The vault [spoilers]

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The vault [spoilers]

Unread postby Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 3:38 pm

Do the weapons in gil's vault have the same effect as the one's wielded by other heroic spirits? For example does the Gae Bolg in his vault have same effect as Lancer's?
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Unread postby that one guy » January 14th, 2009, 4:53 pm

Yes and no. If weilded by Lancer it would, but Gil can't draw out the full potential, so it's just a really good lance.
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Unread postby Ferozban » January 14th, 2009, 7:19 pm

yes gil is just able to shoot the weapon since he is an archer, but he cannot use the noble phantasm.
or else saber would hardly be able to avoid the numberous wepons shot at her at the endfight of fate
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Unread postby Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 11:09 pm

or he rather not waste the mana/time/energy/risk or whatever to use it

he used some fairly low cost np abilities during the fate route several times
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 15th, 2009, 4:28 am

Gil does not have THE Gae Bolg. Gae Bolg belongs to Lancer and Lancer only. The one he has is the predecessor/prototype which later became Gae Bolg. The lance, like many of the Noble Phantasms in his vault, does not have a name or associated legend. This means that they are essentially good weapons/artifacts, but not really full fledged Noble Phantasms. So you ask why are they so powerful as to be able to slay Servants? Again this goes back to the accumulation of age. Even a plain sword may gain power and become extraordinary through aging. The weapons in GoB are already very fine weapons in their time, and through the accumulation of age, they become very powerful.

So it is not that Gil does not know how to unleash the power of the weapons in his vault, they simply have none. Ea apparently also doesn't have a true name. Gil just named it and claimed it as his own, and it seemed that it worked out.

Spoiler tag people.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » January 15th, 2009, 5:09 am

Isn't it also true that...
If a Servant owns a NP (let's call it B) and Gil owns the prototype (let's call it A), then the strength of the attack of Hero Gilgamesh's weapon A is actually the sum of A and B?
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Unread postby spathi » January 15th, 2009, 5:10 am

I think he was referring to the inborn effects of the weapon like the ice sword shooting..... ice
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 15th, 2009, 5:58 am

AlinSabel wrote:Isn't it also true that...
If a Servant owns a NP (let's call it B) and Gil owns the prototype (let's call it A), then the strength of the attack of Hero Gilgamesh's weapon A is actually the sum of A and B?

No, the attack of A will still be A. For example, Gilgamesh's spear may have completely different rank and damage compared to Gae Bolg, even though Gae Bolg is derived from Gilgamesh's spear.
The rule here is that, "the father always defeats the son, no questions asked". So, if we were to clash Gilgamesh's spear and Gae Bolg, the one Gilgamesh has will win.

What you need to realize is that, a Noble Phantasm is the ATTACK, not the weapon. So Gae Bolg is only Gae Bolg when Lancer shouts its name and summons its heart-piercing curse. What I am trying to illustrate here is that, Noble Phantasm is the recreation of the true power of a hero when she/he was alive. The weapons they are holding, be it a sword, a lance, a dagger, are just good artifacts. Excalibur is not the REAL Excalibur until Sabre fires the beam shot.

Now you understand this, you will see that the Noble Phantasm draws much from the hero, that is why the game states that the Noble Phantasm defines the hero. Gilgamesh's weapon have no legend, regardless of what they later became.

So Gilgamesh's spear is just a good weapon. Lancer's Spear of Impaling Barbed Death is a bona fide Noble Phantasm.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 15th, 2009, 6:40 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:Isn't it also true that...
If a Servant owns a NP (let's call it B) and Gil owns the prototype (let's call it A), then the strength of the attack of Hero Gilgamesh's weapon A is actually the sum of A and B?

No, the attack of A will still be A. For example, Gilgamesh's spear may have completely different rank and damage compared to Gae Bolg, even though Gae Bolg is derived from Gilgamesh's spear.
The rule here is that, "the father always defeats the son, no questions asked". So, if we were to clash Gilgamesh's spear and Gae Bolg, the one Gilgamesh has will win.

What you need to realize is that, a Noble Phantasm is the ATTACK, not the weapon. So Gae Bolg is only Gae Bolg when Lancer shouts its name and summons its heart-piercing curse. What I am trying to illustrate here is that, Noble Phantasm is the recreation of the true power of a hero when she/he was alive. The weapons they are holding, be it a sword, a lance, a dagger, are just good artifacts. Excalibur is not the REAL Excalibur until Sabre fires the beam shot.

Now you understand this, you will see that the Noble Phantasm draws much from the hero, that is why the game states that the Noble Phantasm defines the hero. Gilgamesh's weapon have no legend, regardless of what they later became.

So Gilgamesh's spear is just a good weapon. Lancer's Spear of Impaling Barbed Death is a bona fide Noble Phantasm.


I thought so. Just wanted to clarify.
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Unread postby Amhran » January 16th, 2009, 8:07 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:Isn't it also true that...
If a Servant owns a NP (let's call it B) and Gil owns the prototype (let's call it A), then the strength of the attack of Hero Gilgamesh's weapon A is actually the sum of A and B?

What you need to realize is that, a Noble Phantasm is the ATTACK, not the weapon. So Gae Bolg is only Gae Bolg when Lancer shouts its name and summons its heart-piercing curse. What I am trying to illustrate here is that, Noble Phantasm is the recreation of the true power of a hero when she/he was alive. The weapons they are holding, be it a sword, a lance, a dagger, are just good artifacts. Excalibur is not the REAL Excalibur until Sabre fires the beam shot.



Pretty sure that is about half correct. It can be the attack or the weapon or any kind of special ability (eg. God hand is neither an attack or a weapon). The Japanese for "noble phantasm" is 宝具 (hougu) which seems to me to be something like treasured means/possession/tool. Its a fairly ambiguous term, but I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be that way.
I would have to say that each weapon that Gilgamesh still does have the same power as the ones wielded by other servants, but since he is only an owner not a wielder he can only pretty much pew pew people with them.
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Unread postby nobaka » January 16th, 2009, 9:15 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
AlinSabel wrote:Isn't it also true that...
If a Servant owns a NP (let's call it B) and Gil owns the prototype (let's call it A), then the strength of the attack of Hero Gilgamesh's weapon A is actually the sum of A and B?

No, the attack of A will still be A. For example, Gilgamesh's spear may have completely different rank and damage compared to Gae Bolg, even though Gae Bolg is derived from Gilgamesh's spear.
The rule here is that, "the father always defeats the son, no questions asked". So, if we were to clash Gilgamesh's spear and Gae Bolg, the one Gilgamesh has will win.

What you need to realize is that, a Noble Phantasm is the ATTACK, not the weapon. So Gae Bolg is only Gae Bolg when Lancer shouts its name and summons its heart-piercing curse. What I am trying to illustrate here is that, Noble Phantasm is the recreation of the true power of a hero when she/he was alive. The weapons they are holding, be it a sword, a lance, a dagger, are just good artifacts. Excalibur is not the REAL Excalibur until Sabre fires the beam shot.

Now you understand this, you will see that the Noble Phantasm draws much from the hero, that is why the game states that the Noble Phantasm defines the hero. Gilgamesh's weapon have no legend, regardless of what they later became.

So Gilgamesh's spear is just a good weapon. Lancer's Spear of Impaling Barbed Death is a bona fide Noble Phantasm.


My understanding was that the Gae Bolg in Gilgamesh's vault is the same weapon as Lancer's Gae Bolg, only before it was made legendary by Cu Chulain. It has the same abilities and powers, but Gilgamesh is just an 'owner' rather than a 'user'. It's still Gae Bolg, but all Gilgamesh can do with it is use it as a spear. Or, well, mortar round. Whichever.


I don't know the actual legend, and I'm too lazy to check, but it might also be that the Gae Bolg was enchanted when it was given to him, not just when it was made.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » January 17th, 2009, 5:52 am

Gilgamesh owns the originals of almost all NPs in existence. For example, Caliburn is a derivative of Gram which is a derivative of Merodach. In the case of Gae Bolg, Gilgamesh owns Gungnir, but it is not stated if he owns Brionac (which is apparently the 'other' "parent" of Gae Bolg).
As such, Gungnir does not possess all the abilities Gae Bolg does, due to the fact that Gae Bolg has powers from the Brionac line.


Perhaps I phrased my earlier assertion wrong - the 'mystery' of the original is what is summed. However, I cannot find where I saw this. :(
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Unread postby Message » January 17th, 2009, 8:17 am

nobaka wrote:My understanding was that the Gae Bolg in Gilgamesh's vault is the same weapon as Lancer's Gae Bolg, only before it was made legendary by Cu Chulain. It has the same abilities and powers, but Gilgamesh is just an 'owner' rather than a 'user'. It's still Gae Bolg, but all Gilgamesh can do with it is use it as a spear. Or, well, mortar round. Whichever.

I don't know the actual legend, and I'm too lazy to check, but it might also be that the Gae Bolg was enchanted when it was given to him, not just when it was made.

Sod this, I'm adding a spoiler tag to this thread. nobaka, be more careful in the future.
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Unread postby solopy567 » January 17th, 2009, 12:54 pm

As Shiro stated in UBW in his fight against Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh is an "owner" but not a "user", which is the reason he cannot draw out the full power of the NPs around him
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Unread postby Rikh » January 17th, 2009, 8:36 pm

solopy567 wrote:
As Shiro stated in UBW in his fight against Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh is an "owner" but not a "user", which is the reason he cannot draw out the full power of the NPs around him

Yah... but its implied in terms of skill, not activation. Gilgamesh can activate his weapons in the vault if he wanted. This is why he can use weapons such as his dimension/altering/scythe thing accurately
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