Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby samasamon » January 1st, 2009, 5:17 pm

There is no canon which shirou is archer.

>He may come from another rout.
>>If it should be one of three rout, fate was highest possibility.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 1st, 2009, 5:40 pm

Kenzu wrote:So here you go. Let me point it out your way.

Raitei, your points disprove nothing and prove nothing. They are simply worthless. For the discussion of
course, because people who don't allow themselves the thoughts of Archer being Fate Shirou are overjoyed
at the fact that someone denied the possibility, even if it doesn't make sense. You just childlishly don't
let yourself accept the possibility of Fate Shirou being Archer. Not because of something. Just BECAUSE.
You don't ask good questions nor give good points. Hell, I see you don't even bother to think about what
someone wrote. You simply deny.

Umm... Raitei is considering all the options... but he is only following facts, its you who is making the strange assumptions and sticking wholeheartedly to him

Kenzu wrote:Your points can be simply disproved by adding questions "like how", "like what" and similar after them.


You probably won't accept it anyway but I'll point out why Fate Shirou WOULD make a Contract with the World.
The simplest reason for doing it is "saving people from a disaster is something an ally of justice would do".
There. But you can't give ANY reasons why he wouldn't make the Contract, can you? You will just simply keep
denying he would make it.

Re-read the entire fate route please =|
Shiro did learn from his ideals upon saber, and would not follow the same path. Yah he thought her life was beautiful, but he knows that her path lead her down regret and pain. Also making peace in the chruch, Shiro Refused the help of the grail to save a large amount of people because he knew that the past is the past, and it is wrong to change it. Shiro in the future, would never accept help from the world with that kind of dedication, since it is the very same principle
Kenzu wrote:
I don't know how you read Fate if you can't figure out Shirou's feelings in this scenario. The first sentence
you wrote is a repeat of my point and the others are "BECAUSE" sentences that don't make any sense.

Fate Shirou IS simple in fact. OK, his actions had something to do with guilt and he did make peace with his
past. But Fate Shirou pursued his ideal because he thought it was natural for him to do so. Meeting Saber
made him think he's right even more. Saber's premonitory words had no effect on Shirou.
Saber did tell Shirou that "he would go down the path she went" and he actually did. Why? Because he never
realized the flaws of his ideal. Not until he became the Eirei Emiya and had everything pointed out. She also
said he would regret it and that happened too.

Why are you so hard struck on assuming Emiya is a product of fate shiro... here are reasons why he cant
Pretty much proven avalon is still in Archers body as it has the negative healing effects on his body from sabers inflicted wounds
Illya was not saved
Archer failed to save saber in his life, which is the biggest diversion from fate...
Archer lost an arm on "IMPLIED" projecting at the time... which honestly i dont remember happening in fate
Kenzu wrote:Shirou freed Saber because he didn't want to disgrace her. That's right. So she could remain a perfect hero,
that he admired. A perfect hero - that's his ideal. Not only saving people, but also the power to make it true.
He wanted to become someone like Saber.

he freed saber because he wanted her to be removed from the endless cycle of pain... It had nothing to do with him disgracing her or not, its just simple. He saw a girl who needed help, and that was reason enough to provide it. Yah he respects saber, but he knows that He and Saber both know that following Arturia's path in life will give shiro a dead end, and shiro has learned from that
Kenzu wrote:It's UBW Shirou that pusues the ideal because it's beautiful. Even if he had it deep inside him in Fate he
didn't realize anything on his own. Where's the point here? You even went as far as mentioning Saber as
a new reason and by doing that you agreed with me in a way. So did you or did you not get Shirou's feelings
in Fate? Your sentences are contradictory. what do you disagree with exactly?

Sorry but what does explaining UBW have to do with proving fate shiro is archer. It is even more universally accepted that UBW shiro will choose a path different from archer
Kenzu wrote:Yes, I did read a synopsis, but I can agree to it with my own words. I can think on my own, accept and adapt
others points od view in order to reach a satisfying conclusion. I try not to limit my thoughts, but strongly
support them with evidence until someone disproves it. Unlike a certain someone.
no you cant... your the only one rejected in-game provided canon proof.. Your sticking straight to your first opinion and defending it even though it goes against the facts. If you think you are correct, provide proof from the game or another legitimate source... which your completely rejecting btw
Kenzu wrote:Perhaps the "Holy" element isn't the best explanation but it still is SOMETHING, unlike your points.
It doesn't make you "regenerate faster" you RPG freak.
ok...
So your calling Raitei and RPG freak... when you are the one who is putting in RPG based information in a discussion that has nothing to do with it?
Good Show sir...
Kenzu wrote:and the real explanation provided by the screenshots proves more than your RPG based explanation... just for the record
Since a Holy object is inside someone for a long period of time it could be that the person absorbs some part of
the element. Like Shirou had the blueprint of Avalon inside him despite never seeing it.
And I did mention that Berserker's wounds from Saber's sword didn't heal despite costing him 2 lives. It was
Black Berserker from HF if you don't remember. His colors were black and red, not lead.
So perhaps it isn't about Archer's Avalon and whatnot but about the ability of Excalibur. Read: Doesn't allow
the healing of wounds done by any objects or magic. And don't come with Lancer's example in Fate/Zero here.
It's not Nasu's original work, even though it kicks ass. Besides that, Lancer got cut only slightly compared
to Archer - from arm down to waist.


There are too many details for this to cover, ill address the main ones...
Black Berserker should not be affiliated with any element foremost. If anything its the imaginary Number thingy...
His body became black and red because he was resummoned by Sakura... whom had attacks colored... black and red o.0
His body is infused with godhand, which coats him with a powerful shield. The resulting byproduct is some strange deformities on his body, and lead colored skin. Godhand provided in the age of the gods for hercules doing remarkable heroic tasks... i dont see that as a dark element in the least...

Also it was proven easily in fate that Berserkers wounds dont automatically regenerate completely. If somebody could provide a screenshot of the post Archer/vs berserker battle... that would be nice
its clearly stated that Berserkers wounds caused by archer would take a day or two to recover alone, and his instincts told him that if he were to fight saber, he should do it in full condition.
This proves that he doesnt regenerate UBER fast from any wounds, it was wounds inflicted by GARcher, who could easily be called an above average servant
(above average because he took down several lives of berserker before dying...)


Anyways back to the point... your acting a lot like UBW shiro right now... Even when proven wrong, you still follow your crazy idea(l)...
jk about that part...

but seriously consider all the true facts posted by others against how Fate Shiro is the only possibility to be Archer

With an infinite universe of parallel worlds (which is easily explained in HF and UBW) and alternate realities, There are plenty more paths to take for Emiya Shiro during the Holy Grail War than just following three... Archer can be the by-product of infinite possibilities, which is HEAVILY implied in UBW...

Good luck trying to prove your idea... although insulting others is truly not a good way to start getting your point across...
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Unread postby Inverted » January 1st, 2009, 6:21 pm

Rikh wrote:Also it was proven easily in fate that Berserkers wounds dont automatically regenerate completely. If somebody could provide a screenshot of the post Archer/vs berserker battle... that would be nice
its clearly stated that Berserkers wounds caused by archer would take a day or two to recover alone, and his instincts told him that if he were to fight saber, he should do it in full condition.
This proves that he doesnt regenerate UBER fast from any wounds, it was wounds inflicted by GARcher, who could easily be called an above average servant
(above average because he took down several lives of berserker before dying...)


Here you go
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Unread postby Rikh » January 1st, 2009, 11:51 pm

Inverted wrote:
Rikh wrote:Also it was proven easily in fate that Berserkers wounds dont automatically regenerate completely. If somebody could provide a screenshot of the post Archer/vs berserker battle... that would be nice
its clearly stated that Berserkers wounds caused by archer would take a day or two to recover alone, and his instincts told him that if he were to fight saber, he should do it in full condition.
This proves that he doesnt regenerate UBER fast from any wounds, it was wounds inflicted by GARcher, who could easily be called an above average servant
(above average because he took down several lives of berserker before dying...)


Here you go

Thanks :)
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Unread postby Raitei » January 2nd, 2009, 1:05 am

Kenzu wrote:OK, I see there is no point in pointing out and proving anything. Fanatics are fanatics and there's no changing them even if you prove them wrong.
hahaa, this is the funniest thing I have ever heard from this person. the facts, the details, and other people have all go against you. and even arai who I must say, have a plenty of nasuverse knowledge compared to you, pointed out these factual things in order and in referrence to the canon source. everyone else WHO PLAYED THE GAME agreed with him.

(heck, fuyuki was written based on discussion by people who ACTUALLY played the game. not just arai's own opinion himself.)

and since it seems to piss you off, I'll say this : WHO ARE YOU COMPARED TO HIM? your knowledge concerning nasuverse isn't even one millionth of his. ask everyone in mm, or post a similar thread in beast's lair and you'll get the very same answer. VERY. SAME. ANSWER. (actually, I'd like to see you post this in bl and got le baiken'd)

I'm not even going to bother quoting everything. It's tiring to post the same thing over and over again.
and so I won't. everyone here agrees that shirou isn't a product of either one of those three routes. canon sources even said so. the wiki also said so. fuyuki, type-moon wiki, wikipedia (lol). insist on your utterly baseless points, I don't care. you already have the whole world against you now. yeah, the whole world. do I see anyone here that agrees with any point you made?

...
....
.....

no, I don't see any. good luck kid.

I see rikh is still patient enough to deal with you, but let's see if he can soften that rock brain of yours. that said, go play the game. don't just read summaries; you make baseless assumptions. (heck, even the summary writer would go against you too if s/he saw these point)

@rikh : in the case he still doesn't wake up from your explanation, let's just leave him be, shall we? I see no point in convincing a childish person (who called other people childish himself) who's only fixated in one point of view to open up his mind. it's like... trying to change a communist's pattern of thinking.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
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Unread postby Rikh » January 2nd, 2009, 2:50 am

I personally would like to say that Archer is actually derived from the scrapped Taiga route in FSN

Here is a screenshot from the route. This proves Archer is Taiga route Shiro
(Warning very explicit and spoiling images below)


So as you can see clearly... there is only one shiro capable of matching the Gar Quotient of Archer... And that is Taiga shiro
(btw this is a screen from day 2 of the game... you wont believe the GAR stuff he does by day 15)
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Unread postby that one guy » January 2nd, 2009, 4:23 am

There is no Day 15.
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Unread postby Xamdou » January 2nd, 2009, 7:01 am

that one guy wrote:There is no Day 15.

there is day 15 from Taiga route , look down below
where she asked Shirou to marry her , its day 15 >_<


Here you go , Taiga Route to refresh the atmosphere (too bad she is not holy grail >_<) :D



The End of Taiga Route
Skipped some scenes so that it would not get removed :D
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Message » January 2nd, 2009, 9:53 am

Xamdou wrote:Skipped some scenes so that it would not get removed :D

Sorry honey, but it doesn't work that way. Xamdou, by posting (an edited version of) a full doujin you are in breach of the warez rule. Consider this an official warning. I left three pages in because you were trying to make a point with them.
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Unread postby Xamdou » January 2nd, 2009, 10:12 am

sorry >_<
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Kenzu » January 7th, 2009, 11:42 am

samasamon wrote:There is no canon which shirou is archer.

>He may come from another rout.
>>If it should be one of three rout, fate was highest possibility.


Yeah, personally I'm the supporter of "Fate reality leads Shirou to becoming Archer" theory. There are
also people who think of another untold scenario. That's okay I guess. What I learned is that a good
discussion between the two is impossible and will only lead to dumb arguments and childish posts. That's
pointless. That's the reason I didn't bother reading Raitei and Rikh's posts on the third page because I know
what they had to say in general anyway.

Anyway...

I wanted to mention Berserker's regenerative abilities and why I think a direct cut from Saber's sword may not
allow healing.
In Fate Berserker received 6 mortal wounds from Archer. It doesn't necessarily mean he died six times.
The first and the third didn't have to be fatal, so he wouldn't have to use 6 lives to regenerate. Just 4.
He didn't have enough time to do heal everything, so this might have lead to leaving his torso and left hand
more vulnerable. But we CAN assume that the creator just counted wrong later. Everyone assumed that, including
me and it's probably right too.

Anyhow... It was said that it would take him three days to recover fully from those six wounds.

In Heaven's Feel Berserker dies once due to the slash of Black Saber and for the second time
because of her Noble Phantasm. So he needed to regenerate two lives.
That happened on the 10th day. Shirou killed Berserker ten times on the 15th day. Berserker should have had more
than enough time to regenerate from anything. The fact that he had enormous amounts of mana to get energy
from doesn't even need to be mentioned. Still, the wound he received from Saber was there, yet the wound
done by her Noble Phantasm was not.

That would lead to assuming that a direct cut by Excalibur disables any healing or restricts it a lot.
That's my opinion about that.

One more thing. Rin says that Saber and Archer must have had some sort of connection while being angry at
his wound. It could refer to what was said in UBW - that Archer was surprised by the appearence of
Saber and let his guard down and not the fact that he couldn't regenerate well from a wound dealt by Excalibur.
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Unread postby Xamdou » January 7th, 2009, 12:27 pm

I don't understand your theory anymore -_-
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby that one guy » January 7th, 2009, 12:50 pm

He can't restore lives lost by healing. If they're gone, they're gone.
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Unread postby Kenzu » January 7th, 2009, 2:25 pm

That's right. The thing is how many lives he must use to restore certain wounds and the amount of time needed. We should also count the effectivity of healing in that time.

Xamdou wrote:I don't understand your theory anymore -_-


Right now it's about Saber's blade dealing wounds that don't heal well. The examples are Berserker and Archer. It could also negate the possibility of Avalon being still inside Archer.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 7th, 2009, 2:45 pm

Riight, so now I have come out from lurking after a while, and here's my first post. Nice to meet everybody here. :)

First, regarding God Hand.
fuyuki wrote:God Hand - The Twelve Trials
The normal ability is canceling any damage of B or below. Noble Phantasm ability is an extra 11 lives (yes 11 lives, not 12, meaning he has to be killed a total of twelve times). It's effectively an armor coating the body. The reason why Berserker looks grey is because of the God Hand. A blessing or rather a curse the gods gave to Hercules (hence, it isn't the materialized interpretation of his trials, it's an actual gift bestowed by the gods). Ever since Hercules gained this, no one has been able to do any damage to him. Confirmed that God Hand will actually develop resistance to damage taken once. The game hints that the lives actually regenerate. Seriously. Also see Conceptual Armament entry on God Hand.


Hence we can accept why Saber and friends actually destroyed 14 of Berserker's life?

Also, regarding Excalibur dealing "unhealable" wounds. That's Gae Bolg, peeps. Geez, please don't go and make things up yourself; the in-game descriptions and actual storyline never mentioned that. :(
If that's the case, Archer should have mentioned something about Excalibur bearing some curse, but he didn't. All we can guess is that blow from Saber is fatal enough that it took Archer some time to recover.

In Heaven's Feel Berserker dies once due to the slash of Black Saber and for the second time
because of her Noble Phantasm. So he needed to regenerate two lives.
That happened on the 10th day. Shirou killed Berserker ten times on the 15th day. Berserker should have had more
than enough time to regenerate from anything. The fact that he had enormous amounts of mana to get energy
from doesn't even need to be mentioned. Still, the wound he received from Saber was there, yet the wound
done by her Noble Phantasm was not.
Well we don't know for sure how many lives did Black Saber eliminate from Berserker in Heaven's Feel. Also, thinking that Nine Lives managed to wipe out so many lives in one blow doesn't just seem right; Shirou strongly hinted that the attack was not that strong.

Next, entry about Excalibur :

fuyuki wrote:Excalibur - Sword of Promised Victory
The sword of light.

A divine construction, forged by the planet. The pinnacle of holy swords. The stored wishes of mankind that had become crystallized and tempered within the planet. It had been guarded by the extensions of the planet (High Spirits/fairies) but had passed briefly into the hands of a King Arthur. Transforms the user's Prana into light, and augments the kinetic force by convergence and acceleration. A holy sword that allows for the use of Divine Spirit level thaumaturgy. Also, as its transforming the user's own Prana, the alignment of the sword will also change based on that, hence Black Excalibur's appearance
Black Excalibur, maybe. But certainly not the normal Excalibur. Two different things.
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Unread postby serialies » January 7th, 2009, 4:45 pm

This thread is hilarious.

i'm pretty sure Nasu said something along the lines of "Archer =! any of the routes", but this is just from memory, probably need to dig around to find the original comment, so take this with a grain of salt.
apart from that, i'm gonna avoid "ARCHER IS THIS AND THAT" with a 10 foot pole and a toothpick (for now atleast)

also, @ "excalibur fucks up wounds"
i don't recall a scenario where a servant recovers "quickly" from critical/severe wounds (NP's and magtastical black grail healing aside), so i'm not understanding why there is an issue of healing speed in the first place.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 7th, 2009, 11:00 pm

Kenzu wrote:What I learned is that a good
discussion between the two is impossible and will only lead to dumb arguments and childish posts. That's
pointless. That's the reason I didn't bother reading Raitei and Rikh's posts on the third page because I know
what they had to say in general anyway.


Thanks man, i love being called Childish... :?

anyways, at least read our posts. Even though they disagree with your opinion, they are backed up by facts from the game, and legitimate sources.

I mean, the possibility of Fate shiro becoming archer is indeed possible... but you would be better off to argue that through information presented in the game instead of creating your own

also on to the Berserker thing. I was pointing out the fact that Excalibur does not inflict strange wounds on people. The only weapons that can inflict wounds that will not heal are things that are either cursed, poisoned, or just have a NP ability revolving around it

It's hinted very strongly that Archer still has Avalon. The fact the wound he recieved from saber took longer to regenerate than normal could indeed relate to avalon in his body. Shiro who had avalon in his body at the time, being attacked by saber also had a very slow healing wound. Its mainly stating that even though Avalon was a primary aid when Saber was partnered with Shiro, it still had a minute effect on his body withoutg her... possibly his healing of cuts for example would be slightly faster than the average person.

Anyways directly to the point. Archer damaged Berserker the exact same way Saber did, so it proves that Excalibur was not the specific cause of the non-instantaneous regeneration.

Saber owned Avalon in her lifetime, and her attachment through it, whether it be contract or actual contact affects its powers. Its obvious to say that if saber directly intended to kill a person who owns her own sheath, Avalon would be less likely to heal the occupier. Thats all that is directly hinted in the game, and all im stating

Also i really dont know what your getting into about how many times berserker dies and stuff... i dont have much of a clue how this relates to fate shiro being archer

Well anyways, im not being immature dude, if you can provide facts to back up your speculation instead of denying facts portrayed in the game, then i will easily admit defeat to you on Archers real persona
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Unread postby Shourai » January 7th, 2009, 11:05 pm

serialies wrote:also, @ "excalibur fucks up wounds"
i don't recall a scenario where a servant recovers "quickly" from critical/severe wounds (NP's and magtastical black grail healing aside), so i'm not understanding why there is an issue of healing speed in the first place.
The exception being Saber; with Prana Burst, she can heal several times faster than your average Servant. Of course, that requires additional prana upkeep.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 8th, 2009, 1:35 am

i a sense.... Saber's Overpowered...

the only actual match for her is either Gilgamesh or Berserker... but its proven in UBW she can own Garzerker on a fight in the right situations
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Unread postby Xamdou » January 8th, 2009, 11:04 am

Rikh wrote:i a sense.... Saber's Overpowered...

the only actual match for her is either Gilgamesh or Berserker... but its proven in UBW she can own Garzerker on a fight in the right situations
Well , she can be easily defeated if she was attacked while she is having a great ero ero time with Shirou :wink:
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In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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