The Shirou (fan) Thread [Spoilers]

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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 26th, 2008, 2:49 am

Grinja wrote:I actually like the first two versions of Shirou better, but I seem to be in the minority. I don't understand why people criticize him because he picked up on Kiritsugu's dream and decided to follow it, nobody would follow another's dream unless they too believed in it. I don't think he was too spoiled, he had to deal with a lot in his life, if it wasn't for Taiga and Sakura he would be completely alone so I can't fault him for clinging to the few people he has and wanting to protect them.

I liked HF Shirou too, until he stabbed Saber in the heart, and then I went 'meh'. Kind of spoiled the route for me.


Well, you gotta remember, he didn't say that because he wanted to forget about her. He said that because as the one to kill her he didn't believe he DESERVED to recall her memory. See his eyes in that CG? Killing Saber made him more regretful then he puts on. That's what makes that scene so sad. If you looked "Sparks Liner High," (the bad end if you don't have Rider with you against Saber) as I said earlier in the thread, there was some deep moments between them if you catch it.

Also, if you didn't like the route because you think he might have been able to save Saber, I'll add this as well:

Well, while it does SEEM like it could be done that way, I don't think its that simple.
When Saber was turned by the shadow she became a part of it in my opinion, so just using Rule Breaker would not have canceled the blackening effect, otherwise, she would have turned back when she died.
It wasn't just that Saber was "ooh evil dark saber" her alignment was changed as well, so she behaved differently, but similarly at the same time. With Rule Breaker, all you would have is a blackened Saber that isn't connected to Sakura anymore. And that would be....very dangerous, and a waste of a projection in my opinion.

Now what Shirou should have done when he found out about Zouken using crest worms on Sakura is try to use Rule Breaker on her. Hell, Archer should have spoken up, since I'm sure he had doubts on who the shadow was himself. A little brainstorming after getting Archer's arm would have solved some headaches. If after freeing her, the effect, taking away the shadow's ability to manifest itself at the moment, before reaching a certain stage, might "un-blacken" Saber and Berserker. Then, since we know that Sakura would have a huge amount of maryoku, we let her take in Saber, and Ilya gets back Berserker, we've got a new path after this that I'll have to think about. Although Kotomine might be awful pissed at this development.

Skip ahead a bit, then all we do is train Shirou to become an accomplished magus, and ten years later he offsets the "time-bomb" of Archer's arm, and there, we got a new ending.

It just makes the whole way it went down even more heartbreaking. :cry:
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 26th, 2008, 2:51 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:
Grinja wrote:I actually like the first two versions of Shirou better, but I seem to be in the minority. I don't understand why people criticize him because he picked up on Kiritsugu's dream and decided to follow it, nobody would follow another's dream unless they too believed in it. I don't think he was too spoiled, he had to deal with a lot in his life, if it wasn't for Taiga and Sakura he would be completely alone so I can't fault him for clinging to the few people he has and wanting to protect them.

I liked HF Shirou too, until he stabbed Saber in the heart, and then I went 'meh'. Kind of spoiled the route for me.


Well, you gotta remember, he didn't say that because he wanted to forget about her. He said that because as the one to kill her he didn't believe he DESERVED to recall her memory. See his eyes in that CG? Killing Saber made him more regretful then he puts on. That's what makes that scene so sad. If you looked "Sparks Liner High," (the bad end if you don't have Rider with you against Saber) as I said earlier in the thread, there was some deep moments between them if you catch it.

Also, if you didn't like the route because you think he might have been able to save Saber, I'll add this as well:

Well, while it does SEEM like it could be done that way, I don't think its that simple.
When Saber was turned by the shadow she became a part of it in my opinion, so just using Rule Breaker would not have canceled the blackening effect, otherwise, she would have turned back when she died.
It wasn't just that Saber was "ooh evil dark saber" her alignment was changed as well, so she behaved differently, but similarly at the same time. With Rule Breaker, all you would have is a blackened Saber that isn't connected to Sakura anymore. And that would be....very dangerous, and a waste of a projection in my opinion.

Now what Shirou should have done when he found out about Zouken using crest worms on Sakura is try to use Rule Breaker on her. Hell, Archer should have spoken up, since I'm sure he had doubts on who the shadow was himself. A little brainstorming after getting Archer's arm would have solved some headaches. If after freeing her, the effect, taking away the shadow's ability to manifest itself at the moment, before reaching a certain stage, might "un-blacken" Saber and Berserker. Then, since we know that Sakura would have a huge amount of maryoku, we let her take in Saber, and Ilya gets back Berserker, we've got a new path after this that I'll have to think about. Although Kotomine might be awful pissed at this development.

Skip ahead a bit, then all we do is train Shirou to become an accomplished magus, and ten years later he offsets the "time-bomb" of Archer's arm, and there, we got a new ending.

It just makes the whole way it went down even more heartbreaking. :cry:
And Shirou might become a sorcerer?
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Raitei » December 26th, 2008, 3:13 am

firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 26th, 2008, 4:43 am

Raitei wrote:
firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.


Yeah I know, in fact that was just what I said. That you couldn't erase the corruption from the Servants once it was done, so Saber couldn't have been saved. The other stuff was my hypothesis, but I do know it was hopeless.
Also, about Sakura, I was talking about cutting off her contract with Avenger. (Which is really the most important thing for her besides the crest worms anyway)
The gang wouldn't have known about Avenger, but they might have tried it because Rule Breakers original description had it say that it canceled lasting magical effects and returned them to their original components, so they might have though it would work on the crest worms, as it is still a magical influence effecting another person not a totally permanent effect. Also, you are right Archer's arm isn't the answer to everything by a long shot, I was more talking about how Shirou might have recalled Rule Breaker earlier in the story.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 26th, 2008, 6:47 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:
Raitei wrote:
firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.


Yeah I know, in fact that was just what I said. That you couldn't erase the corruption from the Servants once it was done, so Saber couldn't have been saved. The other stuff was my hypothesis, but I do know it was hopeless.
Also, about Sakura, I was talking about cutting off her contract with Avenger. (Which is really the most important thing for her besides the crest worms anyway)
The gang wouldn't have known about Avenger, but they might have tried it because Rule Breakers original description had it say that it canceled lasting magical effects and returned them to their original components, so they might have though it would work on the crest worms, as it is still a magical influence effecting another person not a totally permanent effect. Also, you are right Archer's arm isn't the answer to everything by a long shot, I was more talking about how Shirou might have recalled Rule Breaker earlier in the story.

Why? Bypassing the ensuing drama and action just for a technically correct and efficient good end?I rather turn a blind eye to the potential plot holes and just call them dramatic irony.
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Unread postby that one guy » December 26th, 2008, 6:53 am

Altima of the Gates wrote:
Raitei wrote:
firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.


Yeah I know, in fact that was just what I said. That you couldn't erase the corruption from the Servants once it was done, so Saber couldn't have been saved. The other stuff was my hypothesis, but I do know it was hopeless.
Also, about Sakura, I was talking about cutting off her contract with Avenger. (Which is really the most important thing for her besides the crest worms anyway)
The gang wouldn't have known about Avenger, but they might have tried it because Rule Breakers original description had it say that it canceled lasting magical effects and returned them to their original components, so they might have though it would work on the crest worms, as it is still a magical influence effecting another person not a totally permanent effect. Also, you are right Archer's arm isn't the answer to everything by a long shot, I was more talking about how Shirou might have recalled Rule Breaker earlier in the story.


Using Rule Breaker at that point would have been pointless, as Rule Breaker severs magical contracts, it can't extract a worm from someones heart. Hell, if she didn't have Avenger keeping her alive when she pulled it out, Zouken never would have left Sakuras body. He was too small to be extracted by someone who is relatively skilled at that sort of thing, Kotomine, as, IIRC, it was way too small and in way too deep. Sakura had to rip open her heart to get at him.
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 26th, 2008, 6:55 am

that one guy wrote:
Altima of the Gates wrote:
Raitei wrote:
firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.


Yeah I know, in fact that was just what I said. That you couldn't erase the corruption from the Servants once it was done, so Saber couldn't have been saved. The other stuff was my hypothesis, but I do know it was hopeless.
Also, about Sakura, I was talking about cutting off her contract with Avenger. (Which is really the most important thing for her besides the crest worms anyway)
The gang wouldn't have known about Avenger, but they might have tried it because Rule Breakers original description had it say that it canceled lasting magical effects and returned them to their original components, so they might have though it would work on the crest worms, as it is still a magical influence effecting another person not a totally permanent effect. Also, you are right Archer's arm isn't the answer to everything by a long shot, I was more talking about how Shirou might have recalled Rule Breaker earlier in the story.


Using Rule Breaker at that point would have been pointless, as Rule Breaker severs magical contracts, it can't extract a worm from someones heart. Hell, if she didn't have Avenger keeping her alive when she pulled it out, Zouken never would have left Sakuras body. He was too small to be extracted by someone who is relatively skilled at that sort of thing, Kotomine, as, IIRC, it was way too small and in way too deep. Sakura had to rip open her heart to get at him.
didn't kotomine said that it is also stuck at her nerve or something (can't remember well)
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 26th, 2008, 5:20 pm

that one guy wrote:
Altima of the Gates wrote:
Raitei wrote:
firstly, no, you cannot reverse the curse after it's been done. even if you eliminate the "poison" within sakura herself. the analogy goes down like this : imagine there's a rotten tree with rotten fruits. when servants become corrupted, they are the rotten fruits. if, somehow by a miracle you can make the tree healthy again, you can't do the same to the fruits. they're gone, dropping to the ground, and that's all to it.

and you know what, you cannot severe one's ties with his/her magic crest with rule breaker. rule breaker works to cut off contracts. while magic crests works like organs. justlike rin said. they naturally bound themselves with the magi. so no, what have been done are done. you cannot hope for an alternate good ending.

and no, archer's arm doesn't work like an all-kind-of-trouble-in-f/sn-answer-generating-machine. heck, even archer could not predict what will happen in each and every route. he may have all the "books", but the book he carries is specifically limited to 1 edition. in other words, his memory comes from a specific route. (ilya route?) and archer's pattern of thinking differs much from hf shirou, that's why he decided not to kill shirou and aid him by giving the artificial phantasm.


Yeah I know, in fact that was just what I said. That you couldn't erase the corruption from the Servants once it was done, so Saber couldn't have been saved. The other stuff was my hypothesis, but I do know it was hopeless.
Also, about Sakura, I was talking about cutting off her contract with Avenger. (Which is really the most important thing for her besides the crest worms anyway)
The gang wouldn't have known about Avenger, but they might have tried it because Rule Breakers original description had it say that it canceled lasting magical effects and returned them to their original components, so they might have though it would work on the crest worms, as it is still a magical influence effecting another person not a totally permanent effect. Also, you are right Archer's arm isn't the answer to everything by a long shot, I was more talking about how Shirou might have recalled Rule Breaker earlier in the story.


Using Rule Breaker at that point would have been pointless, as Rule Breaker severs magical contracts, it can't extract a worm from someones heart. Hell, if she didn't have Avenger keeping her alive when she pulled it out, Zouken never would have left Sakuras body. He was too small to be extracted by someone who is relatively skilled at that sort of thing, Kotomine, as, IIRC, it was way too small and in way too deep. Sakura had to rip open her heart to get at him.

Ah, yes you're right it was only due to the freakish healing from Angra Mainyu that she lived through that. So technically its not really a plot hole then (not that I thought it was btw).
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Unread postby allanh » February 4th, 2009, 11:10 am

Masterori wrote:I actually quite like shirou in all routes.. I don't get why people go noob bash him so much... ( Well I get why but I'll leave it out since it's a shirou thread.. )

Alot of people seem to hate fate shirou while personally I quite like him ( possibly best of the shirous ).. shirou is by no means stupid but he simply follows his ideal.. I find that admirable he knows he cannot do it yet he tries. Bit typical of a shounen main character style but I find nothing wrong with the pureness in it... like chasing after your own dream.

He helps and put others ahead of himself since he put himself ahead of others in the fire 10 years ago it left him a emotional scar... A scar that tells him to help others so he can feel better of what happened in the fire where just left the people behind. His actions are explainable, admirable too in a way.

Truthfully shirou reminds me a bit of me... who here doesn't want to be able to chase after their dreams ( I'm sure enough at least some of you wanted to become super heroes after watching batman, superman, spiderman or something ), but the world here is incredibly realistic thus I somewhat admire/envy shirou being able to chase after his dreams despise what he goes people saying about him. A child pursuing their dreams is one of the most purest things you may see.


I agree with this opinion 100%.

I like Shirou and he is a lot of things that we can't achieve in the real world.
The only part I disagree with Shirou's decision making is when he chose Sakura over saving the world in HF. Another disagreement I have with him is at the end of Fate route when he chose to destroy the Holy Grail despite knowing Saber-chan would disappear as a result of that.
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Unread postby Rikh » February 5th, 2009, 4:06 am

I like UBW Shiro the most. Even though he seemed the most childish in this route, i just thought it was cool that he would challenge himself even though he knew he was doomed to failure. It takes a courageous person to walk down a path of self destruction willingly to protect as many as possible

HF shiro was pretty awesome as well, it also took a very strong conviction to quite literally kill himself slowly over the route to help sakura, even when he knows it goes against everything he originally stood for.

Fate shiro was cool too, just not as much as the others IMHO

Honestly, i respect Shiro and think he is a great protagonist. No matter the odds, he will protect those close to him, and even if in horrible fear or intolerable pain, he will force his body to win. His conviction alone is his best trait in my opinion

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Unread postby nobaka » February 5th, 2009, 4:48 am

Uh, guys. Remember, he IS a child. Like, legally. He's what, 17? (even though it's most likely legal in Japan, however old he is)

He's young. Of course he's going to be childish, regardless of his ideals.
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