Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

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Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

Unread postby Kenzu » December 28th, 2008, 8:43 pm

Hey all. How about clearing up the identity of Archer once and for all? If you have a thought on that then please write: Which timeline (world), which Shirou and WHY. I have my own view but I'll wait for replies for now.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 29th, 2008, 2:09 am

Arai had a page on Fuyuki, please refer to that. It is the most objective compilation I have seen so far, going any further will be adding personal hypotheses and opinions.
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Unread postby spathi » December 29th, 2008, 7:29 am

can you give the link then?
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Unread postby Raitei » December 29th, 2008, 11:44 am

even arai's comment about "which route is archer from" is merely a speculation. a good one though.

http://web.archive.org/web/200706201104 ... r%27s+past
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 29th, 2008, 1:23 pm

so Archer is like having almost a total different past as Shirou?
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » December 29th, 2008, 1:35 pm

Raitei wrote:even arai's comment about "which route is archer from" is merely a speculation. a good one though.

http://web.archive.org/web/200706201104 ... r%27s+past


Is he trying to say that Archer is HF Shirou?...

There are some points there that are just 'here and there'... Cant really remember where i heard what...
"When a petanko hugs you, she's hugging closer to her heart"...
~:~:~
"There is no greater love, between a boy and his pillow"
~:~:~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_FT_c3IiQ
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Unread postby spathi » December 29th, 2008, 2:47 pm

I thought about that a long time ago
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 29th, 2008, 2:48 pm

fuyuki wrote:Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it)

Whut? Can someone explain this to me (semantic errors FTW) and when it is stated? Thanks in advance :D
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Unread postby Inverted » December 29th, 2008, 3:41 pm

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Unread postby Kenzu » December 29th, 2008, 11:14 pm

Seriously? There are WAY TOO MANY mistakes in this theory to match Archer. I started this thread because I wanted to share my opinion on the matter and not just accept what someone else wrote. I see no reason not to discuss it.

Besides, aren't personal hypotheses and opinions what makes the discussion? It's thanks to that we can understand more about the subject.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 30th, 2008, 1:45 am

What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.
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Unread postby spathi » December 30th, 2008, 11:17 am

I think Fate shirou still has a slim chance since he "freed" saber in that route
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Unread postby Raitei » December 30th, 2008, 11:30 am

spathi wrote:I think Fate shirou still has a slim chance since he "freed" saber in that route
sorry if I'm wrong, buy your words sound like "freeing saber added some points on the possibility of becoming archer". if so, that's not true, since archer never freed saber.

but sorry again if I'm mistaken.
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Unread postby spathi » December 30th, 2008, 11:57 am

Raitei wrote:
spathi wrote:I think Fate shirou still has a slim chance since he "freed" saber in that route
sorry if I'm wrong, buy your words sound like "freeing saber added some points on the possibility of becoming archer". if so, that's not true, since archer never freed saber.

but sorry again if I'm mistaken.


yeah you read it the other way around,

not freeing saber added points to being archer, just wanted to point that out since most people would say fate shirou has a big chance of being archer
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Unread postby Kenzu » December 30th, 2008, 12:06 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.


Okay then. I'll point out everything while analyzing all the points. Time to go all-out.

Encountered Saber the same way as Shirou did in the game.

That's all good. Can't be anything else really.


Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.


Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.


Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.


Pendant is void of maryoku unlike the pendant existing in the present.

Yep, sure is. There can be only speculations on what he could have used it for.
In HF through his arm, Archer said that Shirou must have it in the end. He probably foresaw that Shirou will need it.
It could also mean that he used it just before dying too.
In the end, this point doesn't really tell us anything.


Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya. We all know well that heroes can be summoned to any timeline.
In Fate it could be said that Archer was Shirou's mentor. He taught him the way he should fight. Without Archer's hints Shirou would probably never figure out how to effectively use and train his magic. Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.


Had an unpleasant experience in England involving a bridge and the Thames

I have no idea about this, so it's not from Fate/stay night, but from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or something.
I haven't understood nor played it yet so I don't know. Anyway, no point in "Archer's identity discussion". Such a thing can happen in any scenario to any Shirou.


Encountered Gungnir at some point (either that or embedded knowledge through summonings).

Yeah, he did say Gae Bolg's power was even more greater than "the original Gungnir".
But that doesn't tell us anything about his identity.


Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

Yeah, the Contract was made. It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.

Fate Shirou fought through the 5th Holy Grail War and won. By doing so he was able to save many lives.
So he was able to make his ideal real when he had Saber's help.
Years after that, a disaster occured. He couldn't do anything on his own, so he decided to obtain power in order to make his ideal come true once again. He thought that power is needed to change his ideal into reality. He had the power during the War and it worked, so it should work now too.
We know how it ended.


Contract with the world granted him physical augmentation in addition

Could be. Perhaps he became something like Saber. He had supernatural strength and speed, but couldn't
turn into spirit form when he was still alive.


Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it).

Yeah, he was killed because of a person he saved blamed him to be the cause of a conflict. It wasn't said
what kind of conflict, but war is not a bad suggestion. Anyway it wasn't said anywhere that this person caused
the conflict.


So in the end, Archer is the future Fate Shirou. Even if Fate Shirou's chances of becoming Archer are 10% or
how do you count it, even if there are many parallel Shirou's who won't become Archer, there is one Fate Shirou
who will most definitely become Archer. This way 10% probability turns into 100%.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 30th, 2008, 4:13 pm

Kenzu wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.


Okay then. I'll point out everything while analyzing all the points. Time to go all-out.

Encountered Saber the same way as Shirou did in the game.

That's all good. Can't be anything else really.


Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.


Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.


Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.


Pendant is void of maryoku unlike the pendant existing in the present.

Yep, sure is. There can be only speculations on what he could have used it for.
In HF through his arm, Archer said that Shirou must have it in the end. He probably foresaw that Shirou will need it.
It could also mean that he used it just before dying too.
In the end, this point doesn't really tell us anything.


Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya. We all know well that heroes can be summoned to any timeline.
In Fate it could be said that Archer was Shirou's mentor. He taught him the way he should fight. Without Archer's hints Shirou would probably never figure out how to effectively use and train his magic. Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.


Had an unpleasant experience in England involving a bridge and the Thames

I have no idea about this, so it's not from Fate/stay night, but from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or something.
I haven't understood nor played it yet so I don't know. Anyway, no point in "Archer's identity discussion". Such a thing can happen in any scenario to any Shirou.


Encountered Gungnir at some point (either that or embedded knowledge through summonings).

Yeah, he did say Gae Bolg's power was even more greater than "the original Gungnir".
But that doesn't tell us anything about his identity.


Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

Yeah, the Contract was made. It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.

Fate Shirou fought through the 5th Holy Grail War and won. By doing so he was able to save many lives.
So he was able to make his ideal real when he had Saber's help.
Years after that, a disaster occured. He couldn't do anything on his own, so he decided to obtain power in order to make his ideal come true once again. He thought that power is needed to change his ideal into reality. He had the power during the War and it worked, so it should work now too.
We know how it ended.


Contract with the world granted him physical augmentation in addition

Could be. Perhaps he became something like Saber. He had supernatural strength and speed, but couldn't
turn into spirit form when he was still alive.


Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it).

Yeah, he was killed because of a person he saved blamed him to be the cause of a conflict. It wasn't said
what kind of conflict, but war is not a bad suggestion. Anyway it wasn't said anywhere that this person caused
the conflict.


So in the end, Archer is the future Fate Shirou. Even if Fate Shirou's chances of becoming Archer are 10% or
how do you count it, even if there are many parallel Shirou's who won't become Archer, there is one Fate Shirou
who will most definitely become Archer. This way 10% probability turns into 100%.

there are a few mistakes in your corrections as well...

Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is

Well believe it or not, there are other ways to find out he has the sheath instead of hearing it from saber...
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.

Umm well its inevitable that saber would be freed one day. No matter what, he contract with the grail will always be destroyed when the grail is destroyed. Saber also can be summoned an infinite amount of times until she achieves her goal. There is no way saber cannot be freed, it is inevitable to happen. Archer never freed saber, he just knew he failed at doing it, but knew it was not impossible

Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.

its never stated archer is from any of the routes in the game... All we know is that archer was unable to save Illya, which is most likely a route similar to Heavens Feel where Illya was the main character. This would also explain his knowledge of the Angra Mainyu incarnations that appear several times

Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.

if he had a sexual relationship with saber, the odds are he might have been able to 'save' her. Saber disappeared early on in life, and his lover is just speculation. It would be safe to say that archer has a possibility of living with Rin in the future, but that in itself is a small possibility. The thing is that he could possibly have a lover that was not even mentioned in the game... Your limiting your thoughts to only information provided in a few days time... shiro can live a life after the holy grail war u know

Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

im not even fully quoting this...
Archer made a contract with the world to achieve a small miracle.. that is true. However, it has nothing to do with it being fate shiro. All we know is that Archer followed his ideal to the point where it killed him in life. I mean seriously, yes it is possible for Fate shiro to be the product of that wish, but it is also possible it is not. Honestly archer cannot be fate shiro, as Fate shiro saved saber, saved (erm protected...) Illya... never lost an arm during the war... had avalon removed, etc..

Archer is not fate shiro, its just he has more similarities to fate shiro than other variants. Archer most likely Illya Route shiro with a bad end if you truly want his identity, because that fits along perfectly.


In short, Archer is definitely not the product of Fate, UBW, or HF (DEFINITELY NOT HF)
He is the product of a route not mentioned in the game
(Loli-Route anyone?)
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 30th, 2008, 4:16 pm

Rikh wrote:
Kenzu wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.


Okay then. I'll point out everything while analyzing all the points. Time to go all-out.

Encountered Saber the same way as Shirou did in the game.

That's all good. Can't be anything else really.


Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.


Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.


Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.


Pendant is void of maryoku unlike the pendant existing in the present.

Yep, sure is. There can be only speculations on what he could have used it for.
In HF through his arm, Archer said that Shirou must have it in the end. He probably foresaw that Shirou will need it.
It could also mean that he used it just before dying too.
In the end, this point doesn't really tell us anything.


Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya. We all know well that heroes can be summoned to any timeline.
In Fate it could be said that Archer was Shirou's mentor. He taught him the way he should fight. Without Archer's hints Shirou would probably never figure out how to effectively use and train his magic. Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.


Had an unpleasant experience in England involving a bridge and the Thames

I have no idea about this, so it's not from Fate/stay night, but from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or something.
I haven't understood nor played it yet so I don't know. Anyway, no point in "Archer's identity discussion". Such a thing can happen in any scenario to any Shirou.


Encountered Gungnir at some point (either that or embedded knowledge through summonings).

Yeah, he did say Gae Bolg's power was even more greater than "the original Gungnir".
But that doesn't tell us anything about his identity.


Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

Yeah, the Contract was made. It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.

Fate Shirou fought through the 5th Holy Grail War and won. By doing so he was able to save many lives.
So he was able to make his ideal real when he had Saber's help.
Years after that, a disaster occured. He couldn't do anything on his own, so he decided to obtain power in order to make his ideal come true once again. He thought that power is needed to change his ideal into reality. He had the power during the War and it worked, so it should work now too.
We know how it ended.


Contract with the world granted him physical augmentation in addition

Could be. Perhaps he became something like Saber. He had supernatural strength and speed, but couldn't
turn into spirit form when he was still alive.


Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it).

Yeah, he was killed because of a person he saved blamed him to be the cause of a conflict. It wasn't said
what kind of conflict, but war is not a bad suggestion. Anyway it wasn't said anywhere that this person caused
the conflict.


So in the end, Archer is the future Fate Shirou. Even if Fate Shirou's chances of becoming Archer are 10% or
how do you count it, even if there are many parallel Shirou's who won't become Archer, there is one Fate Shirou
who will most definitely become Archer. This way 10% probability turns into 100%.

there are a few mistakes in your corrections as well...

Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is

Well believe it or not, there are other ways to find out he has the sheath instead of hearing it from saber...
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.

Umm well its inevitable that saber would be freed one day. No matter what, he contract with the grail will always be destroyed when the grail is destroyed. Saber also can be summoned an infinite amount of times until she achieves her goal. There is no way saber cannot be freed, it is inevitable to happen. Archer never freed saber, he just knew he failed at doing it, but knew it was not impossible

Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.

its never stated archer is from any of the routes in the game... All we know is that archer was unable to save Illya, which is most likely a route similar to Heavens Feel where Illya was the main character. This would also explain his knowledge of the Angra Mainyu incarnations that appear several times

Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.

if he had a sexual relationship with saber, the odds are he might have been able to 'save' her. Saber disappeared early on in life, and his lover is just speculation. It would be safe to say that archer has a possibility of living with Rin in the future, but that in itself is a small possibility. The thing is that he could possibly have a lover that was not even mentioned in the game... Your limiting your thoughts to only information provided in a few days time... shiro can live a life after the holy grail war u know

Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

im not even fully quoting this...
Archer made a contract with the world to achieve a small miracle.. that is true. However, it has nothing to do with it being fate shiro. All we know is that Archer followed his ideal to the point where it killed him in life. I mean seriously, yes it is possible for Fate shiro to be the product of that wish, but it is also possible it is not. Honestly archer cannot be fate shiro, as Fate shiro saved saber, saved (erm protected...) Illya... never lost an arm during the war... had avalon removed, etc..

Archer is not fate shiro, its just he has more similarities to fate shiro than other variants. Archer most likely Illya Route shiro with a bad end if you truly want his identity, because that fits along perfectly.


In short, Archer is definitely not the product of Fate, UBW, or HF (DEFINITELY NOT HF)
He is the product of a route not mentioned in the game
(Loli-Route anyone?)
Might be Taiga Route , where Taiga was the Holy Grail >_<
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Rikh » December 30th, 2008, 4:17 pm

Xamdou wrote:
Rikh wrote:
Kenzu wrote:[quote="Keeper of Gil's Vault"]What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.


Okay then. I'll point out everything while analyzing all the points. Time to go all-out.

Encountered Saber the same way as Shirou did in the game.

That's all good. Can't be anything else really.


Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.


Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.


Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.


Pendant is void of maryoku unlike the pendant existing in the present.

Yep, sure is. There can be only speculations on what he could have used it for.
In HF through his arm, Archer said that Shirou must have it in the end. He probably foresaw that Shirou will need it.
It could also mean that he used it just before dying too.
In the end, this point doesn't really tell us anything.


Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya. We all know well that heroes can be summoned to any timeline.
In Fate it could be said that Archer was Shirou's mentor. He taught him the way he should fight. Without Archer's hints Shirou would probably never figure out how to effectively use and train his magic. Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.


Had an unpleasant experience in England involving a bridge and the Thames

I have no idea about this, so it's not from Fate/stay night, but from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or something.
I haven't understood nor played it yet so I don't know. Anyway, no point in "Archer's identity discussion". Such a thing can happen in any scenario to any Shirou.


Encountered Gungnir at some point (either that or embedded knowledge through summonings).

Yeah, he did say Gae Bolg's power was even more greater than "the original Gungnir".
But that doesn't tell us anything about his identity.


Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

Yeah, the Contract was made. It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.

Fate Shirou fought through the 5th Holy Grail War and won. By doing so he was able to save many lives.
So he was able to make his ideal real when he had Saber's help.
Years after that, a disaster occured. He couldn't do anything on his own, so he decided to obtain power in order to make his ideal come true once again. He thought that power is needed to change his ideal into reality. He had the power during the War and it worked, so it should work now too.
We know how it ended.


Contract with the world granted him physical augmentation in addition

Could be. Perhaps he became something like Saber. He had supernatural strength and speed, but couldn't
turn into spirit form when he was still alive.


Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it).

Yeah, he was killed because of a person he saved blamed him to be the cause of a conflict. It wasn't said
what kind of conflict, but war is not a bad suggestion. Anyway it wasn't said anywhere that this person caused
the conflict.


So in the end, Archer is the future Fate Shirou. Even if Fate Shirou's chances of becoming Archer are 10% or
how do you count it, even if there are many parallel Shirou's who won't become Archer, there is one Fate Shirou
who will most definitely become Archer. This way 10% probability turns into 100%.

there are a few mistakes in your corrections as well...

Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is

Well believe it or not, there are other ways to find out he has the sheath instead of hearing it from saber...
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.

Umm well its inevitable that saber would be freed one day. No matter what, he contract with the grail will always be destroyed when the grail is destroyed. Saber also can be summoned an infinite amount of times until she achieves her goal. There is no way saber cannot be freed, it is inevitable to happen. Archer never freed saber, he just knew he failed at doing it, but knew it was not impossible

Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.

its never stated archer is from any of the routes in the game... All we know is that archer was unable to save Illya, which is most likely a route similar to Heavens Feel where Illya was the main character. This would also explain his knowledge of the Angra Mainyu incarnations that appear several times

Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.

if he had a sexual relationship with saber, the odds are he might have been able to 'save' her. Saber disappeared early on in life, and his lover is just speculation. It would be safe to say that archer has a possibility of living with Rin in the future, but that in itself is a small possibility. The thing is that he could possibly have a lover that was not even mentioned in the game... Your limiting your thoughts to only information provided in a few days time... shiro can live a life after the holy grail war u know

Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

im not even fully quoting this...
Archer made a contract with the world to achieve a small miracle.. that is true. However, it has nothing to do with it being fate shiro. All we know is that Archer followed his ideal to the point where it killed him in life. I mean seriously, yes it is possible for Fate shiro to be the product of that wish, but it is also possible it is not. Honestly archer cannot be fate shiro, as Fate shiro saved saber, saved (erm protected...) Illya... never lost an arm during the war... had avalon removed, etc..

Archer is not fate shiro, its just he has more similarities to fate shiro than other variants. Archer most likely Illya Route shiro with a bad end if you truly want his identity, because that fits along perfectly.


In short, Archer is definitely not the product of Fate, UBW, or HF (DEFINITELY NOT HF)
He is the product of a route not mentioned in the game
(Loli-Route anyone?)
Might be Taiga Route , where Taiga was the Holy Grail >_<[/quote]
I <3 u :oops:
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 30th, 2008, 4:18 pm

Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:
Rikh wrote:[quote="Kenzu"][quote="Keeper of Gil's Vault"]What do you mean by 'WAY TOO MANY mistakes"? All the points are just summary of the various dialogues/descriptions that have occurred in-game. Past exhaustive discussions were all inconclusive. All we could agree on was that in terms of the potential to become Archer: Fate Shirou > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou (~0% probability, as he relinquished his ideal).

Hypotheses and opinions are great, but the first lesson all writing instructors will teach you is that they must be supported by concrete evidence. As Raitei has posted, all the fragments of information we have are there, and all we can construct from these fragments is the spectrum stated above.


Okay then. I'll point out everything while analyzing all the points. Time to go all-out.

Encountered Saber the same way as Shirou did in the game.

That's all good. Can't be anything else really.


Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.


Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.


Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.


Pendant is void of maryoku unlike the pendant existing in the present.

Yep, sure is. There can be only speculations on what he could have used it for.
In HF through his arm, Archer said that Shirou must have it in the end. He probably foresaw that Shirou will need it.
It could also mean that he used it just before dying too.
In the end, this point doesn't really tell us anything.


Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya. We all know well that heroes can be summoned to any timeline.
In Fate it could be said that Archer was Shirou's mentor. He taught him the way he should fight. Without Archer's hints Shirou would probably never figure out how to effectively use and train his magic. Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.


Had an unpleasant experience in England involving a bridge and the Thames

I have no idea about this, so it's not from Fate/stay night, but from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia or something.
I haven't understood nor played it yet so I don't know. Anyway, no point in "Archer's identity discussion". Such a thing can happen in any scenario to any Shirou.


Encountered Gungnir at some point (either that or embedded knowledge through summonings).

Yeah, he did say Gae Bolg's power was even more greater than "the original Gungnir".
But that doesn't tell us anything about his identity.


Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

Yeah, the Contract was made. It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.

Fate Shirou fought through the 5th Holy Grail War and won. By doing so he was able to save many lives.
So he was able to make his ideal real when he had Saber's help.
Years after that, a disaster occured. He couldn't do anything on his own, so he decided to obtain power in order to make his ideal come true once again. He thought that power is needed to change his ideal into reality. He had the power during the War and it worked, so it should work now too.
We know how it ended.


Contract with the world granted him physical augmentation in addition

Could be. Perhaps he became something like Saber. He had supernatural strength and speed, but couldn't
turn into spirit form when he was still alive.


Killed for starting a war by a person that he had saved (who also happened to be the one who started it).

Yeah, he was killed because of a person he saved blamed him to be the cause of a conflict. It wasn't said
what kind of conflict, but war is not a bad suggestion. Anyway it wasn't said anywhere that this person caused
the conflict.


So in the end, Archer is the future Fate Shirou. Even if Fate Shirou's chances of becoming Archer are 10% or
how do you count it, even if there are many parallel Shirou's who won't become Archer, there is one Fate Shirou
who will most definitely become Archer. This way 10% probability turns into 100%.

there are a few mistakes in your corrections as well...

Strong possibility that Avalon was never removed

Then how the hell would Archer know about Saber's sheath in UBW? Only Fate Shirou knew about the sheath's regenerative effects and it being inside him.
UBW Shirou heard that Archer said something about her sheath but he had no bloody idea what he meant.

Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is

Well believe it or not, there are other ways to find out he has the sheath instead of hearing it from saber...
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used


Was unable to "free" Saber

Then why would he say something like "Someday, the one who will release you will appear"?
That was when he unleashed UBW in the Church. Archer knows that because HE was the Shirou who freed her.

Umm well its inevitable that saber would be freed one day. No matter what, he contract with the grail will always be destroyed when the grail is destroyed. Saber also can be summoned an infinite amount of times until she achieves her goal. There is no way saber cannot be freed, it is inevitable to happen. Archer never freed saber, he just knew he failed at doing it, but knew it was not impossible

Had a special relationship with Ilya. Probably guilt?

The reason he gave Ilya'a look heavy with regret" in HF in the forest means that he couldn't do anything to save her. Ilya said in HF that she can't live long. The thing is she is a homunculus and her life span is short. The only Shirou who could be a match here is Fate Shirou who had Ilya living with him in the end.
UBW Shirou is out of the question, because he never knew Ilya.

its never stated archer is from any of the routes in the game... All we know is that archer was unable to save Illya, which is most likely a route similar to Heavens Feel where Illya was the main character. This would also explain his knowledge of the Angra Mainyu incarnations that appear several times

Did not necessarily have a sexual relationship with either Saber or Rin.

Of course he had sexual relationship. In Rin's dream about Archer it is said that "he had a friends and a lover. He lost all of them, and was cornered by the ideal he pursued". That "lover" was Saber. He loved and lost her in Fate, because of his convictions and sense of duty, also meaning his ideal.
To him she was an ideal hero - something he wanted to become. He said it in Fate "I loved Saber as she continued to fight even after getting hurt. She was a girl who discarded everything, was filled with injuries, yet still protected all the way through." Seeing how Saber protected her path made him want to protect his path the same way. That's why he was stubborn till the end.

if he had a sexual relationship with saber, the odds are he might have been able to 'save' her. Saber disappeared early on in life, and his lover is just speculation. It would be safe to say that archer has a possibility of living with Rin in the future, but that in itself is a small possibility. The thing is that he could possibly have a lover that was not even mentioned in the game... Your limiting your thoughts to only information provided in a few days time... shiro can live a life after the holy grail war u know

Stuck in a situation where he needed a miracle to save less than a hundred lives. Contract with the world was made at this point

im not even fully quoting this...
Archer made a contract with the world to achieve a small miracle.. that is true. However, it has nothing to do with it being fate shiro. All we know is that Archer followed his ideal to the point where it killed him in life. I mean seriously, yes it is possible for Fate shiro to be the product of that wish, but it is also possible it is not. Honestly archer cannot be fate shiro, as Fate shiro saved saber, saved (erm protected...) Illya... never lost an arm during the war... had avalon removed, etc..

Archer is not fate shiro, its just he has more similarities to fate shiro than other variants. Archer most likely Illya Route shiro with a bad end if you truly want his identity, because that fits along perfectly.


In short, Archer is definitely not the product of Fate, UBW, or HF (DEFINITELY NOT HF)
He is the product of a route not mentioned in the game
(Loli-Route anyone?)
Might be Taiga Route , where Taiga was the Holy Grail >_<[/quote]
I <3 u :oops:[/quote]Ara~ , same here :oops:
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Inverted » December 30th, 2008, 5:15 pm

Adding to what Rikh said
Besides, where did that conclusion come from? From being scewered by Gilgamesh and surviving long enough to help?
No, he survived because of two reasons:
1. he was a Servant - a being that can take many hits that are fatal for a normal human and still survive
2. He was Shirou - a guy who will go on no matter how worn out he is.

From this HF
[spoil]Image


and this Fate bad end


First time he projected a weapon, he screwed up one of his arms

OK, Archer did say that he had a similar (painful) experience to Shirou and messed up one of his arms.
But it is not said that it was his first time using projection. Just "new magic". It could be anything.
He didn't stay an amateur magus forever.

THIS is what Archer said


and Fate Shirou's first projection was Calibrun and he was perfectly alright. Heck he even carried Illya in his arms.

Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya.

Arai mentions possibly. He is working on the principle that every loop needs its beginning.I agree.
Also it could be that Fate Archer had a scarse of his memories of when he was summoned to UBW scenario. If not memories, then his feelings. Or not.

Archer had all his memories from the beginning in ALL the routes. He was lying through his teeth . He doesn't get selective amnesia. He is the same EMIYA.

It would be made by Shirou who pursued his ideal without realizing the
ideal's impossible. Meaning Fate Shirou.etc. etc.

As for Fate Shirou , he may not know as much as UBW Shirou, he came to know what being Superhero in the kotomine church.

[spoil]Image


Note: Image tags don't seem to go well with spoiler tags for me.
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