I reject Fate (SPOILAHZ)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby negum » February 24th, 2009, 6:36 pm

That's your opinion. Even so, he is still an ass. :P
And aren't we getting dangerously close to hf-spoilers? I don't think the spoiler warning in the topic title covers these. :wink:
Maybe you should edit your post Mkilbride.
Internet-Rule 20: "Nothing is to be taken (too) seriously." <-- So true. :mrgreen:
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 25th, 2009, 7:59 pm

Sakura only becomes sadistic to Shirou and wants him all to herself alive or dead near the end of HF. I find it sort of out of character and attribute it more towards the influence of Angra Mainyu.
In Hollow Ataraxia, it was explained that Angra Mainyu interprets/twists love into the desire to hurt the target of affection. So the more Avenger loves someone, the more he wants to hurt him/her.
This interpretation translates well to Sakura's psychology and behaviour.
Plus, I bet even a normal person will become somewhat psychotic if torture and pain are all they know of.

So much Sakura-hate, I just don't understand...
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 25th, 2009, 9:57 pm

negum wrote:That's your opinion. Even so, he is still an ass. :P
And aren't we getting dangerously close to hf-spoilers? I don't think the spoiler warning in the topic title covers these. :wink:
Maybe you should edit your post Mkilbride.

You probably are, but the only reason you guys would keep this HF spoiler free is out of courtesy that I haven't played it yet (though I FINALLY actually entered the HF arc. *and there's tons of Spelling mistakes and grammar errors so far*
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » February 26th, 2009, 4:04 am

Mkilbride wrote:I believe he was at his best in Heavens Feel. Sakura deserved whatever she got, just for being a horrible, horrible person.


Uhhhh....huh.
So a five year old who was taken from her beloved mother and sister, tortured for 11 years and then raped by a loser who couldn't handle he wasn't his family's prized child, is a horrible person even when her actions were twisted by a powerful magical influence?

Please step on a tack, sir.



@Keeper of Gil's Vault:

I don't understand it either.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 26th, 2009, 9:51 am

@ Altima and Keeper: Sakura is a simple type of character. Either you love her, or you hate her to death. That's why.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 26th, 2009, 10:40 am

I like Sakura, I think she could rather cute at times. But I should keep my mouth shut until I finish HF.
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 26th, 2009, 6:45 pm

Yeah, atm I'm liking Sakura.

I kinda prefer the flat out romances. And it's obvious she cares deeply for Shirou.

I just hope the H scenes feel as "real" as Saber's second, and not as scripted as Rin's or Saber's first.
AND DON'T TELL ME IF THEY ARE OR AREN'T :evil:
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 26th, 2009, 7:06 pm

Basically, her H-Scenes are what the American imagination has made Asian woman out to be. It's kinda annoying because of that. Also, Rin's H-Scene was very real man, I have no idea what yer about. The one in UBW was very real, cause alot of woman'll react like that their first time man. Saber, based on her personality, had no realistic H-Scenes though.

She doesn't care for Shirou, imo. I believe she cares for his kindness and not the person he is. In that respect, she doesn't love him, just his kindness, which is part of a personality, but not a whole. You can even see her going on the "I'll keel you" train, if he's nice to other people in front of her. Not the Tsundere kind of keel, but the real kill type, as in she will kill the person AND him. Not jokingly either. She's a bitch, basically, she's spoiled.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 26th, 2009, 9:01 pm

Sakura did care about Shirou. She cared about him so much that she was willing to kill him rather than yielding him to anyone else (as in love you in a psychopathic way). Shirou was essentially the only ray of light in Sakura's life. Of course she would be driven into a frenzy if someone even revealed a hint of attempt to take Shirou away from her. Also, you need to take into account the corruption and loss of personality caused by being the embodiment of the Lesser Grail.

Given her experience, Sakura was far from healthy psychologically, so you can't gauge her with the standard you used to gauge regular "doormat" stock characters.

As for the H scenes, they are just just sort of there, like that random toothbrush they gave you as a "bonus" when you buy a jug of laundry detergent. It came with it free, so use it and don't complain.
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Unread postby aldw » February 27th, 2009, 3:08 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Sakura did care about Shirou. She cared about him so much that she was willing to kill him rather than yielding him to anyone else (as in love you in a psychopathic way). Shirou was essentially the only ray of light in Sakura's life. Of course she would be driven into a frenzy if someone even revealed a hint of attempt to take Shirou away from her. Also, you need to take into account the corruption and loss of personality caused by being the embodiment of the Lesser Grail.

Given her experience, Sakura was far from healthy psychologically, so you can't gauge her with the standard you used to gauge regular "doormat" stock characters.

As for the H scenes, they are just just sort of there, like that random toothbrush they gave you as a "bonus" when you buy a jug of laundry detergent. It came with it free, so use it and don't complain.


That's another reason why I can't go along with a Sakura/Shirou pairing, putting two broken people together is a recipe for disaster both in real life and in fiction, unfortunately, even though I don't dislike Sakura.
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Unread postby TheRedArcher » February 27th, 2009, 3:16 am

aldw wrote:That's another reason why I can't go along with a Sakura/Shirou pairing, putting two broken people together is a recipe for disaster both in real life and in fiction, unfortunately, even though I don't dislike Sakura.


Really? Then can you give me several examples from literary canon to convince me? In fiction, I can see it as two halves that make a complete whole. In real life... can't say much about that.
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Unread postby aldw » February 27th, 2009, 3:40 am

TheRedArcher wrote:
aldw wrote:That's another reason why I can't go along with a Sakura/Shirou pairing, putting two broken people together is a recipe for disaster both in real life and in fiction, unfortunately, even though I don't dislike Sakura.


Really? Then can you give me several examples from literary canon to convince me? In fiction, I can see it as two halves that make a complete whole. In real life... can't say much about that.


Anime has plenty of examples, Evangelion being one of the more notorious examples, but if you want a literary example there's novels by Dostoyevsky for one. Ivan Turgenev's family background is a real life example of this point.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 27th, 2009, 4:19 am

IT's also common sense. Broken people do not work together. They're both missing something and it's often the same something. At least one of the people in the couple needs to have what the other is missing. When Shirou is with Rin, he gains someone who can make him not act retarded basically. When he has Saber, she matures him and it allows him to grow up, even when she's gone. Sakura leaves him throwing away his ideal, true, but nothing to counter-act how retarded he is. He needs someone to either mature, or ground him. Sakura is submissive and will do neither of these things.(Unless Rin stays around like the Aunt does in some cases?:P), and helps out, if Rin stays and helps Sakura with Shirou, then it'd be possible...but due to Sakura's immense jealousy of Rin, despite the fact that she knows Shirou is hers(Sakura's), it would probably lead to some fights. ;P

Overall, in the real world, Sakura and him couldn't work out. They don't have the maturity to co-exist. :P
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Unread postby JLA » February 27th, 2009, 4:33 am

Mkilbride wrote: When Shirou is with Rin, he gains someone who can make him not act retarded basically.

Hrmmm... What does Rin get out of this? I'm thinking maybe someone who can
put the brakes on like she mentions in UBW or someone who can point out when she is about to mess up during a crucial moment?

What do you all think?
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Unread postby sabata2 » February 27th, 2009, 5:18 am

What I meant by "real" wasn't how close to reality it was, I meant how emotionally involved you could tell the two were.

Even going ALL RIN on UBW the only place I started seeing any attraction from Rin was when Lancer offered to join.

With Saber you could tell that Saber loved him, but she was trying to act strong and not show it.
With Rin, I saw too much hiding behind the "logical" reason for it.

With Sakura, I can already tell she loves him. I'm just hoping it doesn't end up being "Do me to save me!" or "RAWR I'mma raep u!"
But I also heard that there's the most doing in her route, so I kinda expect those atleast once. But I'm hoping that there's also atleast one scene that has the following:
ACTUAL LOVE MAKING and not just sex for the sake of sex.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » February 27th, 2009, 5:20 am

There is none of that for Sakura in the entire route. No love making, only for the sake of saving. That's why I hate it too. :P Shirou can pretty it up, but he didn't have the balls to start it, poor Sakura had to come over and say she'd basically die if not .:P (And even though, he hesitated, not wanting to unless he HAD to)
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 27th, 2009, 6:40 am

Mkilbride wrote:There is none of that for Sakura in the entire route. No love making, only for the sake of saving. That's why I hate it too. :P Shirou can pretty it up, but he didn't have the balls to start it, poor Sakura had to come over and say she'd basically die if not .:P (And even though, he hesitated, not wanting to unless he HAD to)

and that's why shirou is called retarded at times...he thinks too much on what he shouldnt, and jumps straight on when he should think first..he juz loves messing peoples mind up by doing that..
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » February 27th, 2009, 4:02 pm

Mkilbride wrote:There is none of that for Sakura in the entire route. No love making, only for the sake of saving. That's why I hate it too. :P Shirou can pretty it up, but he didn't have the balls to start it, poor Sakura had to come over and say she'd basically die if not .:P (And even though, he hesitated, not wanting to unless he HAD to)


The first time maybe, and even then he was like, "Well damn, I should have realized long ago that I liked her and wanted her to be mine. If you look at other conversations he basically didn't jump on her before out of respect, not because he was just retarded. The second time, he was like, "Man look at Sakura, she wants it so badly, but doesn't want to demand it." He then held her and asked her for it himself. Hell I'm surprised he even had the energy from all the crap that was happening. And it was not just for 1 hour, it was several hours.

So I can't see where you're saying he didn't have the balls to initiate...
And by the end of HF True they were going at it all over the place. even taking care of the Tohsaka mansion, they were having sex in the yard, upstairs, pretty much wherever they could. Even if you'll point out that she needs to periodically let out excess maryoku, they seem to be going at it too much for that.
No love-making...*shakes head* All I see here are people seeing things how they want to see them.
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Unread postby sabata2 » March 1st, 2009, 10:22 am

Mkilbride wrote:IT's also common sense. Broken people do not work together. They're both missing something and it's often the same something. At least one of the people in the couple needs to have what the other is missing.

Broken people search each other out.
Think emo. "No one understands me except for other emos!"
They look for people who can empathize or even sympathize.

Anyways, I'm playing HF. aaand I'm already screwed.
I didn't go shopping soooo I get a Dojo.

Fun. I wonder if that "end" will be any good.


Also, I'd have to say, of the 3 heroines, I'm liking Sakura the most. Along with her route.
Her route feels a lot more "interactive" in the fact that a choice you made a "day" ago, means you're screwed.
With every other route else there's only 1 of those.
Fate's Solo
and UBW's Coward.

I think I like this route the most so far, because it's more "guy just trying to survive" than it is "guy trying to be superhero".
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » March 1st, 2009, 2:57 pm

sabata2 wrote:I think I like this route the most so far, because it's more "guy just trying to survive" than it is "guy trying to be superhero".


This route is like the flip side of Fate, and I have to say, Shirou is making a lot of more sense when he is not bound by Kiritsugu's ideal. I guess there is a reason that Kiritsugu gave up his ideal the first place.
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