Some inconsistencies in heavens feel (spoiler)

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Some inconsistencies in heavens feel (spoiler)

Unread postby Ferozban » December 28th, 2008, 9:49 pm

Hi,

well i have some questions since i found some inconsistencies in heavens feel that i couldnt get out of my head.

1) first of all.

why excactly is zouken participating in the grail war this time and never though about it in the other arcs?
the arcs change since shirou makes other choices. the only thing that changed compared to the other arcs was that shirou fought shinji sooner than in the other arcs. but thats hardly any reason for zouken to interfere. (quite the opposite after seeing how strong saber is)
also zouken said himself that he had some "good cards" this time so he didnt let the chance slip by.
well he also had those "cards" in the other arcs, didnt he? and he wants nothing more than beeing immortal, so why did he not participate in the other arcs. Seeing how easily he defeated caster and made his true assasin, he had certainly no reason to not participate in the other arcs.

this somehow misses a good reason.


2) shirous arm

The Status-Menu states that Archer is 1.87 meter high, and we all she that he is much taller than shirou.

shriou also stated in a conversation with rider that he is 1.70 (he was comparing himself to rider)

SOOO

How can archer give him his arm... well he certainly can, but shirou would look like a deformed man with a birth defect since one arm should have been at least 5 cm longer than the other. one arm should have been too long.
but in no picture is his left arm longer thn his right arm.

thats impoosible is it not?


3) ilya is 11 years old. that was stated in the game several times. i remeber them stating that she was created 11 years ago. And since she is the child of kiritsugu and the einzbern women he had 11 years ago theres no doubt about it.

but everytime i start the game i get the message "every character appearing in this game is over 18 years"....

how is this justifiable?

~so long ~fb
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Unread postby negum » December 28th, 2008, 10:05 pm

1) I completely agree on that. Zouken practically comes out of nowhere. That's one of the reasons why HF feels kinda out of place for me compared to the other two routes.

2) Isn't it that the soul "overrides" the body or something like that. That's also the reason shirou looks still like him in the end when he lost his real body.
But shouldn't the skin colour adjust as well in that case?

3) Isn't Ilya actually older than Shirou? I believe to have read that somewhere.
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Unread postby Kcuf » December 28th, 2008, 10:18 pm

negum wrote:3) Isn't Ilya actually older than Shirou? I believe to have read that somewhere.


In the end when Illya is sacrificing herself, she said that it's the role of the big sister to protect her little brother. So yeah, she is older than Shirou, who is 17.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 28th, 2008, 10:26 pm

Technically
Illya is around 17/18, but has a lolified body due to the cact that she has to play the role as the vessel of the Grail. In any case she was trined for 10 years straight, and beofre that Kirisugu Emiya used to play with Illya as a child before the 4th HF War. After that he never saw her again. So she is older, but has the body of a loli.
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Unread postby Gumaster » December 28th, 2008, 10:42 pm

Kid-Wolf wrote:Technically
Illya is around 17/18, but has a lolified body due to the cact that she has to play the role as the vessel of the Grail. In any case she was trined for 10 years straight, and beofre that Kirisugu Emiya used to play with Illya as a child before the 4th HF War. After that he never saw her again. So she is older, but has the body of a loli.

to be exact, her growth is abnormal due to her being a rushed homunculus.
Still, that means that quite a lot of the people in the game are under 18..hmm =\
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 29th, 2008, 12:09 am

I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.
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Unread postby that one guy » December 29th, 2008, 1:16 am

Well, we don't really know that Zouken didn't do something in the other routes, we just didn't see him do it. But, you could draw some conclusion that he was spurred to action after meeting Shirou. I mean hell, if I knew someone like him was going to be a master I'd sure as hell enter the grail war. All things considered, he was worthless.
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Unread postby Anium » December 29th, 2008, 2:05 am

1)He enters the war because shinji loses too early and some changes in sakura that don't happen at the other routes.

2) Guess what they said, or maybe kotomine looked at the arm and had a garness fight that won, and the arm just became smaller.

3)She is 18, was 8 at the 4th war, so ten years later at the 5th she is 18.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 29th, 2008, 2:05 am

Ya, question 3 is answered well.
For question 1, Zouken didn't have a chance to summon True Assassin in the other routes, who is one of his huge assets in Heaven's Feel. Also, Rider had been COMPLETELY erased from existence in the other routes, instead of badly injured. This removed another one of Zouken's assets, and also made the already involuntary Sakura a servantless master (kind of worthless to Zouken). With these cards removed and tough servants such as Sabre and Gilgamesh still remaining, he probably gave up in the other routes.

For question 2. In Nasuverse, the body conforms to the soul. As an Artificial Phantasm, GARm has become a part of Shirou. This is why the arm remains after Archer was eliminated. As part of Shirou's body, it will try to become Shirou's arm as his soul remembers it. This is my theory, but there are evidence of its truth. Zouken's last body was that of a woman's, but his soul was able to mold it into the shape of an old man. Also, Shirou's puppet body reverted to the way he used to look like.
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Unread postby Kansho » December 29th, 2008, 2:32 am

1 - The game shows why Zouken didn't appear in the other routes, so it's not out of place at all. In this route, he's able to break through Sakura's "fortress" and he decided to didn't waste his "precious experiment". And he and Shirou met.

2 - In some CGs, we see the arm being larger than his normal standard arm.
Like in the killing Saber CG.
Or in the Nine Bullet Revolver CG of Realta Nua.

3 - Ilya is 18. I don't know when you see that "11" thing, but not in the game.
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Unread postby JLA » December 29th, 2008, 4:07 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.


Certain black cat?
I'm unfamiliar with this one... can someone please explain it for me?
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Unread postby Atriel » December 29th, 2008, 4:10 am

Question #1: Well, he said it himself. I can't really remember but some things changed and because of that the conditions for him to take action were all met.

Question #2: Dunno. I never took interest in it.

For question #3 i'll just state the obvious.-

- If it's an ero game, every character involved in it is +18. No discussions.

What, you say she's too young? Nah, she just looks like that. Definitely 18 or more. Not everyone has big breasts.

What? They are high school students? So what? They are 18 anyway. In MY universe they still go to high school. Suck it up.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 29th, 2008, 5:48 am

Kansho wrote:
2 - In some CGs, we see the arm being larger than his normal standard arm.
Like in the killing Saber CG.
Or in the Nine Bullet Revolver CG of Realta Nua.



The arms seem to have the same length if you look at the picture of Shirou after the attachment surgery, the GARm is just more muscular. If the spirit theory is false, then this may be a plot hole, lol.
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Unread postby Xanathos » December 29th, 2008, 6:02 am

You have to wonder though. Since Shirou's body is gone, does that mean that avalon was destroyed as well or was it attached to his soul?
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 29th, 2008, 6:17 am

JLA wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.


Certain black cat?
I'm unfamiliar with this one... can someone please explain it for me?
-J


Well if you've played Kagetsu Tohya and got Len's final scenes with Shiki you'll understand. That's kind of the reason there.
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Unread postby spathi » December 29th, 2008, 7:26 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:
JLA wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.


Certain black cat?
I'm unfamiliar with this one... can someone please explain it for me?
-J


Well if you've played Kagetsu Tohya and got Len's final scenes with Shiki you'll understand. That's kind of the reason there.


lol blame len

and yeah I kinda wondered about avalon too
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Unread postby Kenzu » December 29th, 2008, 11:22 am

negum wrote:1) I completely agree on that. Zouken practically comes out of nowhere. That's one of the reasons why HF feels kinda out of place for me compared to the other two routes.


Zouken is mentioned in every route, but he only appears in the last.
In Fate Kotomine mentions the "old Makiri" when Shirou comes to talk about Gilgamesh.
In UBW Taiga told Shirou that Sakura's grandfather called her back home.

"he had certainly no reason to not participate in the other arcs." - you're damn right about that one
But Zouken would use his cards only if his strongest card (Sakura) got active.
If you talk about inconsistencies, then it would be about Sakura.
I mean, why did she crack only in HF?

Because her feelings for Shirou were stronger than ever?
Because Shirou cared about her more?
Because she saw a chance to be with him?
Or simply "Because"? (meaning the route has to be about her)

Zouken would interfere BECAUSE Saber was that strong. He knew from the start that the Shadow had the ability to steal Servants.
Caster was absorbed by the Shadow, before she disappeared after being defeated by Saber. The Shadow took out Assassin and as a Holy Grail morphed him into a different Eirei. At least I see the summoning that way. But Zouken had to be around to make a contract, that's a fact. The Makiri made the Command Spell system, so perhaps he found a loophole in the rules.

If you talk about arm length and Realta Nua then...
there's also a CG where Shirou and Ilya go back from shopping. His arms are of equal length.
So I'd agree to overwriting of the soul.
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Unread postby Kansho » December 29th, 2008, 12:45 pm

- I think that the reason because Sakura "crack" in HF it's that Zouken was smarter here and used her feelings for Rin and Shirou as a weapon. That's all.

- The GARm thing probably it's only graphic stuff. You know, some of Takeuchi's style drawings don't make any sense.

- Avalon thing. The sheath is probably attached to his soul, so I don't see the death of the body related.
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Unread postby JLA » December 29th, 2008, 5:08 pm

spathi wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:
JLA wrote:[quote="Kid-Wolf"]I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.


Certain black cat?
I'm unfamiliar with this one... can someone please explain it for me?
-J


Well if you've played Kagetsu Tohya and got Len's final scenes with Shiki you'll understand. That's kind of the reason there.


lol blame len

and yeah I kinda wondered about avalon too[/quote]

Thanks guys!
I am actually playing Kagetsu Tohya now since FSN is all done. :cry:
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » December 29th, 2008, 8:00 pm

JLA wrote:
spathi wrote:
Kid-Wolf wrote:[quote="JLA"][quote="Kid-Wolf"]I think it's mean that the models used for the ero ero scenes were over the age of 18, or something like that. In any case Illya's route got thorwn out due to a certain black cat if you will. At least I think that was one of the the few reasons for it.


Certain black cat?
I'm unfamiliar with this one... can someone please explain it for me?
-J


Well if you've played Kagetsu Tohya and got Len's final scenes with Shiki you'll understand. That's kind of the reason there.


lol blame len

and yeah I kinda wondered about avalon too[/quote]

Thanks guys!
I am actually playing Kagetsu Tohya now since FSN is all done. :cry:[/quote]



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Seven days...!


now after that I must say that Ren is a lot older than Illya ...I mean she is hundert of years old isn't she?

I mean, she help Arc in the past and all that stuff

she might have the soul of a child and a cat but she is still really, really old, isn't she?
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