Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

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Unread postby Atriel » December 30th, 2008, 6:10 pm

What i don't get is why would the same Archer be summoned. It's like they are summoning an heroic spirit from another timeline.

Then what comes after that, is what doesn't get in for me: This is saying that it is possible to summon a spirit that is from another timeline, and maybe in the actual timeline (when he is summoned), said spirit didn't make it to spirit state or whatever you call it.

Uhhh... maybe that was messed up. Here:

Timeline A:
Person A lives>Person A becomes Spirit A> Spirit A can be summoned at any time. (Like how Archer was summoned before Shirou became a Spirit)

Timeline B:
Same Person A lives>Person A died in an accident as a 5 years old kid> Spirit A from timline A is summoned.

But then, how would Spirit A be summoned into timeline B if no one knew of him? Does the end of time (that thing where the spirits go <_<) works for every possible timeline? And if that's so, wouldn't there be a shitload of spirits?

Just asking :P
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Unread postby spathi » December 30th, 2008, 6:20 pm

Atriel wrote:What i don't get is why would the same Archer be summoned. It's like they are summoning an heroic spirit from another timeline.

Then what comes after that, is what doesn't get in for me: This is saying that it is possible to summon a spirit that is from another timeline, and maybe in the actual timeline (when he is summoned), said spirit didn't make it to spirit state or whatever you call it.

Uhhh... maybe that was messed up. Here:

Timeline A:
Person A lives>Person A becomes Spirit A> Spirit A can be summoned at any time. (Like how Archer was summoned before Shirou became a Spirit)

Timeline B:
Same Person A lives>Person A died in an accident as a 5 years old kid> Spirit A from timline A is summoned.

But then, how would Spirit A be summoned into timeline B if no one knew of him? Does the end of time (that thing where the spirits go <_<) works for every possible timeline? And if that's so, wouldn't there be a shitload of spirits?

Just asking :P


they are removed from the normal timeline and placed somewhere time doesn't matter for them
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Unread postby Mazyrian » December 30th, 2008, 11:57 pm

Inverted wrote:Possibly a product of a timeline where Rin's Servant was a different Archer

No, Rin's Archer was always the hero Emiya.

Arai mentions possibly. He is working on the principle that every loop needs its beginning.I agree.


I don't agree; I don't think a loop necessarily has to have a start (it is, after all, a loop), and the Servants are summoned from outside time, so Archer could be summoned even in his original timeline.
Also, the game says that catalysts are very important in determining the summoned Servant (although it also says that Servants are summoned according to how similar are to their Masters), and Rin only has the catalyst for Archer, so I find unlikely she could summon any other Servant (I think somewhere in fuyuki this is also said).
It's clear though, I think, that he is not from any of the game's timelines (what about HF bad end when Shirou becomes a superhero? He didn't save Saber there, although on second thought he never even learns that she needed saving)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 31st, 2008, 4:24 am

See? Exactly, after we depleted the concrete evidence, everything else becomes personal speculation, and no one is willing to accept another person's speculation.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:19 am

Anywho... Archer is basically the by product of a screwed over shiro

He isnt a full fledged product of any of the routes, because some facts do not add up
(also the avalon never removed comment was almost perfectly justified by a previous post and screenshot)
Archer was a different shiro, the Shiro that became archer is full speculation and can be interpreted as any see how

Also the probability of Rin summoning a different Archer is probable, as there would definitely be some great confusion/paradox's in that...
If Archer in the past participated in the war with his future self there, it would be very improbable he would turn out the same way

umm im thinking how it should be explained...

Anyways, if Archer truly was summoned in the war in which Shiro took part in and then after became a heroic spirit, then its safe to say that the actions Emiya took would have to be exactly the same to prevent a time paradox (but then you have the throne of heroes thing...)

Anyways, if there was a possible Shiro that became a heroic spirit through a contract with the world, then there must be infinite Shiro's that became Heroic Spirt Emiya's since they are all the product of a different universe each
(also its clearly stated that in HF Tohsaka was able to draw energy from alternate similar dimensions with Zelretch... so this theory is possible. Also this explains Saber being a girl)
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 5:22 am

Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D
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In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:24 am

Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D


Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 5:30 am

Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D


Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
Kotomine then might not have to die , Karen will have a daddy , Bazett will not have her arm cut off , Avenger will not appear after 5th war , everyone will have a happy ending (or might Gil might keep trying to steal Saber) , omg , Gil might rock so much :shock:
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 5:32 am

Xamdou wrote:
Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D


Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants
Kotomine then might not have to die , Karen will have a daddy , Bazett will not have her arm cut off , Avenger will not appear after 5th war , everyone will have a happy ending (or might Gil might keep trying to steal Saber) , omg , Gil might rock so much :shock:


lets not forget that shiro can save having his little 'ideal' fight because he will never become a heroic spirit. A somewhat sad ending for the opportunist, but still overall everybody actually lives

Caster and Kuzuki still die tho...
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Unread postby Kenzu » December 31st, 2008, 2:13 pm

Here are some more of my thoughts about everything.

Rikh wrote:Well believe it or not, there are other ways to find out he has the sheath instead of hearing it from saber...

Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used


I don't think there would be other ways for Shirou to learn about Saber's sheath. He knew about the healing but only in Fate he got the reason. Besides, healing effect got weak after the contract ended. Even if he had a blueprint, he would need a trigger to use it like when fighting Gil.

Archer like being, Saber and Dark Sakura are the only ones who could beat Gilgamesh.
Without getting Avalon out of Shirou's body Saber would never defeat Gilgamesh.


Rikh wrote:Umm well its inevitable that saber would be freed one day. No matter what, he contract with the grail will always be destroyed when the grail is destroyed. Saber also can be summoned an infinite amount of times until she achieves her goal. There is no way saber cannot be freed, it is inevitable to happen. Archer never freed saber, he just knew he failed at doing it, but knew it was not impossible


I don't know why you think it's inevitable that she'll be freed. Her wish is to disappear, so SOMEONE has to free her. Archer must have known who, if he could say so. It could be that he said "one day" or "eventually" because he didn't know when Saber would be summoned to the Fate scenario.


Rikh wrote:its never stated archer is from any of the routes in the game... All we know is that archer was unable to save Illya, which is most likely a route similar to Heavens Feel where Illya was the main character. This would also explain his knowledge of the Angra Mainyu incarnations that appear several times


Yeah, it is never stated which route Archer is from. But it was made like that so it could be discussed.
There is no route where Ilya is the main character. Deal with it. No matter how much you want it to exist, it just isn't real. If it were to be, then it would be in the original game as a route or an extra.
Archer didn't have the knowledge about Angra Manyu. As a Guardian he fought in many different ages and hells, so he could have fought monsters similar to it.


Rikh wrote:if he had a sexual relationship with saber, the odds are he might have been able to 'save' her. Saber disappeared early on in life, and his lover is just speculation. It would be safe to say that archer has a possibility of living with Rin in the future, but that in itself is a small possibility. The thing is that he could possibly have a lover that was not even mentioned in the game... Your limiting your thoughts to only information provided in a few days time... shiro can live a life after the holy grail war u know


About a lover. Yes, I do limit the Holy Grail War as the only time Shirou can get a partner. I doubt anyone would be able to fall for this guy other than the three heroines. Just look at how dull he was with Sakura around. Yeah, he could be with Sakura or Rin, but he's a guy that would rather die himself than lose a girl he loves. In Saber's case, losing her was right with his ideal.

Making a contract with the world is something that Fate Shirou would do. Why are people denying it so strongly?
There is a reason he would do it, but can anyone give a reason why he wouldn't do it?


Rikh wrote:im not even fully quoting this...
Archer made a contract with the world to achieve a small miracle.. that is true. However, it has nothing to do with it being fate shiro. All we know is that Archer followed his ideal to the point where it killed him in life. I mean seriously, yes it is possible for Fate shiro to be the product of that wish, but it is also possible it is not. Honestly archer cannot be fate shiro, as Fate shiro saved saber, saved (erm protected...) Illya... never lost an arm during the war... had avalon removed, etc..


So you suggest that if Archer saved Saber he is Fate Shirou and if he didn't he's a byproduct with Avalon inside him. It's OK, but after some thinking, there is no reason why Archer wouldn't have been able to free Saber. The reason he could is already mentioned. And if he did, then Avalon MUST have been removed in order to defeat Gilgamesh.
Also making a contract with the World has everything to do with Fate Shirou. It has nothing to do with HF Shirou, if you want to use words like "nothing to do" or "can't be".

It is never said that Archer lost an arm during the War. Reasons that he could save Saber are already mentioned and protecting Ilya is also done well in Fate scenario. Mentioned that too.


A bit more about Avalon and it's removal.

Mr Inverted, you really stunned me with those screens Sir. I finally had something to think about. It took me a some time too. I like it when people give accurate evidence that can justify their point of view. There's finally something to work with.

Okay, let's get to it.

It can be easily concluded that Saber's sword has a "Holy" element and it works very well against people who were implanted with Avalon. It might be that it works just as well on any other things, as Berserker didn't regenerate well in HF after being slashed.
Then, there's also Rin's conclusion about a connection. Let's say, that the sheath won't heal the damage caused by Holy weapons or at least of the Holy sword it keeps. Excalibur is the most Holy sword, so it can easily slash through any object or person with the "Holy" element.
It isn't necessary for Archer to have Avalon inside him at that time. He was Shirou, so he had Avalon inside him for ten years. His body could have adapted the "Holy" element of the sheath. That way Avalon would become a double edged sword. It saved Shirou, but also made him especially vulnerable to Excalibur.


Inverted wrote:Fate Shirou's first projection was Calibrun and he was perfectly alright. Heck he even carried Illya in his arms.


About the arm.

Archer said NEW magic. Not projection magic. I read that too before posting. Yeah, his assessment does kind of sound like it was projection. If we are to agree it was that, then we can suggest that it could have been his first projection of something else than a sword f.e. a shield.

He could recover without Avalon. It didn't do much without Saber anyway. His doctor would be Rin. In Fate scenario Shirou would probably ask her for some lessons after the War, in order to get closer to becoming an ally of justice. It is not unthinkable.

But the line "I had one of my arms taken away when I did it for the first time" suddenly made me think about HF Shirou for a sec. Archer did lose his arm then and used a new magic to transplant it to Shirou.
But I guess it's not that. He didn't just lose his arm, he DIED then. So it had to be something else.

If there are many parallel worlds but only one Throne of Heroes, then for me Archer's summoning order is:
HF-UBW-Fate


Okay, back to the point.


About Archer's memories. Maybe it is that he is a damn good liar, but then again Shirou never wasn't. Heck, Shirou had a hard time with not revealing too much. Rin always got everytihg out of him somehow.

We can also assume that his memories returned after a few days but he didn't mention anything because Rin wouldn't allow him to do anything. There are amnesia cases where memories return after a few days. His summoning WAS pretty rough.


Inverted wrote:As for Fate Shirou , he may not know as much as UBW Shirou, he came to know what being Superhero in the kotomine church.


I didn't quite get what you meant here, so here are my thoughts about Shirou.

Fate Shirou thinks his ideal is beautiful and that he will be able to realize it if he works hard. Even going as far as sacrificing his whole being in order to obtain the power to do so.

UBW Shirou also thinks the ideal is beautiful but he knows it's impossible to realize it, no matter how much power one has. That's why he will work hard to get close to it, knowing he won't be able to realize it.
It's kind of like the thing when he was doing a high jump.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 3:46 pm

Kenzu wrote:Here are some more of my thoughts about everything.


ugh i give up... your limiting Archer to only the three routes presented in the game
It was already proven in UBW that Archer came from a different time-line than Shiro. It can be assumed that EMIYA's past is different from Shiro's past. They are the same person, but different people.

You cant just throw in something like a "holy" Element into the game, there is nothing that has ever mentioned it in the least. The fact is that since Avalon belonged to Saber, obviously it would have different effects when dealing with damage caused by saber. Archer and Shiro recieved longer lasting wounds from saber because it is heavily implied that Avalon is still in both of their bodies.

Maybe this is why Archer could not save saber, if he was useless in his past, and Saber did not withdraw Avalon, she might have died against gilgamesh while shiro destroyed the grail.

Also i repeat, there is no way Saber cannot be saved.
Her contract is with the Grail alone. If the grail is destroyed, so is her contract. No matter what route shiro follows, if he destroys the grail, then the contract is over. Also proven by GARcher, a heroic spirit may be summoned into alternate timelines (which was the whole games timeline...) IF sabers contract still did not end by the end of the war after the grail was destroyed, she could be summoned infinite times into parallel worlds or different times.

And since the throne of heroes is removed from time, once she completes her contract one time, then she will not have to achieve the grail anymore. And IF archer did save saber, then she would not ever be summoned even into an alternate timeline again because her contract is now gone with the world.
'

Proving Archer could not have saved saber. If he had, Saber would have not appeared again in HF 4
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Unread postby Raitei » December 31st, 2008, 3:56 pm

still continuing, are you? well then,

Kenzu wrote:
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used
it is NOT known whether archer know of avalon or not. sure, he may know about its existence and ability, but what we can safely assume is he DOES NOT know about its details (true name, effect, etc, etc..) otherwise, he would have told shirou to give it back to saber instead of talking shit like "only emiya shirou can defeat the king of heroes. emiya shirou is his natural enemy... etc, etc..."

I don't think there would be other ways for Shirou to learn about Saber's sheath. He knew about the healing but only in Fate he got the reason. Besides, healing effect got weak after the contract ended. Even if he had a blueprint, he would need a trigger to use it like when fighting Gil.
oh, there is. do you not count the WHEN factor? do you always assume that he MUST learn about avalon DURING the grail war? not AFTER? of course, this is another speculation, but unless you can point out a canon source regarding on how he learnt about avalon's existence, your point, too, is a speculation.

Archer like being, Saber and Dark Sakura are the only ones who could beat Gilgamesh.
Without getting Avalon out of Shirou's body Saber would never defeat Gilgamesh.
sorry? hellooo, we're talking about shitloads possibility why gilgamesh was defeated (or was he? maybe he only resides in church all the whole time). one of the strongest and simplest explanation is ubw-like final duel. shirou vs gilgamesh. faker vs king of heroes. and thus answers another question on how did archer get those truckloads of sword recordings inside his own ubw.

hint : nobody knows exactly when archer first learnt to expand ubw.


I don't know why you think it's inevitable that she'll be freed. Her wish is to disappear, so SOMEONE has to free her. Archer must have known who, if he could say so. It could be that he said "one day" or "eventually" because he didn't know when Saber would be summoned to the Fate scenario.
sorry? archer's words in fate largely contains hidden hope that saber would be freed. why? because he knew she would suffer from the same condition he had gone through. see, archer told saber, saber told shirou (she told him that "he would go down the path she went") , and shirou, who thinks saber is beautiful yet sad because of that fact, freed her at last.

Yeah, it is never stated which route Archer is from. But it was made like that so it could be discussed.
There is no route where Ilya is the main character. Deal with it. No matter how much you want it to exist, it just isn't real. If it were to be, then it would be in the original game as a route or an extra.
Archer didn't have the knowledge about Angra Manyu. As a Guardian he fought in many different ages and hells, so he could have fought monsters similar to it.
so it is people's speculation that archer's from the route aside from the original there in f/sn. let me say this : whenever you deal with something that doesn't exist, you must speculate. there's no use searching the canon materials and / or hoping for canon discussions since the canon tself said that "there's little, if no chance that shirou from the three f/sn routes will become archer"

About a lover. Yes, I do limit the Holy Grail War as the only time Shirou can get a partner. I doubt anyone would be able to fall for this guy other than the three heroines. Just look at how dull he was with Sakura around. Yeah, he could be with Sakura or Rin, but he's a guy that would rather die himself than lose a girl he loves. In Saber's case, losing her was right with his ideal.
...what? lol. shirou didn't free saber because of his ideal. it was directly stated that he consider saber's life endeavour is beautiful, and hence did not want to trample on it. it has nothing to do with ideals. nothing at all.

Making a contract with the world is something that Fate Shirou would do. Why are people denying it so strongly?
There is a reason he would do it, but can anyone give a reason why he wouldn't do it?
aha, this is another fallacy. like saying "saddam hussein has a weapon of mass destruction since people cannot prove otherwise". well then, let me ask you this : why would he do it? he already made peace with his past; he first underwent the superhero ideal he borrowed from kiritsugu because he felt guilty. "I would have been one of them if it wasn't for kiritsugu", that's what he thought. so he worked hard in order to "atone" his sins. but the church basement scene already proved that he himself realized that "no matter what, you cannot change the past, so get over with it already and look forward".

So you suggest that if Archer saved Saber he is Fate Shirou and if he didn't he's a byproduct with Avalon inside him. It's OK, but after some thinking, there is no reason why Archer wouldn't have been able to free Saber. The reason he could is already mentioned. And if he did, then Avalon MUST have been removed in order to defeat Gilgamesh.
Also making a contract with the World has everything to do with Fate Shirou. It has nothing to do with HF Shirou, if you want to use words like "nothing to do" or "can't be".
arai didn't make those points without referring to canon source, good gracious. (honestly, do you think you can point out better than him?) those points are canon, and I'm sure of it. I even remember in either ubw or fate (my memory's a little vague, so I can'tpoint the exact quote) that archer once said (or implied) that he summoned saber and was unable to free her.


Okay, let's get to it.

It can be easily concluded that Saber's sword has a "Holy" element and it works very well against people who were implanted with Avalon. It might be that it works just as well on any other things, as Berserker didn't regenerate well in HF after being slashed.
Then, there's also Rin's conclusion about a connection. Let's say, that the sheath won't heal the damage caused by Holy weapons or at least of the Holy sword it keeps. Excalibur is the most Holy sword, so it can easily slash through any object or person with the "Holy" element.
It isn't necessary for Archer to have Avalon inside him at that time. He was Shirou, so he had Avalon inside him for ten years. His body could have adapted the "Holy" element of the sheath. That way Avalon would become a double edged sword. It saved Shirou, but also made him especially vulnerable to Excalibur.
hahaa, this is one of the most interesting speculation I've ever heard so far. not being an ass, but holy element makes you regenerate faster? what is this? holy light? paladin's ability? (heals 250 damage to target ally or hero and / or deal 250 damage to undead enemies)

holy element makes berserker unable to regenerate quickly? what do you think his body is made of? dark element? if so, his body would be black. pitch black. not lead coloured. :P



About the arm.

Archer said NEW magic. Not projection magic. I read that too before posting. Yeah, his assessment does kind of sound like it was projection. If we are to agree it was that, then we can suggest that it could have been his first projection of something else than a sword f.e. a shield.

He could recover without Avalon. It didn't do much without Saber anyway. His doctor would be Rin. In Fate scenario Shirou would probably ask her for some lessons after the War, in order to get closer to becoming an ally of justice. It is not unthinkable.
the point at hand was projection magic. archer saw what shirou did and commented about it in front of shirou and saber. there's no thinking otherwise.

not unthinkable, but quite improbable. fate shirou already made peace with himself. he no longer "gokrazeehtosaveasmuchpeopleasIcan".

Okay, back to the point.

About Archer's memories. Maybe it is that he is a damn good liar, but then again Shirou never wasn't. Heck, Shirou had a hard time with not revealing too much. Rin always got everytihg out of him somehow.

We can also assume that his memories returned after a few days but he didn't mention anything because Rin wouldn't allow him to do anything. There are amnesia cases where memories return after a few days. His summoning WAS pretty rough.
archer did experience a memory loss right after his summning. probably one of the reason why it didn't occur to him to kill shirou at first. but it has nothing to do with his summoning being rough; archer himself pointed out that there WAS a MISTAKE in the process.

I didn't quite get what you meant here, so here are my thoughts about Shirou.

Fate Shirou thinks his ideal is beautiful and that he will be able to realize it if he works hard. Even going as far as sacrificing his whole being in order to obtain the power to do so.
haa, did you just read a crude synopsis about fate shirou and posted it here? because fate shirou is not half simple as that. fate shirou pursued the ideal because he thinks it's beautiful; he made peace with himself (because he couldn't save those people caught in fire). not because of his guilt anymore. and he has a new reason for pursuing it while being reasonable (unlike what you said) : saber.

continue further than this and it'll be like what gil keeper said (sorry if I "mispronounced" your name, mate :P ) : a discussion full of speculations in where one speculator could never accept the other's speculation, and so on.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 4:11 pm

Raitei wrote:still continuing, are you? well then,


today you are my hero Raitei

not in the counter guardian sense of course ;)
(That would just be pretty painful to deal with..)
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 31st, 2008, 4:13 pm

A clean K.O. 8)
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby NanatsuYa » December 31st, 2008, 4:34 pm

Rikh wrote:
Xamdou wrote:Imagine that the Archer Rin summoned is Gil (i said IMAGINE,dun tell me the possibility , just IMAGINE) :D


Their teamwork with Shiro and Saber would have been absolute since the beginning then :roll:

actually Rin Summoning gil might have lead to a lot of good ends... Plus her strength with the command spells would pwn gilgamesh's rants

<.<
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Unread postby Zensunni » December 31st, 2008, 5:16 pm

He'd just bribe Rin with gold and jewels and move on to doing what ever the hell he wants. :P
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Unread postby spathi » December 31st, 2008, 6:18 pm

@raitei
just wanted to point out that archer knew about avalon, though I don't know if he ever used it or knows about its hax ability
it is however certain that he knows it belongs to saber and is called avalon (I doubt excalibur had plenty of lost super sheaths (don't know the plural word))

@nanatsuya
lol at harem route
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Unread postby Rikh » December 31st, 2008, 6:21 pm

spathi wrote:@raitei
just wanted to point out that archer knew about avalon, though I don't know if he ever used it or knows about its hax ability
it is however certain that he knows it belongs to saber and is called avalon (I doubt excalibur had plenty of lost super sheaths (don't know the plural word))

@nanatsuya
lol at harem route


yah.. if he knew about the sheath, then he could easily figure out the name, even if he didn't directly learn it
plus the guy has a mythological library of infinite knowledge on useless old artifacts
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Unread postby Mazyrian » December 31st, 2008, 6:47 pm

Rikh wrote:Also the probability of Rin summoning a different Archer is probable, as there would definitely be some great confusion/paradox's in that...
If Archer in the past participated in the war with his future self there, it would be very improbable he would turn out the same way

umm im thinking how it should be explained...

Anyways, if Archer truly was summoned in the war in which Shiro took part in and then after became a heroic spirit, then its safe to say that the actions Emiya took would have to be exactly the same to prevent a time paradox (but then you have the throne of heroes thing...)


It's true that if Archer were summoned in his original timeline then future Shirou (that is, Archer) would have to do exactly the same as him when summoned there. But I don't think is hard for that to happen; as long as he acts as he would, he should be able to match Archer actions (who, presumably, acted as he would).
Also, that could be a war in which Archer and Shirou didn't interacted much, so Archer's presence would not have had much impact on Shirou's future, or even could have, involuntarily, helped him become Emiya (THAT would be a loop).
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Unread postby Kenzu » January 1st, 2009, 5:03 pm

Xamdou wrote:A clean K.O. 8)


Not really.

Raitei wrote:still continuing, are you? well then,

Kenzu wrote:
Fate shiro projected Avalon because he had the perfect blueprints inside him the whole time. Its not hard to assume that over time Archer could have discovered avalon within his own body
Besides, if archer Was a partial by-product of the Fate route, and he did lose an arm projecting... then its safe to assume he learned of it then, and saber never extracted it from him because it was too dangerous.
Anyways there are multiple ways he could know about avalon, there are also an infinite number of scenarios and possibilities on how it could have been used
it is NOT known whether archer know of avalon or not. sure, he may know about its existence and ability, but what we can safely assume is he DOES NOT know about its details (true name, effect, etc, etc..) otherwise, he would have told shirou to give it back to saber instead of talking shit like "only emiya shirou can defeat the king of heroes. emiya shirou is his natural enemy... etc, etc..."

I don't think there would be other ways for Shirou to learn about Saber's sheath. He knew about the healing but only in Fate he got the reason. Besides, healing effect got weak after the contract ended. Even if he had a blueprint, he would need a trigger to use it like when fighting Gil.
oh, there is. do you not count the WHEN factor? do you always assume that he MUST learn about avalon DURING the grail war? not AFTER? of course, this is another speculation, but unless you can point out a canon source regarding on how he learnt about avalon's existence, your point, too, is a speculation.

Archer like being, Saber and Dark Sakura are the only ones who could beat Gilgamesh.
Without getting Avalon out of Shirou's body Saber would never defeat Gilgamesh.
sorry? hellooo, we're talking about shitloads possibility why gilgamesh was defeated (or was he? maybe he only resides in church all the whole time). one of the strongest and simplest explanation is ubw-like final duel. shirou vs gilgamesh. faker vs king of heroes. and thus answers another question on how did archer get those truckloads of sword recordings inside his own ubw.

hint : nobody knows exactly when archer first learnt to expand ubw.


I don't know why you think it's inevitable that she'll be freed. Her wish is to disappear, so SOMEONE has to free her. Archer must have known who, if he could say so. It could be that he said "one day" or "eventually" because he didn't know when Saber would be summoned to the Fate scenario.
sorry? archer's words in fate largely contains hidden hope that saber would be freed. why? because he knew she would suffer from the same condition he had gone through. see, archer told saber, saber told shirou (she told him that "he would go down the path she went") , and shirou, who thinks saber is beautiful yet sad because of that fact, freed her at last.

Yeah, it is never stated which route Archer is from. But it was made like that so it could be discussed.
There is no route where Ilya is the main character. Deal with it. No matter how much you want it to exist, it just isn't real. If it were to be, then it would be in the original game as a route or an extra.
Archer didn't have the knowledge about Angra Manyu. As a Guardian he fought in many different ages and hells, so he could have fought monsters similar to it.
so it is people's speculation that archer's from the route aside from the original there in f/sn. let me say this : whenever you deal with something that doesn't exist, you must speculate. there's no use searching the canon materials and / or hoping for canon discussions since the canon tself said that "there's little, if no chance that shirou from the three f/sn routes will become archer"

About a lover. Yes, I do limit the Holy Grail War as the only time Shirou can get a partner. I doubt anyone would be able to fall for this guy other than the three heroines. Just look at how dull he was with Sakura around. Yeah, he could be with Sakura or Rin, but he's a guy that would rather die himself than lose a girl he loves. In Saber's case, losing her was right with his ideal.
...what? lol. shirou didn't free saber because of his ideal. it was directly stated that he consider saber's life endeavour is beautiful, and hence did not want to trample on it. it has nothing to do with ideals. nothing at all.

Making a contract with the world is something that Fate Shirou would do. Why are people denying it so strongly?
There is a reason he would do it, but can anyone give a reason why he wouldn't do it?
aha, this is another fallacy. like saying "saddam hussein has a weapon of mass destruction since people cannot prove otherwise". well then, let me ask you this : why would he do it? he already made peace with his past; he first underwent the superhero ideal he borrowed from kiritsugu because he felt guilty. "I would have been one of them if it wasn't for kiritsugu", that's what he thought. so he worked hard in order to "atone" his sins. but the church basement scene already proved that he himself realized that "no matter what, you cannot change the past, so get over with it already and look forward".

So you suggest that if Archer saved Saber he is Fate Shirou and if he didn't he's a byproduct with Avalon inside him. It's OK, but after some thinking, there is no reason why Archer wouldn't have been able to free Saber. The reason he could is already mentioned. And if he did, then Avalon MUST have been removed in order to defeat Gilgamesh.
Also making a contract with the World has everything to do with Fate Shirou. It has nothing to do with HF Shirou, if you want to use words like "nothing to do" or "can't be".
arai didn't make those points without referring to canon source, good gracious. (honestly, do you think you can point out better than him?) those points are canon, and I'm sure of it. I even remember in either ubw or fate (my memory's a little vague, so I can'tpoint the exact quote) that archer once said (or implied) that he summoned saber and was unable to free her.


Okay, let's get to it.

It can be easily concluded that Saber's sword has a "Holy" element and it works very well against people who were implanted with Avalon. It might be that it works just as well on any other things, as Berserker didn't regenerate well in HF after being slashed.
Then, there's also Rin's conclusion about a connection. Let's say, that the sheath won't heal the damage caused by Holy weapons or at least of the Holy sword it keeps. Excalibur is the most Holy sword, so it can easily slash through any object or person with the "Holy" element.
It isn't necessary for Archer to have Avalon inside him at that time. He was Shirou, so he had Avalon inside him for ten years. His body could have adapted the "Holy" element of the sheath. That way Avalon would become a double edged sword. It saved Shirou, but also made him especially vulnerable to Excalibur.
hahaa, this is one of the most interesting speculation I've ever heard so far. not being an ass, but holy element makes you regenerate faster? what is this? holy light? paladin's ability? (heals 250 damage to target ally or hero and / or deal 250 damage to undead enemies)

holy element makes berserker unable to regenerate quickly? what do you think his body is made of? dark element? if so, his body would be black. pitch black. not lead coloured. :P



About the arm.

Archer said NEW magic. Not projection magic. I read that too before posting. Yeah, his assessment does kind of sound like it was projection. If we are to agree it was that, then we can suggest that it could have been his first projection of something else than a sword f.e. a shield.

He could recover without Avalon. It didn't do much without Saber anyway. His doctor would be Rin. In Fate scenario Shirou would probably ask her for some lessons after the War, in order to get closer to becoming an ally of justice. It is not unthinkable.
the point at hand was projection magic. archer saw what shirou did and commented about it in front of shirou and saber. there's no thinking otherwise.

not unthinkable, but quite improbable. fate shirou already made peace with himself. he no longer "gokrazeehtosaveasmuchpeopleasIcan".

Okay, back to the point.

About Archer's memories. Maybe it is that he is a damn good liar, but then again Shirou never wasn't. Heck, Shirou had a hard time with not revealing too much. Rin always got everytihg out of him somehow.

We can also assume that his memories returned after a few days but he didn't mention anything because Rin wouldn't allow him to do anything. There are amnesia cases where memories return after a few days. His summoning WAS pretty rough.
archer did experience a memory loss right after his summning. probably one of the reason why it didn't occur to him to kill shirou at first. but it has nothing to do with his summoning being rough; archer himself pointed out that there WAS a MISTAKE in the process.

I didn't quite get what you meant here, so here are my thoughts about Shirou.

Fate Shirou thinks his ideal is beautiful and that he will be able to realize it if he works hard. Even going as far as sacrificing his whole being in order to obtain the power to do so.
haa, did you just read a crude synopsis about fate shirou and posted it here? because fate shirou is not half simple as that. fate shirou pursued the ideal because he thinks it's beautiful; he made peace with himself (because he couldn't save those people caught in fire). not because of his guilt anymore. and he has a new reason for pursuing it while being reasonable (unlike what you said) : saber.

continue further than this and it'll be like what gil keeper said (sorry if I "mispronounced" your name, mate :P ) : a discussion full of speculations in where one speculator could never accept the other's speculation, and so on.


OK, I see there is no point in pointing out and proving anything. Fanatics are fanatics and there's no changing them even
if you prove them wrong.

I'm not even going to bother quoting everything. It's tiring to post the same thing over and over again.

So here you go. Let me point it out your way.

Raitei, your points disprove nothing and prove nothing. They are simply worthless. For the discussion of
course, because people who don't allow themselves the thoughts of Archer being Fate Shirou are overjoyed
at the fact that someone denied the possibility, even if it doesn't make sense. You just childlishly don't
let yourself accept the possibility of Fate Shirou being Archer. Not because of something. Just BECAUSE.
You don't ask good questions nor give good points. Hell, I see you don't even bother to think about what
someone wrote. You simply deny.


Your points can be simply disproved by adding questions "like how", "like what" and similar after them.


You probably won't accept it anyway but I'll point out why Fate Shirou WOULD make a Contract with the World.
The simplest reason for doing it is "saving people from a disaster is something an ally of justice would do".
There. But you can't give ANY reasons why he wouldn't make the Contract, can you? You will just simply keep
denying he would make it.


I don't know how you read Fate if you can't figure out Shirou's feelings in this scenario. The first sentence
you wrote is a repeat of my point and the others are "BECAUSE" sentences that don't make any sense.

Fate Shirou IS simple in fact. OK, his actions had something to do with guilt and he did make peace with his
past. But Fate Shirou pursued his ideal because he thought it was natural for him to do so. Meeting Saber
made him think he's right even more. Saber's premonitory words had no effect on Shirou.
Saber did tell Shirou that "he would go down the path she went" and he actually did. Why? Because he never
realized the flaws of his ideal. Not until he became the Eirei Emiya and had everything pointed out. She also
said he would regret it and that happened too.

Shirou freed Saber because he didn't want to disgrace her. That's right. So she could remain a perfect hero,
that he admired. A perfect hero - that's his ideal. Not only saving people, but also the power to make it true.
He wanted to become someone like Saber.

It's UBW Shirou that pusues the ideal because it's beautiful. Even if he had it deep inside him in Fate he
didn't realize anything on his own. Where's the point here? You even went as far as mentioning Saber as
a new reason and by doing that you agreed with me in a way. So did you or did you not get Shirou's feelings
in Fate? Your sentences are contradictory. what do you disagree with exactly?

Yes, I did read a synopsis, but I can agree to it with my own words. I can think on my own, accept and adapt
others points od view in order to reach a satisfying conclusion. I try not to limit my thoughts, but strongly
support them with evidence until someone disproves it. Unlike a certain someone.


Perhaps the "Holy" element isn't the best explanation but it still is SOMETHING, unlike your points.
It doesn't make you "regenerate faster" you RPG freak.

Since a Holy object is inside someone for a long period of time it could be that the person absorbs some part of
the element. Like Shirou had the blueprint of Avalon inside him despite never seeing it.
And I did mention that Berserker's wounds from Saber's sword didn't heal despite costing him 2 lives. It was
Black Berserker from HF if you don't remember. His colors were black and red, not lead.
So perhaps it isn't about Archer's Avalon and whatnot but about the ability of Excalibur. Read: Doesn't allow
the healing of wounds done by any objects or magic. And don't come with Lancer's example in Fate/Zero here.
It's not Nasu's original work, even though it kicks ass. Besides that, Lancer got cut only slightly compared
to Archer - from arm down to waist.
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