his ideal is impossible in his own future, he still stays on that path. To me, facing your own failures would be more of a deterrent than not being able to see the solution. In UBW, he literally saw himself on the path and him failing. There was no "maybe I can change, maybe there's a solution." He saw the outcomes: he tries to stick to his ideals, he flat out fails. In HF, he's faced with a problem: save Sakura or the people. Although it looks impossible, there's still a chance that he can save Sakura and his ideals, even though that chance is less than 1%. Still, that's a chance. In UBW, there is no chance: it already happened, and he failed. To me, UBW seems to challenge his ideal more than HF.
smartazjb0y
Might just like this board
 
Posts: 37
Joined: July 23rd, 2009, 7:29 pm

Re: Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

Unread postby Oolinthu » July 28th, 2009, 2:46 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:Really, I can't say he entirely abandons it, for if he did, he wouldn't suffer so much throughout the route. What you saw that was interesting in him is very much still there. In a fucked up situation like this, he blames himself more than anyone, is pained by the loss of others (he was in tears - Rin even calls him on it when she sees him -when they check out the news reports of the Shadow's murders. If he was as you are describing here, then he wouldn't be tortured everyday. What he is trying to do is find the median of 'ally of justice' and an ally of my loved ones.' If he truly was only interested in Sakura's affairs, he wouldn't CRY for others.


Fair enough, but actions speak louder than words - or tears, in this case. If you murder someone and are tortured by guilt later, you're still a murderer - case in point, Sakura. If he's looking for a medium between "ally of justice" and "ally of loved ones", he seems to have settled on a rather skewed median - ally of loved ones first, then ally of justice second, if it aligns with the first (i.e. destroying Angra Mainyu, because he and Sakura can't be happy together if the entire human race is possibly killed off).

Altima of the Gates wrote:Also, Shirou isn't any less self-destructive at all. If there is going to be a sacrifice, he still would rather it be himself than other people. He always has been and will always be his own judge, jury, and executioner. We get the dialogue about the pain and torment Archer's arm always gives him, and whether he would want to take the easy road out and cut it off, but he doesn't, nay, he won't. He believes it to be his punishment to bear. His atonement.


True enough, though there's also the little matter of fact that he'd be more or less powerless to do anything to help Sakura with one freaking arm. But there's an important difference here. He may still willingly sacrifice himself when called to, but he also willingly sacrifices many others for the sake of one person.

Altima of the Gates wrote:Also, think about this: If you think Shirou was so completely on the Kiritsugu-esque standard of heroism, why didn't he kill Ilya in Fate? She was very much a murderer, killed Shinji when she had the power and leverage to let him go, and threatened Saber and Rin's lives many times. Shouldn't she face some punishment?


Altima of the Gates wrote:The ideal he strives for is similar to Kiritsugu's, but he wants to take it to the next step, "even if there is a situation where someone is to be sacrificed, I want a solution where nobody is hurt."


It was astute of you to bring up the difference between Shirou's and Kiritsugu's ideals - however, neither has as its explicit goal revenge or punishment. Rather, one demands protection of all, the other protection of the majority, whatever the cost to the minority. There was no compelling reason for Shirou to kill Ilya, other than the worry that she might endanger him or his allies, which clearly Shirou does not believe she'll do. And she doesn't. Unlike, say, Sakura, Ilya has only attacked Masters and Servants, and allowing her to live does not tacitly forfeit the lives of hundreds of others.

EDIT: This is actually one scenario in which the hero of justice ideal more or less works, and he's able to save everyone involved... well, except Berserker.

Altima of the Gates wrote:He damned himself when people suffered, he damned himself when his loved ones were hurt, he was overjoyed when people were spared, and he was overjoyed when his loves ones were safe. A hero cannot rest, cannot falter, because people will forsake him if he doesn't produce results. Where is the person in the hero's corner? Where is his respite? If you are willing to praise and root for him when he sacrifices himself, then you should understand and sympathize with him as a person when a situation like this arises. Even a martyr should have the right to rest.


Poetic. But the point to address here is that he isn't a hero anymore, and if he's a martyr, he's Sakura's martyr, not the people's. He isn't just resting, taking a respite from his role as a hero, he's forsaken it. He's betrayed both his and Kiritsugu's ideals, and is essentially taking care of him and his. He lets hundreds of people die when he has the power to prevent it, and even when he does eventually destroy the Grail, saving the world is more of an afterthought than anything else - it's still "Get lost. Sakura can't smile if you exist."

Essentially, Heavens Feel Shirou is a morally convoluted anti-hero, the realistic, believably "grey" character found in a thousand other stories - and far less interesting than the previous Shirous. Now, I'll be the first to admit that in his position, I'd probably do the same thing. But I root for heroes, not jerk-offs like me.

EDIT: @ Keeper of Gil's Vault
Except there isn't any punishment. All the mental and physical deterioration he suffers as he pushes himself to his limits and beyond to save Sakura at any cost gets erased at the end as he's given a brand new body. At the conclusion he's living a happy, peaceful life banging Sakura all day. He's decided to forget about Saber and presumably Ilya, and has essentially gotten off scott-fucking-free.
User avatar
Oolinthu
Addict
 
Posts: 76
Joined: February 8th, 2009, 2:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests