A question on Saber's history and character (SPOILERS!)

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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 6:22 am

akasha as of akashic records?
well..learn a new thing everyday :lol:
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Unread postby Candide666 » February 28th, 2009, 12:29 am

wow .. akashic record.. now that's new to me too!

and btw, I'm impressed at the thorough discussion you guys got here. I just finished the game and cant remember such things as Alaya or Gaia mentioned in FSN. :?

About Saber's death, in the last poem of FATE,

.....after dozing in the warmth of a dream, a new day will begin...

I think it's strongly implied that Saber's soul will reincarnate as normal human (as it should be). If the Holy Grail is no more, then there's no such thing as heroic spirits being stored and summoned throughout time? Come to think of it such existence is quite disturbing. No wonder why Archer become such a bitter person.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 28th, 2009, 12:33 am

Candide666 wrote:About Saber's death, in the last poem of FATE,

.....after dozing in the warmth of a dream, a new day will begin...

I think it's strongly implied that Saber's soul will reincarnate as normal human (as it should be). If the Holy Grail is no more, then there's no such thing as heroic spirits being stored and summoned throughout time? Come to think of it such existence is quite disturbing. No wonder why Archer become such a bitter person.
Heroic Spirit record will still exist, even if they are not to be summoned anymore. And thus Saber will be taken from the cycle of reincarnation. Yes, isn't it sad, Saber?

But as Realta Nua implied, she can actually reincarnate given some miracle happens.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 1st, 2009, 2:49 pm

Reincarnation usually means you are wiped to a blank slate in Nasuverse. Even in Roa's case, the original personality is only somewhat recognizable and exerts influence merely as a "drive".
In the far side routes, you will see, the influence is even weaker, to the extend that the original Shiki is the dominant one.


I think Nasu wants to please his fans, but also does not want to mess up the canon, so he made the compromise in the epilogue of Realta Nua: reuniting Shirou and Sabre at an unspecified time, at an unspecified location, through an unspecified method (miracle, but again, even miracles have explanations, see True Magic).
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Unread postby Kikuchi » March 1st, 2009, 3:33 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Reincarnation usually means you are wiped to a blank slate in Nasuverse. Even in Roa's case, the original personality is only somewhat recognizable and exerts influence merely as a "drive".
In the far side routes, you will see, the influence is even weaker, to the extend that the original Shiki is the dominant one.


I think Nasu wants to please his fans, but also does not want to mess up the canon, so he made the compromise in the epilogue of Realta Nua: reuniting Shirou and Sabre at an unspecified time, at an unspecified location, through an unspecified method (miracle, but again, even miracles have explanations, see True Magic)
So basically, I think that is not reincarnation but something in the line of "rebirth" or "brining up the dead". But then again, there is really no Magic, even the True ones, that was confirmed able to perform such feats, right?

Also, True Magics are miracles, but not all miracles are Magic. Different things. :P
When will I get my 1337th post?
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 1st, 2009, 4:29 pm

Well, Kikuchi, if you are willing to go that way, then the Third can achieve something close to the epilogue. You can't really bring up the dead, since souls are recycled and wiped. The whole point of the Third is to prevent a disembodied soul from returning to Akasha and become recycled. However, since Sabre is a hero, things are different.

Aspects of the Third and Einzbern sorcery can allow you to extract spirits from Akasha and Alaya. Essentially what I am saying is to summon Sabre as a familiar. Since Sabre had memories of Shirou before she died, the record of Sabre in Akasha/Alaya should still retain that.

Neither the reincarnation or this explanation has the romance carried by "one waits without wavering, the other pursues ceaselessly". Unless said pursuit is a metaphor for Shirou taking over House Einzbern and forging forward with the full revival of the Third.
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Unread postby Inverted » March 2nd, 2009, 10:38 am

WingZero's has put up an overhauled translation of LE provides somewhat more clarity.. It's in Beast lair.

Miracle is simplest explanation .
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » March 2nd, 2009, 12:28 pm

Candide666 wrote:wow .. akashic record.. now that's new to me too!


...

*Cybuster goes into Cybird form and rides the burning phoenix*

Masaki: AKASHIC BUSTER!!!~

...
.....

Sorry.. Alittle Cybuster fanboy-ism thing going on there...

..
...

So... Whenever you guy's are done discussing...

I would humbly ask for a noob-friendly defination of the Akashic Records.. or alaya.. or just the meaning of this word 'Akashic'...
Its strange.. Being that its one of my favourite SRW move/mech, and still i have very very vague understanding about it...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 2nd, 2009, 7:02 pm

Here is my version of the interpretation, which is how I understand the jargons. Here it goes:

Akasha is essentially the record of everything: past, present, or future. So basically everything run from the Akashic Records without deviation, ever. So, even if let's say a squirrel dies from being run over by a car by "accident" in the next second, this "accident" is no real accident, it has been in the Akashic Record since the beginning of time. Akasha is not connected to space time, so think of it as running in the background of the universe. When a soul is no longer bound to this world, it returns to Akasha, wiped clean, and reincarnates again as someone else. (Remember, souls are indestructible in Nasuverse. They can only be wiped clean, but not destroyed. Shiki's eyes only cause the souls to return to Akasha early, but not really killing them.) Souls of heroes are taken out of this cycle of reincarnation and stored in another part of the Akasha known as the Throne of Heroes. All magi seek the Akasha, because it can make them all-knowing and maybe all-powerful. So what is the big deal? Think about it, Shiki merely understands a small concept of Akasha -- death, and that allows him to wreck havoc and kill DAA's.

Now onto Alaya etc.
To put it in a concise manner: The World = Gaia + Alaya

Gaia is the will of the Planet Earth to survive, while Alaya is the will of Mankind to survive (can be at the expense of the Planet Earth). Each aspect the World has its counter force to execute its will. Gaia originally doesn't have anything, so it sought out Type-Moon for help, and then we know what happened after. True Ancestors are supposed to be the will of Gaia, shepherd of Mankind.

The Counter Guardians represent the will of Alaya, their job is to save Mankind. However, saving Mankind can also mean killing a lot of them in order to save them.

In general the two aspects of the World balance out, and everything is in harmony. They can also work in synchrony as well. Let's say Gilgamesh feels the burning urge of Enuma Elish-ing the Planet Earth, he will taste the wrath of the counter force from both Gaia and Alaya.
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