Archer - Let's clear this up, shall we? [SPOILERS]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 8th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Rikh wrote:i a sense.... Saber's Overpowered...

the only actual match for her is either Gilgamesh or Berserker... but its proven in UBW she can own Garzerker on a fight in the right situations


I don't know if Saber can actually own Berserker... She certainly didn't lost in UBW, but didn't took any life neither (though didn't have much time), and a couple hits of him should do the job. With Caliburn and Excalibur maybe she could take all 12 lifes, though that needs Shirou support.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 8th, 2009, 7:09 pm

There is some strange things about Berserker i can't understand : to kill him just ONE time is some kind of miracle but people seems to think of him like some kind of measure as if killing him was just a formality. Hell, he is not just a guy with many lives. He overpowers every servants with his mad stats and this is not even certain that a full powered Saber is able to defeat him just one time : / . It just strikes me.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 8th, 2009, 9:06 pm

Define "Full Powered" my friend. A full powered Sabre under Shirou still suffers much handicap. First of all, her status suffers an almost global rank-down, and not to mention the limited mana supply and dealing with a Master who believes he can serve as an adequate shield for his servant. If you check Sabre's status screen under the control of Tohsaka, you will see there is a potential for her to dent God Hand with her melee attacks. There just won't be this much drama if Rin summoned Sabre. Gem nuke to the head (maybe not point blank), then use the opening for a well-placed Excalibur... there are just too many ways to kill a Servant who has no offensive Noble Phantasms.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 8th, 2009, 9:48 pm

certainly. I agree with this statement. A full powered Saber under Rin control has chances to kill Berserker. But Berserker certainly has the same chances if not more, to kill Saber (How does Ylia support her servant? I truly don't know. Is she just a mana pool?). There is a debat about the stat screen of Berserker because we know he can ben Saber and Lancer. So that means he have a A ranked Agility and Force (These are required to fit the class.) or the Mad Enhancement should rank up all parameters. In my opinion, even under Rin's control, Berserker is still more powerfull than Saber so killing him just once seems to me quit a hard challenge.
Of course, he doesn't have usable offensiv NP but servants can't use it as some kind of instant spamming button. Well, maybe they can but if it was possible, why they don't. Hiding true identity? I don't think this is the only cause and correct me if i'm wrong but it appears that using a NP requires mass mana+ perfect conditions to meet. And this should be hard to meet with a roaring Berserker putting a big pressure on poor Saber :'D.
Of course, most of what i say are speculations but hell :'(, it makes me sad to see that poor Berserker is no more than a strange ranking measure in your regards :'''''(.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 9th, 2009, 12:01 am

Vhailor wrote:certainly. I agree with this statement. A full powered Saber under Rin control has chances to kill Berserker. But Berserker certainly has the same chances if not more, to kill Saber (How does Ylia support her servant? I truly don't know. Is she just a mana pool?). There is a debat about the stat screen of Berserker because we know he can ben Saber and Lancer. So that means he have a A ranked Agility and Force (These are required to fit the class.) or the Mad Enhancement should rank up all parameters. In my opinion, even under Rin's control, Berserker is still more powerfull than Saber so killing him just once seems to me quit a hard challenge.
Of course, he doesn't have usable offensiv NP but servants can't use it as some kind of instant spamming button. Well, maybe they can but if it was possible, why they don't. Hiding true identity? I don't think this is the only cause and correct me if i'm wrong but it appears that using a NP requires mass mana+ perfect conditions to meet. And this should be hard to meet with a roaring Berserker putting a big pressure on poor Saber :'D.
Of course, most of what i say are speculations but hell :'(, it makes me sad to see that poor Berserker is no more than a strange ranking measure in your regards :'''''(.
Firstly, Ilya's a good-for nothing besides being a prana provider for Berserker. Telling and boasting Servant identity, ordering Servant like a kid without giving a real support, standing in the corner when Berserker was being bombarded by Gilgamesh... there's really nothing more to say.

Secondly, by full power Saber, I think he meant Saber who can release Excalibur to its fullest potential. Which would bring us to Rin Saber as conclusion. And thirdly, no, Rin Saber > Berserker. Yeah, Berserker Hercules. Stat-wise, Ilya being his Master means that he already reached the peak he can achieve as a materialization of the Third Magic. And Rin Saber was on par, if not topped him even without Mad Enhancement. Moreover, Rin Saber can use her most powerful NPs without real concerns, unlike Shirou Saber.

What I'm saying is, Berserker is a strong Servant, no doubt. But that's as far as he goes, if he's still a Berserker.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 9th, 2009, 3:09 pm

Shourai wrote:Stat-wise, Ilya being his Master means that he already reached the peak he can achieve as a materialization of the Third Magic. And Rin Saber was on par, if not topped him even without Mad Enhancement. Moreover, Rin Saber can use her most powerful NPs without real concerns, unlike Shirou Saber.


I agree overall Saber >Berserker .But his strength, agility and Endurance as greater than hers ( thanks to mad enchantment ) she is greater in other departments though.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 9th, 2009, 4:04 pm

The incognita here would be, I think, how many lives can Saber take with Excalibur.
Also, if is Rin's Saber, she doesn't has Caliburn; Invisible Air can't harm Berserker and her melee attacks would be able to take at most one life before him developing resistance, so if Excalibur can't take the remaining ones, she's kinda screwed (also, even if it's Shirou's Saber, she would need him for Caliburn, so it would not be as like she is stronger than Berserker).
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 9th, 2009, 4:16 pm

I think we're forgetting something here. The fact that (Dark) Excalibur used on Berserker in Heaven's Feel wasn't at full power. Why? Because of this :

FUYUKI WIKI wrote:Excalibur - Sword of Promised Victory
The sword of light.

A divine construction, forged by the planet. The pinnacle of holy swords. The stored wishes of mankind that had become crystallized and tempered within the planet. It had been guarded by the extensions of the planet (High Spirits/fairies) but had passed briefly into the hands of a King Arthur. Transforms the user's Prana into light, and augments the kinetic force by convergence and acceleration. A holy sword that allows for the use of Divine Spirit level thaumaturgy. Also, as its transforming the user's own Prana, the alignment of the sword will also change based on that, hence Black Excalibur's appearance. Length is some 90cm, width of 12cm.

Range: A++
Type: Anti-fortress
Range: 1-99
Max AOE: 1000 units

And since some people seem to be underestimating Excalibur (just like how people always seem to underestimate Fate character levels because of Deen's subpar effects)




Excalibur in full power is strong enough to cover (almost) an entire city. Shirou and Ilya still lived to tell the tale, so... yeah, you got what I mean. :)

@Inverted: Well, he's Hercules. It's to be expected. :wink:
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Unread postby serialies » January 9th, 2009, 6:25 pm

Firstly, Ilya's a good-for nothing besides being a prana provider for Berserker.


lolwut.
Ilya pretty much did the same thing Gil did, lots of power, but didn't use it, could probably kill Rin in a serious 1 on 1 (course, works both ways, Rin could also kill Ilya).
fact remains that Ilya = homunculi (even the real shitty ones > the average magus), and Ilya = has a very very powerful magic crest which stems from a very very powerful family.

What I'm saying is, Berserker is a strong Servant, no doubt. But that's as far as he goes, if he's still a Berserker.


I'm assuming you're talking about the heroic spirit, rather than the class in general.

Had Saber(King Arthur) been summoned as the Beserker class, and Beserker(Herc) been summoned as Saber, i assure you, Saber(King Arthur) would loose.
course, that would depend on how insane Saber was...aka, sane nuff to use Excalibur or not.
this is of course ignoring the effect of masters (shitty master vs good master...etc)

tbh, the fact that Herc still remained so powerful/threatening after being Beserkerized is testament to how powerful he really is.

Beserker class has some definite weaknesses, and only a few heroic spirits (i would imagine) would have NP's that compliment the many restrictions batshit insanity imposes.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 9th, 2009, 11:58 pm

serialies wrote:lolwut.
Ilya pretty much did the same thing Gil did, lots of power, but didn't use it, could probably kill Rin in a serious 1 on 1 (course, works both ways, Rin could also kill Ilya).
fact remains that Ilya = homunculi (even the real shitty ones > the average magus), and Ilya = has a very very powerful magic crest which stems from a very very powerful family.
Lol. I never said Ilya is a weak magus. I merely stated that she's useless as a backup because of obvious reasons. And with the fact that chances she would ever fight an all out battle is even smaller than Gil's (Gil at least has 2 serious scenes. Ilya?), it could have been nothing but a mere fluke.

What I'm saying is, Berserker is a strong Servant, no doubt. But that's as far as he goes, if he's still a Berserker.


I'm assuming you're talking about the heroic spirit, rather than the class in general.

Had Saber(King Arthur) been summoned as the Beserker class, and Beserker(Herc) been summoned as Saber, i assure you, Saber(King Arthur) would loose.
course, that would depend on how insane Saber was...aka, sane nuff to use Excalibur or not.
this is of course ignoring the effect of masters (shitty master vs good master...etc)

tbh, the fact that Herc still remained so powerful/threatening after being Beserkerized is testament to how powerful he really is.

Beserker class has some definite weaknesses, and only a few heroic spirits (i would imagine) would have NP's that compliment the many restrictions batshit insanity imposes.
Yeah, I have nothing against you here, but I don't see how my point opposes yours. They merely complement each other, tbh. :P

Being a Berserker, Heracles could push his body beyond his limitations when he was alive. But the toll is too great on his being a Servant; he lost one, if not more, of his strongest NPs.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 12th, 2009, 5:06 am

You are overestimating Ilya. Although the Einzberns are a prestigious lineage, it is very well known their trademark sorcery is transmutation and alchemy. Shourai was not really too far off when he said Ilya was good for nothing. Of course, she is way more competent as a Master than, say, Shirou and Soichirou. However, comparing to the Masters in the fourth war, or Rin in the fifth, she was inferior. The reason that Kiritsugu was recruited was that the Einzberns recognized their weakness and opted to seek a combat-oriented magus.

On a side note, the Einzberns sure know how to get their relics. Original ancient holy scripture? Check. Avalon? Check. Fragments of ancient temple? Check.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 4:56 am

actually i would like to restate my opinion on one of kenzu's thoughts

Archer probably has had avalon removed

Its stated in UBW that when Archer uses Rho Aius, it is described to be his 'only' defensive noble phantasm.
Not knowing if this honestly directly applies to Avalon (although its the most powerful def np in existence) if its stated in UBW that Archers only def NP is Rho Aius, then that could mean he doesnt have Avalon anymore

also he 'did' know about the sheath, so it could be definitely implied that he did lose it during his lifetime. (although i have to say, if he did have it removed, and he did have it during his life... it can be implied he can trace it... honestly its not proven that saber is needed to activate it, after all, archer is able to use h4xcalibur himself)

Anywho, just throwing that out there
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Unread postby Shourai » January 14th, 2009, 5:03 am

Rikh wrote:actually i would like to restate my opinion on one of kenzu's thoughts

Archer probably has had avalon removed

Its stated in UBW that when Archer uses Rho Aius, it is described to be his 'only' defensive noble phantasm.
Not knowing if this honestly directly applies to Avalon (although its the most powerful def np in existence) if its stated in UBW that Archers only def NP is Rho Aius, then that could mean he doesnt have Avalon anymore
May I dub it into "his only usable defensive armament"? Like Nero said, "What's the point of packin' a sword like that if you aren't gonna use it?". He (Archer) just considered "it doesn't exist".

also he 'did' know about the sheath, so it could be definitely implied that he did lose it during his lifetime. (although i have to say, if he did have it removed, and he did have it during his life... it can be implied he can trace it... honestly its not proven that saber is needed to activate it, after all, archer is able to use h4xcalibur himself)
I don't think so. The analogy is "you know there's a second liver in your body". That doesn't mean you're supposed to remove it (or have it removed), right?
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Unread postby Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 6:02 am

Shourai wrote:
Rikh wrote:actually i would like to restate my opinion on one of kenzu's thoughts

Archer probably has had avalon removed

Its stated in UBW that when Archer uses Rho Aius, it is described to be his 'only' defensive noble phantasm.
Not knowing if this honestly directly applies to Avalon (although its the most powerful def np in existence) if its stated in UBW that Archers only def NP is Rho Aius, then that could mean he doesnt have Avalon anymore
May I dub it into "his only usable defensive armament"? Like Nero said, "What's the point of packin' a sword like that if you aren't gonna use it?". He (Archer) just considered "it doesn't exist".

also he 'did' know about the sheath, so it could be definitely implied that he did lose it during his lifetime. (although i have to say, if he did have it removed, and he did have it during his life... it can be implied he can trace it... honestly its not proven that saber is needed to activate it, after all, archer is able to use h4xcalibur himself)
I don't think so. The analogy is "you know there's a second liver in your body". That doesn't mean you're supposed to remove it (or have it removed), right?

well honestly, It can be interpreted whether he had it removed or not in the first place

also the fact is, he knows enough about the sheath to know its powers/abilities, he also most likely knows the true name... since its fair obvious honestly...

so anyways, whether he has the sheath or not, he should be able to trace Avalon and use it. He can activate it as it has no set requirement for the use with saber, i mean seriously. Shiro traced avalon during fate while against Kotomine. Even though saber used the original Avalon against Gilgamesh, Shiro traced Avalon to shield him from the ichor

Although this could easily prove that archer is not the product of the fate route. Assuming Avalon is already removed (or not, it doesnt matter...)
If he doesn't have access to tracing the sheath, then he cannot be a product of fate shiro
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 6:21 am

Shourai wrote:May I dub it into "his only usable defensive armament"? Like Nero said, "What's the point of packin' a sword like that if you aren't gonna use it?"


Which nero said that? (too many anime universes and games out there....)

I'm pretty sure though that the only reason Shirou could even use the scabbard was because of his link with saber. Once that's gone it's worthless.

Then again if you look at the fate route, giving saber her scabbard back was Shirou's most likely course of action due to his opponent. We saw how saber was beaten by gil without it and won later with it.

Granted we don't know what actually happened in archer's lifetime, so it's impossible to say for sure what actually happened. Regardless however, he either had the scabbard removed or had his link with saber severed.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 14th, 2009, 8:14 am

Xanathos wrote:Which nero said that? (too many anime universes and games out there....)
It's DMC 4 Nero.

I'm pretty sure though that the only reason Shirou could even use the scabbard was because of his link with saber. Once that's gone it's worthless.

Then again if you look at the fate route, giving saber her scabbard back was Shirou's most likely course of action due to his opponent. We saw how saber was beaten by gil without it and won later with it.
It is indeed written in the actual legend that Avalon, the final resting place of King Arthur, is a paradise meant only for King Arthur. But then again, it is unknown whether Avalon as an activated Noble Phantasm really is restricted to Saber. I would take the "no" stance, since Avalon as a place and as a Noble Phantasm is way apart.

Regarding Gilgamesh, it is not known if Saber is the one who beat him. It is not even known that Gilgamesh is beaten or not in the so-called Ilya Route.

Regardless however, he either had the scabbard removed or had his link with saber severed.
I would say the latter. Not only the tie is ultimately severed, since you must sever ties with a Servant unless you got a prana provider like in UBW Good End, but also probability of the sheath never removed from his body is very high for whatever reason stated here or in the game.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 9:13 am

Shourai wrote:Regarding Gilgamesh, it is not known if Saber is the one who beat him. It is not even known that Gilgamesh is beaten or not in the so-called Ilya Route.


umm... just pointing this out...

Archers route is not the product of any of the three that Shiro partook in during the game F/SN
The fact that there were scrapped routes could have pointed out that Archer could have been the product of the 'illya route'
honestly everything is just speculation

people only say its the Illya route that created Archer due to the fact that he had a deep bond to Illya before she died in his life... honestly its rather better to call archer the product of the Archer route

and as proven by his pure existence in HF 5, Archer could be from a world with a grail war completely different then what happened in this worlds HF5, as stated by Rin, there are infinite parallel dimensions from the current world, some containing similar people and some containing massive differences


honestly nobody can state that "Archer is 100% from the fate route"... honestly there are more events that take place post fate and UBW (HF was pretty much elaborated as a closing...) that nobody even knows about. Its stated that Archer had a bad experience in London, or something similar to the sorts. Fate Shiro had no ties to the magic association, and Rin was not going to involve him with them during that route, the only route where Shiro does associate with the association is UBW
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 3:26 pm

I did not say that Archer was from the fate route. The reason i was using the fate route as an example was because it has the most likely outcome of Shirou becoming a heroic spirit. However the speculation is for the most part worthless due to the fact we don't have enough information.
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