Thoughts on Heroines/Endings of FSN (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Inverted
Crack Desu!
Posts: 263
Joined: February 2nd, 2008, 7:25 pm

Unread post by Inverted » February 4th, 2009, 7:38 am

Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .

Kikuchi
Crack Desu!
Posts: 253
Joined: January 7th, 2009, 2:34 pm

Unread post by Kikuchi » February 4th, 2009, 7:50 am

Inverted wrote:
Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .
Moreover, it's only UBW becoming impossible to deploy for Shirou, besides the body being invaded by Archer's Circuits. Assuming you give GARm to Fate or UBW Shirou, they can do more hax with it than HF Shirou imo.
When will I get my 1337th post?

HeartCard
Addict
Posts: 89
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 1:08 am
Location: Isn't it Sad, Sakura?

Unread post by HeartCard » February 4th, 2009, 1:34 pm

Had it been Rin or Saber, I believe they would actively search for a solution to end Zouken's control.
Hmm..Let's see heya...Oh this not gonna turn out so good:

You're talking about a six-eight year old child. Saber has been proven through and through to emopity at every chance.
Saber would probably have white hair(since Sakura's hair was tainted to a light purple), and be empty on the inside utterly.
Rin? Already had the makings of a magus from early age. However, from such a young age, she would probably turn out worse than sakura.
Given her mental training wasn't complete, let alone emotional training. She gets despaired somewhat easily even in the current game timeline.

There is the "Jeolousy" factor that probably highly helped maintain Sakura.
Saber I don't imagine would be able to sustain herself off such a emotion. But then again, Saber is about 26 or 35 years old if I recall correct legend.
How she was as a small child could be highly different. She might have been very humble or very stubborn. Hard to say.
Rin though. Heh. Rin would be screwed. Rin is a Genius for Magecraft. "Everything comes easy to her" it's been said. Rin in Sakura's shoes, I do not imagine
Rin could sustain herself on what little Sakura would have over her in such a case. Not to mention her emotional training at that point in her life might very well
lower the ability to live off a single burning emotion.

If you talk about Strength of Character, I would say Rin is the weakest but would not be able to point to either Saber or Sakura as stronger than the other.
Each has their specific strengths. Sakura is perhaps the only of the three who could survive the matou life she was given.
But Saber is perhaps the strongest willed character currently.
So it depends on how you want to rank it.
Whoever had the most from the start, or whoever has the most currently.
Or perhaps whoever had the higher potential.

I don't mean to offend the Rin fans, however I would say she has the weakest character of the three. She bends more than any other heroine, goes against her trainings, among other things.
Of course, without her we would not have the Fate/Stay Night story because Shirou would be dead. So perhaps her Weakness of willpower was nessessary.

*Shrug*
Mah signature starts here.
Behold! Twist Ties and Eroges as far as the eye can see!
Fate/Twisted Night:
viewtopic.php?t=2838

aldw
Might just like this board
Posts: 51
Joined: December 12th, 2008, 10:54 pm

Unread post by aldw » February 4th, 2009, 6:44 pm

Having played through HF I ended up liking Rin even more than before surprisingly, hell the character developments there would have made an interesting RinxShirou pairing in itself worthy of a fic. :wink:

allanh
Crack Addic!
Posts: 155
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 9:46 am
Location: Avalon / Taiwan / Aus
Contact:

Unread post by allanh » February 4th, 2009, 10:52 pm

tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
http://Miyazaki.com - my Hayao Miyazaki fan site
http://CityHunter.com- my City Hunter fan site
Saber-chan, come back to me~~~~~

abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread post by abscess » February 4th, 2009, 11:29 pm

allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
That would be... certainly strange. It's not a bad idea at all, I imagine a game like that would indeed be well recieved in the VN community, but FSN, by the way it's done, can't even start wandering a bit into that path. Just think about it, HF is supposed to be Sakura's route, wouldn't it be very weird and probably even underwhelming to have a scene a bit like this:
Sakura: Oh! Shirou.... I've always loved you since.... 1.5 years...? More or less... Anyway, I love you! And more importantly, you've shown your love to me by caring for me all this time I've been in bed. Not only that, I went batshit insane and you stood by me and never left me alone. When you cry, I cry... When you are happy, I'm happy... So please... Please get rid of that woman already!!
Saber: Excuse me?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

Kikuchi
Crack Desu!
Posts: 253
Joined: January 7th, 2009, 2:34 pm

Unread post by Kikuchi » February 5th, 2009, 12:31 am

allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
Tsukihime...
When will I get my 1337th post?

Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » February 5th, 2009, 3:58 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Inverted wrote:
Rikh wrote:umm i doubt the Arms effects would be near as severe as they were in HF then... If its Fate Shiro, the arm will most likely have little to no effect on him, since its follows a very similar ideal to Archer. HF caused the arm to reject him and forbid him from accessing UBW and etc...
IMO it has nothing to do with ideals , its more to do with the fact that a spiritual body is connected to a human body .
Moreover, it's only UBW becoming impossible to deploy for Shirou, besides the body being invaded by Archer's Circuits. Assuming you give GARm to Fate or UBW Shirou, they can do more hax with it than HF Shirou imo.
well UBW shirou could do nearly all the same tracing GARcher could
With the arm activated, UBW shiro might be able to reinforce/trace at the exact same time for super powerful NP's

just the arm overall would be used to trace something that Shiro deems impossible over the course of his life, where he would need Archers and his own help to create. So they could make something super epic in UBW i think
abscess wrote:
allanh wrote:tbh, I would rather Type Moon not make each route having a specific heroine. I would rather that all 3 (4 if you include Illya) heroines are possiblities to be Shirou's love interest in each route, depending on his actions. That way, the fans of each girl can be satisfied....

Needless to say, I would love to make Saber-chan the main girl in all routes :oops:
That would be... certainly strange. It's not a bad idea at all, I imagine a game like that would indeed be well recieved in the VN community, but FSN, by the way it's done, can't even start wandering a bit into that path. Just think about it, HF is supposed to be Sakura's route, wouldn't it be very weird and probably even underwhelming to have a scene a bit like this:
Sakura: Oh! Shirou.... I've always loved you since.... 1.5 years...? More or less... Anyway, I love you! And more importantly, you've shown your love to me by caring for me all this time I've been in bed. Not only that, I went batshit insane and you stood by me and never left me alone. When you cry, I cry... When you are happy, I'm happy... So please... Please get rid of that woman already!!
Saber: Excuse me?
Tears to Tiara did that...
Although the story was nice, NOTHING changed except for the fact you could choose a different heroine near the end... Which almost felt pointless (although each heroine had an awesome background explanation in the game)... overall character individual routes are better than various routes with multiple characters, i think they have more of an impact. Only my opinion though

Kansho
DESU DESU!
Posts: 740
Joined: May 9th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Unread post by Kansho » February 10th, 2009, 7:50 pm

My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden
Contact:

Unread post by Kid-Wolf » February 10th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.
For some reason I have to agree with the Shirou and Sakura pairing over anything else. The only exception would be a Shirou and Illya pairng. I mean she did have her route taken away from her before they were going to plan on doing that.
- Finding my way through this garden is rather unbearable, but if it is to keep the one I adore company I will endure it for her sake, and her sake alone.

Inverted
Crack Desu!
Posts: 263
Joined: February 2nd, 2008, 7:25 pm

Unread post by Inverted » February 10th, 2009, 8:12 pm

Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu


Back to the grave.
Yeah in the sense that if no one was around , i.e.,Shirou didn't summon Saber or strike a friendship with Rin due to HGW ,Sakura would have got him.With the events unfolding as they did the chances were even.It could have gone any direction depending upon the situation. Just cruelly Illya got left out.

Kansho
DESU DESU!
Posts: 740
Joined: May 9th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Unread post by Kansho » February 10th, 2009, 8:20 pm

Well, theorically, the whole HF storyline as a climax goes for that. Sakura is a plot device regarding Shirou's behavior.

That's why she didn't even shows in Fate/UBW plot. "Sakura in danger" is like the "not injured Archer", a plot device.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Nerroth
Crack Desu!
Posts: 285
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:35 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Unread post by Nerroth » February 10th, 2009, 8:24 pm

I really don't care for the idea that it's all down to him - or the assumption that his choice is the defining factor in how the rest of the core characters' lives will pan out from here until they're old and grey.

Or that the way people feel about each other in one point of their lives necessarily carried through into the other 50-70 or so ears they may or may not have to live out.


Life doesn't work that way.

Raven
Crack Desu!
Posts: 427
Joined: June 16th, 2007, 12:29 am

Unread post by Raven » February 10th, 2009, 8:27 pm

Kansho wrote:My comeback. Storm is coming...

それはそれとして、士郎とセイバーのペアで投票する方も多かったようですが、組み合わせでは士郎と桜が一番だった気がします。

Even if seems that many people voted pairing Shirou with Saber, I think that for Shirou, Sakura comes first.

- Kinoko Nasu

Bah. another reason for me to hate Sakura. :evil:

Well, with story aside I think if only Saber could stayed, her true ending would be the "perfect" ending so to speak because it couples with Illya, so it gives me a more heartwarming sense in term of a family given the relationship between Saber and Illya. Also other characters is left intact.

You might want to argue the true epilogue in HF is more heart warming, but for some reason it feels a bit superficture to me (is that a word?) and there are "too many" missing in that happy picture.

I'm a sucker for happy ending, that's all there is to it :P

allanh
Crack Addic!
Posts: 155
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 9:46 am
Location: Avalon / Taiwan / Aus
Contact:

Unread post by allanh » February 10th, 2009, 9:41 pm

agree with Raven.

Not only are Saber and Illya missing from the 'Good Ending' in Heavens Feel scenario, Shirou was also turned into a puppet.

The "Good Ending" of UBW is the closest thing to a happy ending, but Illya is still missing and Saber isn't Shirou's primary love interest in that picture. :(
http://Miyazaki.com - my Hayao Miyazaki fan site
http://CityHunter.com- my City Hunter fan site
Saber-chan, come back to me~~~~~

Kansho
DESU DESU!
Posts: 740
Joined: May 9th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Unread post by Kansho » February 10th, 2009, 9:48 pm

The "turned into a puppet" = stupid argument. Tohko's puppets are... bodies. He got a new body, and even Rin spends some time explaining why Shirou IS EXACTLY the same old Emiya Shirou. I don't understand why people can get this.

UBW's Good Ending it's a harem ending without sense. Really.

The whole thing about HF True being happy is because it's the climax of the game, and the characters can get as happy they want, as the final dojo says. Yes, it's a pity for Saber and Ilya, but that's all. Well, Saber it's the same as dead at the HF5 time, and Ilya can't be saved (she will die in a year).
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Nerroth
Crack Desu!
Posts: 285
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:35 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Unread post by Nerroth » February 10th, 2009, 9:54 pm

There is no reason to assume that after UBW-Good, there is no scope for further character development, or that the part about Saber staying around can be anything more than an optional extra.

There's a lot that Saber can make out of a second life... and she deserves the chance more than many.

Kansho
DESU DESU!
Posts: 740
Joined: May 9th, 2007, 12:16 pm

Unread post by Kansho » February 10th, 2009, 9:56 pm

Yeah, that's true. But we will never get to see any of that.
見せかけの自分はそっと捨ててただありのままで
misekake no jibun ha sotto sutete tada ari no mama de -
Throw away the "fake me" quietly and just be myself.

Nerroth
Crack Desu!
Posts: 285
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:35 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Unread post by Nerroth » February 10th, 2009, 10:00 pm

Time will tell.

Raven
Crack Desu!
Posts: 427
Joined: June 16th, 2007, 12:29 am

Unread post by Raven » February 11th, 2009, 12:29 am

Kansho wrote: The whole thing about HF True being happy is because it's the climax of the game, and the characters can get as happy they want, as the final dojo says. Yes, it's a pity for Saber and Ilya, but that's all. Well, Saber it's the same as dead at the HF5 time, and Ilya can't be saved (she will die in a year).
That's all? THAT'S ALL? THAT'S ALL YOU SAY? :shock:

It's like saying "our town just got hit by the biggest typhoon in history, but that's all". :?

Like I said, I prefer Saber's ending independently of the story element, it's more in a character attachment sense. Personally I never like Sakura, for some reason I already dislike her before I read UBW and HF, and I don't find my feeling improved after HF at all.


Illya: see, I don't mind she disappearing in UBW because she didn't really make any attachment. However both Fate and HF she has grown to become a part of the Emiya family, it just doesn't feel right not to see here there at the end.

Sakura: no matter what they can do, Sakura's crime can not be forgotten or forgiven, she can try to overcome it but it's a shadow that will forever be there. I seriously doubt anyone can live happily with such a heavy conscience even if your have iron nerves.

Saber: no matter how strong mentality Shirou can have and how he justifies it, the fact remain that he had to kill her.

Sure we have Raider, but she's more like a bonus that doesn't really fit into anywhere, she's nice to have around but she does not hold the same impact and meaning that Saber and Illya could.


So no matter how I paint it, HF is a picture filled with lost and regret, that's why I meant the HF's happy ending is just too superfictial , not because Shirou's physical state, but more like the possibility of such a life. Come to think of it it could be the reason I dislike Sakura, because HF is technically a "destroy everything for Sakura's sake" story, I know it's the theme, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Last edited by Raven on February 11th, 2009, 1:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

Post Reply