Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

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Shourai
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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 12:52 am

Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu
Well, this is good and stuff, but in this matter, it's a subjective opinion, just like "who's your favourite character". The "I think" there indicates that. :)

I think it's quite clear enough that Shirou didn't show any affection towards any heroine more than the other at the beginning of F/sn (cause it's a short step from "who is more favored by the main character" to "this heroine is better than the others". clearly Nasu, or any other VN writers, don't want/mean that). So trying to convince others that a heroine is more favoured by Shirou than the others is utterly rubbish. It's all up to fans interpretation.

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Unread post by allanh » February 11th, 2009, 1:04 am

Shourai wrote: So trying to convince others that a heroine is more favoured by Shirou than the others is utterly rubbish. It's all up to fans interpretation.
Exactly.

That's why in all my posts, I only post in the form of "if I were Shirou, etc", rather than "I think Shirou would".

After all, the only things that definitely happen were those words written by Nasu, the rest are just all pure speculations.
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Unread post by aldw » February 11th, 2009, 1:24 am

allanh wrote:
Shourai wrote: So trying to convince others that a heroine is more favoured by Shirou than the others is utterly rubbish. It's all up to fans interpretation.
Exactly.

That's why in all my posts, I only post in the form of "if I were Shirou, etc", rather than "I think Shirou would".

After all, the only things that definitely happen were those words written by Nasu, the rest are just all pure speculations.
Nasu also wrote about that in the final Tiger Dojo bonus at the end of F/SN when all the Tiger stamps were collected, about how things could go different ways. This also means that the not-seen Illya route is one possible outcome as an example, and the F/HA outcome is another one. Still, seeing how Archer reminisces most about Rin, Saber and Illya, I'd say they would be in the center of Shirou's attention more than Sakura.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 2:35 am

It's a subjective opinion, but it's the author opinion. He wrote the story.

And well, Heaven's Feel route is not about how Shirou fall in love with Sakura, is about how Shirou notices that he's in love with her since a while ago.

And Archer didn't count on this, as he comes from a single outcome, and even he says that he didn't have Shirou memories anymore. Even Nasu clearly makes some differences between them turning him into a different character, a possible outcome to Shirou.


Well, I wasn't trying to say that Shirou loves more X, I only said what Nasu always says about this. Even he didn't really preference Sakura over Saber and Rin, it's only that he wrote the story that way. That Shirou loves Sakura from even before the war it's something implied in the game. That didn't mean that this love is worse or better, as in all the routes, the main character relationship with the heroine is always clearly true love.
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Really, you're acting like a fanboy.

HF True End is happy because, even if they lost things, they gained better things as a reward. Even the final dojo says it, they will be HAPPY AS THEY CAN GET.

Yeah, it's a pity that Saber and Ilya can get it as well. But Nasu wanted it that way. He even thought about a HF Good End with Saber and Ilya alive, but probably he thought that was ridiculous or something. Blame him.
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misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 2:51 am

Kansho wrote:
Raven wrote:wall of text
Really, you're acting like a fanboy.

HF True End is happy because, even if they lost things, they gained better things as a reward. Even the final dojo says it, they will be HAPPY AS THEY CAN GET.

Yeah, it's a pity that Saber and Ilya can get it as well. But Nasu wanted it that way. He even thought about a HF Good End with Saber and Ilya alive, but probably he thought that was ridiculous or something. Blame him.
And "they" refer to? The survivors. I think Raven meant it's not about what's good; it's about what's fair. :P UBW Good End was fair to everyone. I'm not saying it's the best End (meh, I even find it ridiculous), but everyone gets as happy as possible.
Last edited by Shourai on February 11th, 2009, 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 2:52 am

Play Fate/hollow ataraxia.
Last edited by Kansho on February 11th, 2009, 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 2:54 am

Kansho wrote:Play Fate/hollow ataraxia.
I already have. I meant UBW Good End the only fair Ending in F/sn. Ataraxia is... not really counted. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 2:56 am

UBW's Good? Yeah, with Shirou still with chances to become a killer machine, Saber will dissapear after her stay in this world, Sakura as a Matou slave (yeah, Zouken is still alive), Ilya with her heart ripped...


REALLY fair to Ilya.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 2:59 am

Kansho wrote:REALLY fair to Ilya.
It doesn't make much difference in HF anyway. She still died. She lost the chance to live happily ever after.

And Zouken still cannot push his influence over Sakura in UBW; she could still maintain herself. Saber can allow herself a bit of happiness. As long as Rin watches over Shirou, he won't become a killing machine, and the two can live happily ever after.
Last edited by Shourai on February 11th, 2009, 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:04 am

Not "everyone" as you said. At least her death had a meaning in HF True, and probably her was happy saving her little brother, as she implied in the onsen dojo. On the other hand, HF is the only route when Rin and Sakura come back to be sisters again, and only in HF True we get a confirmation saying that they will be happy as they can get. Rest is speculation.

The real thing is that there isn't a "absolute fair" ending... Well, yeah, Higurashi's Matsuribayashi-hen.
Last edited by Kansho on February 11th, 2009, 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 3:11 am

Ok, thing is, even with all your love and obsession over HF and Sakura, you cannot force people to think the way you do. We are free to interpret things as we want, right? If we say "this Ending is the happiest and the fairest", then it is for us. If we say "this pair is the best", it's also our own opinion to make. Not even the author can tamper with it. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:13 am

Er not, I wasn't trying to make you change your mind. I even took a neutral stand saying "there isn't a real fair ending, all the routes shows true love"... I was defending what the game says us. Then, of course, you can think what you want.

The thing that you said, can perfectly apply to you as well then.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 3:17 am

Kansho wrote:The thing that you said, can perfectly apply to you as well then.
Sorry? Have I ever tried to force my own thoughts in this discussion? I merely explained that besides HF, there is an Ending in which the casts might have a happy ending, as good as they can get too. :P

The game merely said that "Shirou has hidden love for Sakura, big admiration for Rin, and huge crush for Saber". There's really no saying that he'll be gunning after Sakura first, or make Sakura his priority.
Last edited by Shourai on February 11th, 2009, 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Nerroth » February 11th, 2009, 3:19 am

Kansho wrote:UBW's Good?
Quite a useful ending for me!
Yeah, with Shirou still with chances to become a killer machine,
Well, given that he's been the most exposed to Archer's example, and has Rin around to keep him on a different path (a point Archer himself noted near his fade-out) the chances are good that he can turn out fairly well...

...but then, even if he sat at home and spent his life cooking, there's no guarantee that trouble wouldn't come looking for him.
Saber will dissapear after her stay in this world,
So long as Rin and Shirou can sustain her, she can spend a long life - a second life - in the modern era, and even if she didn't switch to a new magus contractor once Rin and Shirou pass on, she could still look back at a life well lived...

...a life she would otherwise not have had the chance to live.
Sakura as a Matou slave (yeah, Zouken is still alive),
But he can be stopped, and Sakura freed - and with no Grail to draw from, he would not be able to call forth Hassan the way he did in HF. Plus, in a setting with as many tricks and characters both known and yet-to-be-explored as the Nasuverse, it's possible that there is at least one combination of skill, luck, and dare I say it, fate, which can get the job done.
Ilya with her heart ripped...

REALLY fair to Ilya.
Sadly, no route is without its loss - but you do what you can.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:20 am

@Shourai: Well, you talked about UBW's Good being fair to everyone and etc... I only defended the game's point, as you defended yours.

And this is becoming a chat so it's better to stop it.

@Nerroth: I know that you like to speculate, even I like it, but I will say the same. It's speculation, not something that we will see. In HF True, at least we know that they will be happy, as the game says it.
Last edited by Kansho on February 11th, 2009, 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Shourai » February 11th, 2009, 3:24 am

Kansho wrote:@Shourai: Well, you talked about UBW's Good being fair to everyone and etc... I only defended the game's point, as you defended yours.

And this is becoming a chat so it's better to stop it.

@Nerroth: I know that you like to speculate, even I like it, but I will say the same. It's speculation, not something that we will see.
I wrote:The game merely said that "Shirou has hidden love for Sakura, big admiration for Rin, and huge crush for Saber". There's really no saying that he'll be gunning after Sakura first, or make Sakura his priority.
And this IS a chat. As long as we don't stray from the path of our discussion, which is F/sn heroines and endings, I see no problem. :P

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:26 am

This is a forum, I think that chat-like conversations like this are not permitted.

And yeah, even I said something like this. - > "That didn't mean that this love is worse or better, as in all the routes, the main character relationship with the heroine is always clearly true love."
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Nerroth » February 11th, 2009, 3:30 am

Kansho wrote:@Nerroth: I know that you like to speculate, even I like it, but I will say the same. It's speculation, not something that we will see. In HF True, at least we know that they will be happy, as the game says it.
But at what cost?

The affect of the War on the city is arguably worse in HF than in the other routes - and even though Sakura does have the way to happiness at the end of HF-True, she still has the legacy of what happened to her in that route compared to the others (being used as the Shadow, then possessed by Avenger etc).

UBW might not say for certain 'yes, everyone left alive by the War's end will be as happy as they can be'... but it doesn't have to.

It merely needs to leave the door open.

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Unread post by Kansho » February 11th, 2009, 3:31 am

Blame Nasu.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

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Unread post by Nerroth » February 11th, 2009, 3:35 am

Only if he doesn't agree to publishing AMoT...

(Just kidding!)


But seriously, Fate as a setting has outgrown the original VN - not least through Fate/Zero and the other forms of media and side materiel which have evolved in its wake - plus there is the rest of the Nasuverse which is even now expanding as a setting and franchise.


The last word on Fate need not have already been written, even if it's not shown in a future VN.

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