Some inconsistencies in heavens feel (spoiler)

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Unread postby negum » December 29th, 2008, 8:19 pm

Kenzu wrote:
negum wrote:1) I completely agree on that. Zouken practically comes out of nowhere. That's one of the reasons why HF feels kinda out of place for me compared to the other two routes.


Zouken is mentioned in every route, but he only appears in the last.
In Fate Kotomine mentions the "old Makiri" when Shirou comes to talk about Gilgamesh.
In UBW Taiga told Shirou that Sakura's grandfather called her back home.

You're right. I guess he doesn't come completely out of nowhere.
But that brings up a new question. Why does he call back Sakura home in UBW?
You would think it's an advantage to have someone within the enemies ranks.
Maybe a chance would arise if he kept an eye on them.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 29th, 2008, 10:27 pm

negum wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
negum wrote:1) I completely agree on that. Zouken practically comes out of nowhere. That's one of the reasons why HF feels kinda out of place for me compared to the other two routes.


Zouken is mentioned in every route, but he only appears in the last.
In Fate Kotomine mentions the "old Makiri" when Shirou comes to talk about Gilgamesh.
In UBW Taiga told Shirou that Sakura's grandfather called her back home.

You're right. I guess he doesn't come completely out of nowhere.
But that brings up a new question. Why does he call back Sakura home in UBW?
You would think it's an advantage to have someone within the enemies ranks.
Maybe a chance would arise if he kept an eye on them.


maybe UBW was about Rin or something

oh wait... It is ;)

dont be too nitty picky with the small details, that removes the fun from the game
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Unread postby Kenzu » December 29th, 2008, 11:43 pm

Kansho wrote:- I think that the reason because Sakura "crack" in HF it's that Zouken was smarter here and used her feelings for Rin and Shirou as a weapon. That's all.


That's the thing. Zouken's meeting with Shirou probably had no influence on his thoughts on how to move Sakura. He didn't mention him after all. If he were to talk to Sakura in other routes, it would be the same dialogue. So why did it only happen in Heaven's Feel? There is no logical explanation here. There is no reason that Zouken wouldn't have that conversation with her. It could be said that the active existence of Zouken negates the other two routes. Perhaps that's the reason many call Heaven's Feel the true route with true ending.
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Unread postby Kansho » December 30th, 2008, 12:21 am

Kenzu wrote:That's the thing. Zouken's meeting with Shirou probably had no influence on his thoughts on how to move Sakura. He didn't mention him after all. If he were to talk to Sakura in other routes, it would be the same dialogue. So why did it only happen in Heaven's Feel? There is no logical explanation here. There is no reason that Zouken wouldn't have that conversation with her. It could be said that the active existence of Zouken negates the other two routes. Perhaps that's the reason many call Heaven's Feel the true route with true ending.
It's a possibility, that's all. Maybe as she had more time with Shirou (he accompanied her at home, they talked in the classroom) and Rin appeared as a conversation subject, some feelings were triggered into Sakura and Zouken saw them.

Or simply here Zouken was smarter. Probably the dialogue happened in all the routes, but he wasn't able to crack her determination.
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Unread postby negum » December 30th, 2008, 1:01 am

Rikh wrote:maybe UBW was about Rin or something

oh wait... It is ;)

dont be too nitty picky with the small details, that removes the fun from the game

Actually, isn't it more about Archer/Shirou than about Rin? :wink:

Yeah, of course he isn't important for UBW. But still, it bugs me that he only appears in HF and has no role whatsoever in the other routes.
There aren't even hints that he is plotting something behind the scenes. Or he could have just come over as Sakura's "friedly" grandfather to bring her back home.
All other characters appear at least somehow in each route while Zouken is MIA.

Maybe I'm really just nit-picking. But it doesn't change the fact that it bothers me. :P
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 30th, 2008, 5:33 am

negum wrote:
Rikh wrote:maybe UBW was about Rin or something

oh wait... It is ;)

dont be too nitty picky with the small details, that removes the fun from the game

Actually, isn't it more about Archer/Shirou than about Rin? :wink:

Yeah, of course he isn't important for UBW. But still, it bugs me that he only appears in HF and has no role whatsoever in the other routes.
There aren't even hints that he is plotting something behind the scenes. Or he could have just come over as Sakura's "friedly" grandfather to bring her back home.
All other characters appear at least somehow in each route while Zouken is MIA.

Maybe I'm really just nit-picking. But it doesn't change the fact that it bothers me. :P


Wrong, True Assassin doesn't appear either XD. He had no reason to appear in the other routes. In HF, Rider wasn't killed off completely and Sakura's relationship with Shirou was stronger, making her more susceptible to the worms or something. They even explained it that he had the right cards this time.
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Unread postby Raitei » December 30th, 2008, 6:08 am

Watashimo wrote:Wrong, True Assassin doesn't appear either XD. He had no reason to appear in the other routes.
more likely, he cannot appear in other routes. zouken had no reason to make his appearance in fate and ubw, but he still CAN, if he (nasu?) wants. true assassin cannot be summoned without zouken making a move, thus was never mentioned in any of those routes.
]
the difference between true assassin and zouken is that particular point. zouken is "there", while true assassin is "not there".
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 30th, 2008, 6:09 am

Raitei wrote:
Watashimo wrote:Wrong, True Assassin doesn't appear either XD. He had no reason to appear in the other routes.
more likely, he cannot appear in other routes. zouken had no reason to make his appearance in fate and ubw, but he still CAN, if he (nasu?) wants. true assassin cannot be summoned without zouken making a move, thus was never mentioned in any of those routes.


Eh, I guess I phrased that wrong. After the "XD", I was talking about Zouken again.
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Unread postby Kenzu » December 30th, 2008, 1:08 pm

Kansho wrote:It's a possibility, that's all. Maybe as she had more time with Shirou (he accompanied her at home, they talked in the classroom) and Rin appeared as a conversation subject, some feelings were triggered into Sakura and Zouken saw them.

Or simply here Zouken was smarter. Probably the dialogue happened in all the routes, but he wasn't able to crack her determination.


It just hit me when I read your post. The triggers.

The question about Rin did appear while walking Sakura home. Sakura was moved by that a bit, because she knew he liked her. The feelings of resignation surfaced a bit.

When she saw that Reiju appeared on Shirou's hand, it was a shock. She was feeling down for the whole day. Again, the feelings of resignation.

At that point all the routes can still be chosen.

The last trigger is when worried Shirou comes to check on Sakura.
Sakura always thought that Shirou should be with someone else, but when he came worried about her, she once again wished to be with him. At that point she realized that it's not an impossible wish.
Shirou once again changed her words from "give up" to "keep going".

Zouken's line would be the same in all routes if he's the same old bastard. He knows what kind of feelings Sakura has for Rin.

But due to all the triggers, Sakura would have these thoughts in Heaven's Feel:

Rin is participating in the War
Rin will win the War
Shirou got involved in the War
Shirou cared for her
She could be with Shirou
But Shirou will be killed by Rin

I think that would be a pretty good explanation.
Last edited by Kenzu on December 31st, 2008, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 30th, 2008, 6:18 pm

True Assassin is always an enigma for me. First of all, Zouken had no command mantra. It was stated he had never directly involved himself in any of the Heaven's Feel, thus he had no residue command spell. Since he had no mantra for the current Heaven's Feel, he should not be able to form a legitimate contract with True Assassin. The master provides the servant with an anchor in this world, as well as pays for the upkeep costs. Even if True Assassin can pay for his upkeep cost by absorbing souls, he will still be crushed by the World because he had no association with the Modern times. Gilgamesh is able to avoid this fate because he has a physical vessels in this era, thus he does not need a master to anchor him.
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Unread postby spathi » December 30th, 2008, 6:22 pm

I'm alot more surprised as how he managed to beat assassin in the 1st place
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Unread postby DarkEyes » December 30th, 2008, 6:59 pm

to me it looked something like zoken using assassins body as a catalyst to summon true assassin....
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Unread postby Uberoy » December 31st, 2008, 12:10 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:True Assassin is always an enigma for me. First of all, Zouken had no command mantra. It was stated he had never directly involved himself in any of the Heaven's Feel, thus he had no residue command spell. Since he had no mantra for the current Heaven's Feel, he should not be able to form a legitimate contract with True Assassin.


I dont think this would be a problem for him because it was the Matou's who created the Command Spells.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 31st, 2008, 4:12 am

Ya, I posted earlier somewhere asking the same question about who killed Kojiro. It is obvious True Assassin was summoned from the dying Kojiro and ate his way out of the corpse. Zouken and/or Rider probably ambushed Kojiro, as the graphic effect seemed to indicate some sort of projectiles.

I guess the technicality of the contract between Zouken and True Assassin is not really important. Their true bond was formed after the "pursuit of immortality" dialogue.
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Unread postby Xanathos » December 31st, 2008, 4:55 am

here's an inconsistency.

In Heaven's Feel Illya states that due to her absorbing archer, she knows his identity.

However, why is it that in the fate route she couldn't?
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:30 am

Xanathos wrote:here's an inconsistency.

In Heaven's Feel Illya states that due to her absorbing archer, she knows his identity.

However, why is it that in the fate route she couldn't?


well she probably did know
it just only had significance in Heavens Feel because it was Archers arm on Shiro's body

Also its big spoilers to the UBW route if mentioned in Fate. Illya probably found no reason to depress or scare shiro about it during fate, as it wasn't necessary
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Unread postby Raitei » December 31st, 2008, 12:18 pm

Rikh wrote:
Xanathos wrote:here's an inconsistency.

In Heaven's Feel Illya states that due to her absorbing archer, she knows his identity.

However, why is it that in the fate route she couldn't?


well she probably did know
it just only had significance in Heavens Feel because it was Archers arm on Shiro's body

Also its big spoilers to the UBW route if mentioned in Fate. Illya probably found no reason to depress or scare shiro about it during fate, as it wasn't necessary
I have two speculations about that :
1. ilya didn't know who archer was in fate, since she only became the vessel of the lesser grail.
2. she knew, but since it's already the end of the story, it's unknown whether she really told shirou or not. (probably yes, but nasu cut it off since it would spoil ubw)
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Unread postby samasamon » January 1st, 2009, 5:21 pm

She say who is that hero in fate when fight between zerker and archer end. She should already know because archer already disappear.

That's strange.
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Unread postby Kenzu » January 1st, 2009, 5:23 pm

An unexplainable inconsistensy would appear while comparing Normal End with True End.

It's explained what is wrong with Sakura in the True End. Many things are mentioned f.e. enormous mana supply, connection with the other side, keeping Rider and also a way to handle all the problems.

The same symptoms SHOULD be in Normal End too, but that doesn't seem to be the case. She lives normally, like the symptoms from the True End never existed.

That's one of the reasons why I treat Normal End as an extra that shows Shirou and Sakura's beginnings, rather than an alternative ending like UBW Good End.
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Unread postby that one guy » January 1st, 2009, 7:21 pm

Well she doesn't have Rider in Normal End, we can assume that she didn't have the heart. And while it wasn't adressed what she did with her excess mana, we can make assumptions there. 'Sides, if we were told, it would really take away the impact of what happened, IMO.
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