Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Atriel
OMEGA DESU!
Posts: 1030
Joined: October 21st, 2007, 3:49 am

Unread post by Atriel » December 30th, 2008, 6:10 pm

What i don't get is why would the same Archer be summoned. It's like they are summoning an heroic spirit from another timeline.

Then what comes after that, is what doesn't get in for me: This is saying that it is possible to summon a spirit that is from another timeline, and maybe in the actual timeline (when he is summoned), said spirit didn't make it to spirit state or whatever you call it.

Uhhh... maybe that was messed up. Here:

Timeline A:
Person A lives>Person A becomes Spirit A> Spirit A can be summoned at any time. (Like how Archer was summoned before Shirou became a Spirit)

Timeline B:
Same Person A lives>Person A died in an accident as a 5 years old kid> Spirit A from timline A is summoned.

But then, how would Spirit A be summoned into timeline B if no one knew of him? Does the end of time (that thing where the spirits go <_<) works for every possible timeline? And if that's so, wouldn't there be a shitload of spirits?

Just asking :P

spathi
Addict
Posts: 98
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 6:30 am
Location: Philippines

Unread post by spathi » December 30th, 2008, 6:20 pm

Atriel wrote:What i don't get is why would the same Archer be summoned. It's like they are summoning an heroic spirit from another timeline.

Then what comes after that, is what doesn't get in for me: This is saying that it is possible to summon a spirit that is from another timeline, and maybe in the actual timeline (when he is summoned), said spirit didn't make it to spirit state or whatever you call it.

Uhhh... maybe that was messed up. Here:

Timeline A:
Person A lives>Person A becomes Spirit A> Spirit A can be summoned at any time. (Like how Archer was summoned before Shirou became a Spirit)

Timeline B:
Same Person A lives>Person A died in an accident as a 5 years old kid> Spirit A from timline A is summoned.

But then, how would Spirit A be summoned into timeline B if no one knew of him? Does the end of time (that thing where the spirits go <_<) works for every possible timeline? And if that's so, wouldn't there be a shitload of spirits?

Just asking :P
they are removed from the normal timeline and placed somewhere time doesn't matter for them

User avatar
Mazyrian
Crack Desu!
Posts: 259
Joined: January 4th, 2008, 8:49 pm

Unread post by Mazyrian » December 30th, 2008, 11:57 pm

► Show Spoiler
"I am the spider that set this web.
-Welcome to this wonderful killing chamber."

User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 31st, 2008, 4:24 am

See? Exactly, after we depleted the concrete evidence, everything else becomes personal speculation, and no one is willing to accept another person's speculation.

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:19 am

Anywho... Archer is basically the by product of a screwed over shiro

He isnt a full fledged product of any of the routes, because some facts do not add up
(also the avalon never removed comment was almost perfectly justified by a previous post and screenshot)
Archer was a different shiro, the Shiro that became archer is full speculation and can be interpreted as any see how

Also the probability of Rin summoning a different Archer is probable, as there would definitely be some great confusion/paradox's in that...
If Archer in the past participated in the war with his future self there, it would be very improbable he would turn out the same way

umm im thinking how it should be explained...

Anyways, if Archer truly was summoned in the war in which Shiro took part in and then after became a heroic spirit, then its safe to say that the actions Emiya took would have to be exactly the same to prevent a time paradox (but then you have the throne of heroes thing...)

Anyways, if there was a possible Shiro that became a heroic spirit through a contract with the world, then there must be infinite Shiro's that became Heroic Spirt Emiya's since they are all the product of a different universe each
(also its clearly stated that in HF Tohsaka was able to draw energy from alternate similar dimensions with Zelretch... so this theory is possible. Also this explains Saber being a girl)

User avatar
Xamdou
DESU DESU!
Posts: 584
Joined: October 19th, 2008, 7:38 am
Location: The Ever Distant WC

Unread post by Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 5:22 am

Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:24 am

Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants

User avatar
Xamdou
DESU DESU!
Posts: 584
Joined: October 19th, 2008, 7:38 am
Location: The Ever Distant WC

Unread post by Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 5:30 am

Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
► Show Spoiler
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:32 am

Xamdou wrote:
Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
► Show Spoiler
lets not forget that shiro can save having his little 'ideal' fight because he will never become a heroic spirit. A somewhat sad ending for the opportunist, but still overall everybody actually lives

Caster and Kuzuki still die tho...

Kenzu
Addict
Posts: 79
Joined: November 15th, 2008, 2:34 pm

Unread post by Kenzu » December 31st, 2008, 2:13 pm

Here are some more of my thoughts about everything.
► Show Spoiler

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 3:46 pm

Kenzu wrote:Here are some more of my thoughts about everything.
ugh i give up... your limiting Archer to only the three routes presented in the game
It was already proven in UBW that Archer came from a different time-line than Shiro. It can be assumed that EMIYA's past is different from Shiro's past. They are the same person, but different people.

You cant just throw in something like a "holy" Element into the game, there is nothing that has ever mentioned it in the least. The fact is that since Avalon belonged to Saber, obviously it would have different effects when dealing with damage caused by saber. Archer and Shiro recieved longer lasting wounds from saber because it is heavily implied that Avalon is still in both of their bodies.

Maybe this is why Archer could not save saber, if he was useless in his past, and Saber did not withdraw Avalon, she might have died against gilgamesh while shiro destroyed the grail.

Also i repeat, there is no way Saber cannot be saved.
Her contract is with the Grail alone. If the grail is destroyed, so is her contract. No matter what route shiro follows, if he destroys the grail, then the contract is over. Also proven by GARcher, a heroic spirit may be summoned into alternate timelines (which was the whole games timeline...) IF sabers contract still did not end by the end of the war after the grail was destroyed, she could be summoned infinite times into parallel worlds or different times.

And since the throne of heroes is removed from time, once she completes her contract one time, then she will not have to achieve the grail anymore. And IF archer did save saber, then she would not ever be summoned even into an alternate timeline again because her contract is now gone with the world.
'

Proving Archer could not have saved saber. If he had, Saber would have not appeared again in HF 4

User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » December 31st, 2008, 3:56 pm

still continuing, are you? well then,
Kenzu wrote:
► Show Spoiler
it is NOT known whether archer know of avalon or not. sure, he may know about its existence and ability, but what we can safely assume is he DOES NOT know about its details (true name, effect, etc, etc..) otherwise, he would have told shirou to give it back to saber instead of talking shit like "only emiya shirou can defeat the king of heroes. emiya shirou is his natural enemy... etc, etc..."
► Show Spoiler
oh, there is. do you not count the WHEN factor? do you always assume that he MUST learn about avalon DURING the grail war? not AFTER? of course, this is another speculation, but unless you can point out a canon source regarding on how he learnt about avalon's existence, your point, too, is a speculation.
Archer like being, Saber and Dark Sakura are the only ones who could beat Gilgamesh.
Without getting Avalon out of Shirou's body Saber would never defeat Gilgamesh.
sorry? hellooo, we're talking about shitloads possibility why gilgamesh was defeated (or was he? maybe he only resides in church all the whole time). one of the strongest and simplest explanation is ubw-like final duel. shirou vs gilgamesh. faker vs king of heroes. and thus answers another question on how did archer get those truckloads of sword recordings inside his own ubw.

hint : nobody knows exactly when archer first learnt to expand ubw.

► Show Spoiler
sorry? archer's words in fate largely contains hidden hope that saber would be freed. why? because he knew she would suffer from the same condition he had gone through. see, archer told saber, saber told shirou (she told him that "he would go down the path she went") , and shirou, who thinks saber is beautiful yet sad because of that fact, freed her at last.
► Show Spoiler
so it is people's speculation that archer's from the route aside from the original there in f/sn. let me say this : whenever you deal with something that doesn't exist, you must speculate. there's no use searching the canon materials and / or hoping for canon discussions since the canon tself said that "there's little, if no chance that shirou from the three f/sn routes will become archer"
About a lover. Yes, I do limit the Holy Grail War as the only time Shirou can get a partner. I doubt anyone would be able to fall for this guy other than the three heroines. Just look at how dull he was with Sakura around. Yeah, he could be with Sakura or Rin, but he's a guy that would rather die himself than lose a girl he loves. In Saber's case, losing her was right with his ideal.
...what? lol. shirou didn't free saber because of his ideal. it was directly stated that he consider saber's life endeavour is beautiful, and hence did not want to trample on it. it has nothing to do with ideals. nothing at all.
Making a contract with the world is something that Fate Shirou would do. Why are people denying it so strongly?
There is a reason he would do it, but can anyone give a reason why he wouldn't do it?
aha, this is another fallacy. like saying "saddam hussein has a weapon of mass destruction since people cannot prove otherwise". well then, let me ask you this : why would he do it? he already made peace with his past; he first underwent the superhero ideal he borrowed from kiritsugu because he felt guilty. "I would have been one of them if it wasn't for kiritsugu", that's what he thought. so he worked hard in order to "atone" his sins. but the church basement scene already proved that he himself realized that "no matter what, you cannot change the past, so get over with it already and look forward".
► Show Spoiler
arai didn't make those points without referring to canon source, good gracious. (honestly, do you think you can point out better than him?) those points are canon, and I'm sure of it. I even remember in either ubw or fate (my memory's a little vague, so I can'tpoint the exact quote) that archer once said (or implied) that he summoned saber and was unable to free her.

► Show Spoiler
hahaa, this is one of the most interesting speculation I've ever heard so far. not being an ass, but holy element makes you regenerate faster? what is this? holy light? paladin's ability? (heals 250 damage to target ally or hero and / or deal 250 damage to undead enemies)

holy element makes berserker unable to regenerate quickly? what do you think his body is made of? dark element? if so, his body would be black. pitch black. not lead coloured. :P


► Show Spoiler
the point at hand was projection magic. archer saw what shirou did and commented about it in front of shirou and saber. there's no thinking otherwise.

not unthinkable, but quite improbable. fate shirou already made peace with himself. he no longer "gokrazeehtosaveasmuchpeopleasIcan".
► Show Spoiler
archer did experience a memory loss right after his summning. probably one of the reason why it didn't occur to him to kill shirou at first. but it has nothing to do with his summoning being rough; archer himself pointed out that there WAS a MISTAKE in the process.
I didn't quite get what you meant here, so here are my thoughts about Shirou.

Fate Shirou thinks his ideal is beautiful and that he will be able to realize it if he works hard. Even going as far as sacrificing his whole being in order to obtain the power to do so.
haa, did you just read a crude synopsis about fate shirou and posted it here? because fate shirou is not half simple as that. fate shirou pursued the ideal because he thinks it's beautiful; he made peace with himself (because he couldn't save those people caught in fire). not because of his guilt anymore. and he has a new reason for pursuing it while being reasonable (unlike what you said) : saber.

continue further than this and it'll be like what gil keeper said (sorry if I "mispronounced" your name, mate :P ) : a discussion full of speculations in where one speculator could never accept the other's speculation, and so on.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 4:11 pm

Raitei wrote:still continuing, are you? well then,
today you are my hero Raitei

not in the counter guardian sense of course ;)
(That would just be pretty painful to deal with..)

User avatar
Xamdou
DESU DESU!
Posts: 584
Joined: October 19th, 2008, 7:38 am
Location: The Ever Distant WC

Unread post by Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 4:13 pm

A clean K.O. 8)
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."

User avatar
NanatsuYa
Crack Addic!
Posts: 220
Joined: October 5th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Shadow Town

Unread post by NanatsuYa » December 31st, 2008, 4:34 pm

Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
<.<
► Show Spoiler
"Be sliced by the blades of Summer Snow, fragile thing..." - Nanaya Shiki.

Zensunni
Addict
Posts: 100
Joined: February 1st, 2008, 3:15 pm

Unread post by Zensunni » December 31st, 2008, 5:16 pm

He'd just bribe Rin with gold and jewels and move on to doing what ever the hell he wants. :P

spathi
Addict
Posts: 98
Joined: November 1st, 2008, 6:30 am
Location: Philippines

Unread post by spathi » December 31st, 2008, 6:18 pm

@raitei
just wanted to point out that archer knew about avalon, though I don't know if he ever used it or knows about its hax ability
it is however certain that he knows it belongs to saber and is called avalon (I doubt excalibur had plenty of lost super sheaths (don't know the plural word))

@nanatsuya
lol at harem route

User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 6:21 pm

spathi wrote:@raitei
just wanted to point out that archer knew about avalon, though I don't know if he ever used it or knows about its hax ability
it is however certain that he knows it belongs to saber and is called avalon (I doubt excalibur had plenty of lost super sheaths (don't know the plural word))

@nanatsuya
lol at harem route
yah.. if he knew about the sheath, then he could easily figure out the name, even if he didn't directly learn it
plus the guy has a mythological library of infinite knowledge on useless old artifacts

User avatar
Mazyrian
Crack Desu!
Posts: 259
Joined: January 4th, 2008, 8:49 pm

Unread post by Mazyrian » December 31st, 2008, 6:47 pm

Rikh wrote:Also the probability of Rin summoning a different Archer is probable, as there would definitely be some great confusion/paradox's in that...
If Archer in the past participated in the war with his future self there, it would be very improbable he would turn out the same way

umm im thinking how it should be explained...

Anyways, if Archer truly was summoned in the war in which Shiro took part in and then after became a heroic spirit, then its safe to say that the actions Emiya took would have to be exactly the same to prevent a time paradox (but then you have the throne of heroes thing...)
It's true that if Archer were summoned in his original timeline then future Shirou (that is, Archer) would have to do exactly the same as him when summoned there. But I don't think is hard for that to happen; as long as he acts as he would, he should be able to match Archer actions (who, presumably, acted as he would).
Also, that could be a war in which Archer and Shirou didn't interacted much, so Archer's presence would not have had much impact on Shirou's future, or even could have, involuntarily, helped him become Emiya (THAT would be a loop).
"I am the spider that set this web.
-Welcome to this wonderful killing chamber."

Kenzu
Addict
Posts: 79
Joined: November 15th, 2008, 2:34 pm

Unread post by Kenzu » January 1st, 2009, 5:03 pm

Xamdou wrote:A clean K.O. 8)
Not really.
Raitei wrote:still continuing, are you? well then,
Kenzu wrote:
► Show Spoiler
it is NOT known whether archer know of avalon or not. sure, he may know about its existence and ability, but what we can safely assume is he DOES NOT know about its details (true name, effect, etc, etc..) otherwise, he would have told shirou to give it back to saber instead of talking shit like "only emiya shirou can defeat the king of heroes. emiya shirou is his natural enemy... etc, etc..."
► Show Spoiler
oh, there is. do you not count the WHEN factor? do you always assume that he MUST learn about avalon DURING the grail war? not AFTER? of course, this is another speculation, but unless you can point out a canon source regarding on how he learnt about avalon's existence, your point, too, is a speculation.
Archer like being, Saber and Dark Sakura are the only ones who could beat Gilgamesh.
Without getting Avalon out of Shirou's body Saber would never defeat Gilgamesh.
sorry? hellooo, we're talking about shitloads possibility why gilgamesh was defeated (or was he? maybe he only resides in church all the whole time). one of the strongest and simplest explanation is ubw-like final duel. shirou vs gilgamesh. faker vs king of heroes. and thus answers another question on how did archer get those truckloads of sword recordings inside his own ubw.

hint : nobody knows exactly when archer first learnt to expand ubw.

► Show Spoiler
sorry? archer's words in fate largely contains hidden hope that saber would be freed. why? because he knew she would suffer from the same condition he had gone through. see, archer told saber, saber told shirou (she told him that "he would go down the path she went") , and shirou, who thinks saber is beautiful yet sad because of that fact, freed her at last.
► Show Spoiler
so it is people's speculation that archer's from the route aside from the original there in f/sn. let me say this : whenever you deal with something that doesn't exist, you must speculate. there's no use searching the canon materials and / or hoping for canon discussions since the canon tself said that "there's little, if no chance that shirou from the three f/sn routes will become archer"
About a lover. Yes, I do limit the Holy Grail War as the only time Shirou can get a partner. I doubt anyone would be able to fall for this guy other than the three heroines. Just look at how dull he was with Sakura around. Yeah, he could be with Sakura or Rin, but he's a guy that would rather die himself than lose a girl he loves. In Saber's case, losing her was right with his ideal.
...what? lol. shirou didn't free saber because of his ideal. it was directly stated that he consider saber's life endeavour is beautiful, and hence did not want to trample on it. it has nothing to do with ideals. nothing at all.
Making a contract with the world is something that Fate Shirou would do. Why are people denying it so strongly?
There is a reason he would do it, but can anyone give a reason why he wouldn't do it?
aha, this is another fallacy. like saying "saddam hussein has a weapon of mass destruction since people cannot prove otherwise". well then, let me ask you this : why would he do it? he already made peace with his past; he first underwent the superhero ideal he borrowed from kiritsugu because he felt guilty. "I would have been one of them if it wasn't for kiritsugu", that's what he thought. so he worked hard in order to "atone" his sins. but the church basement scene already proved that he himself realized that "no matter what, you cannot change the past, so get over with it already and look forward".
► Show Spoiler
arai didn't make those points without referring to canon source, good gracious. (honestly, do you think you can point out better than him?) those points are canon, and I'm sure of it. I even remember in either ubw or fate (my memory's a little vague, so I can'tpoint the exact quote) that archer once said (or implied) that he summoned saber and was unable to free her.

► Show Spoiler
hahaa, this is one of the most interesting speculation I've ever heard so far. not being an ass, but holy element makes you regenerate faster? what is this? holy light? paladin's ability? (heals 250 damage to target ally or hero and / or deal 250 damage to undead enemies)

holy element makes berserker unable to regenerate quickly? what do you think his body is made of? dark element? if so, his body would be black. pitch black. not lead coloured. :P


► Show Spoiler
the point at hand was projection magic. archer saw what shirou did and commented about it in front of shirou and saber. there's no thinking otherwise.

not unthinkable, but quite improbable. fate shirou already made peace with himself. he no longer "gokrazeehtosaveasmuchpeopleasIcan".
► Show Spoiler
archer did experience a memory loss right after his summning. probably one of the reason why it didn't occur to him to kill shirou at first. but it has nothing to do with his summoning being rough; archer himself pointed out that there WAS a MISTAKE in the process.
I didn't quite get what you meant here, so here are my thoughts about Shirou.

Fate Shirou thinks his ideal is beautiful and that he will be able to realize it if he works hard. Even going as far as sacrificing his whole being in order to obtain the power to do so.
haa, did you just read a crude synopsis about fate shirou and posted it here? because fate shirou is not half simple as that. fate shirou pursued the ideal because he thinks it's beautiful; he made peace with himself (because he couldn't save those people caught in fire). not because of his guilt anymore. and he has a new reason for pursuing it while being reasonable (unlike what you said) : saber.

continue further than this and it'll be like what gil keeper said (sorry if I "mispronounced" your name, mate :P ) : a discussion full of speculations in where one speculator could never accept the other's speculation, and so on.
OK, I see there is no point in pointing out and proving anything. Fanatics are fanatics and there's no changing them even
if you prove them wrong.

I'm not even going to bother quoting everything. It's tiring to post the same thing over and over again.

So here you go. Let me point it out your way.
► Show Spoiler

Post Reply