Saber - Whats the appeal? - SPOILERS

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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 21st, 2008, 2:43 pm

Yeah, seriously. Saber has a good personality. Sakura is kind of like, she'll act however she's supposed to during the moment, and it depends not on her personality at all. She has no beliefs or convictions, and has a very weak will.

Honestly, when I heard Heavens Feel was about Sakura, I was mixed. I wasn't sure if she had enough character depth for it, plus, I didn't wanna see her and Shirou ever hook up. So when it was finally released, I was like "All right, time to see what they did with her character"

.....

8 game days in


"Where's Sakura?"
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Unread postby that one guy » December 21st, 2008, 8:21 pm

Sakura was never really violent to begin with. She was a little jealous*about as much as Rin/Saber were* and she had those weird Angra Manyu bursts of "WTF?!" but other than that she was just Sakura. I'll agree she could use a little more personality, but the reason why she doesn't is good enough for me.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 21st, 2008, 10:30 pm

Speaking of Heaven's Feel, even Black Saber retained her personality. You basically get to see Saber if had been summoned by a more ruthless master. She avoided taking the offensive against Shirou and the others, even while barely holding her Grail-induced rage in check.
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Unread postby Wiiown » December 21st, 2008, 11:03 pm

nobaka wrote:Speaking of Heaven's Feel, even Black Saber retained her personality. You basically get to see Saber if had been summoned by a more ruthless master. She avoided taking the offensive against Shirou and the others, even while barely holding her Grail-induced rage in check.
She seemed to be a little corrupted at the same time though. She had no moral problem beating the crap out of shirou if sakura ordered her to, while the old Saber would try to resist and probably feel guilty. I think Black Saber was just saber without a conscience >_>
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Unread postby nobaka » December 22nd, 2008, 1:22 am

Wiiown wrote:
nobaka wrote:Speaking of Heaven's Feel, even Black Saber retained her personality. You basically get to see Saber if had been summoned by a more ruthless master. She avoided taking the offensive against Shirou and the others, even while barely holding her Grail-induced rage in check.
She seemed to be a little corrupted at the same time though. She had no moral problem beating the crap out of shirou if sakura ordered her to, while the old Saber would try to resist and probably feel guilty. I think Black Saber was just saber without a conscience >_>


It's not that she was without conscience so much as unable to control herself.

From the description of Black Saber's Instinct (B) Skill:
"Because she is continually suppressing her rage, her instincts have become more blunt."

Think about it. When you're REALLY pissed, or upset about something, you're far more prone to do things you wouldn't normally.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 22nd, 2008, 7:03 am

Wiiown wrote:
nobaka wrote:Speaking of Heaven's Feel, even Black Saber retained her personality. You basically get to see Saber if had been summoned by a more ruthless master. She avoided taking the offensive against Shirou and the others, even while barely holding her Grail-induced rage in check.
She seemed to be a little corrupted at the same time though. She had no moral problem beating the crap out of shirou if sakura ordered her to, while the old Saber would try to resist and probably feel guilty. I think Black Saber was just saber without a conscience >_>


That would be the result of her alignment, Lawfully Evil. She is evil, but she will follow command to a T.
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Unread postby Sepheriel » December 22nd, 2008, 7:19 am

Raitei wrote:
Sepheriel wrote:Raitei, you sir, have stolen pretty much everything I would say. I wonder if your love for Saber is as much as mine >: D
... what?

I wonder if your love for Saber is as much as mine >: D
...

your love for Saber is as much as mine >: D
no, my love for saber has pretty much degenerated over time and has now become something of a "prized possession" love, pretty much like gilgamesh.

your love for saber, m'boy , isn't half deep as mine. 8)


I mean that everything you've said about Saber I agree with. Also, you'd be surprised how deep my love for Saber goes *ponders what possible replies will come of this statement*
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 22nd, 2008, 9:06 am

Saber is so cool that I have the Saber Lily figure and I'm a Rin fanboy. In fact... I have 4 figures of Saber and only 1 of Rin, lol.
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Unread postby Grinja » December 23rd, 2008, 4:35 am

I felt like Saber and Shirou had the best connection in ideals because they both end up putting the desires and welfare of others above themselves. She's always trying her best to protect him, and he's always trying to protect her. She seemed to bring out some of Shirou's better qualities in Fate. She's also tough as nails, but if you can get inside her mind you see she was a really nice soft side to her that regrets the decisions she made that have hurt people. I'll be honest I didn't like HF nearly as much as Fate or UBW because the characters seemed to act so much different then the first two paths.

Saber has her cute moments, her innocent moments, and add that to the fact she can kick you or anyone else's ass, thats hot. She'd always have your back in a pinch and be able to back you up. To me it seems like she'd be not only your romantic interest but a best friend too. Not to say that Rin and Sakura couldn't be that way too, I just got more of that sense from Saber.

I just finished the HF path yesterday and I can't help but feel like I got cheated out a Fate route Good End, yes I am sad.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 23rd, 2008, 7:03 am

I don't know... I tend to find good ends pale in comparison to the "tragic" ends. It is true that good ends give you better closure and make you warm and fuzzy for a while, but they are quickly forgotten. The powerful tragic ends, on the other hand, tend to tug your heart strings and remain for a significantly longer period of time. The reason I did not join the Fate Route bashing was solely because I felt the ending was very well executed. It made me completely forget about how great a failure as a character Shirou was in this route. Both endings of UBW are really weak compared to the emotional ending of Fate, but the "Answer" epilogue provided some redemption.

From what I read about the Realta Nua pseudo-good end, it was well done. What I find unacceptable are the UBW style good ends, the "Shirou-we-will-live-happily-ever-after-and-do-mana-transfer-everyday" type of ending. I found myself bashing my head on the keyboard after reading UBW good end.
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » December 23rd, 2008, 8:34 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I don't know... I tend to find good ends pale in comparison to the "tragic" ends. It is true that good ends give you better closure and make you warm and fuzzy for a while, but they are quickly forgotten. The powerful tragic ends, on the other hand, tend to tug your heart...."


...

I have not the heart to read from there...

To be honest i COMPLETELY forgot about Saber's... Fate ending...
That is until i completed Fate/Unlimited Codes using Saber and was reminded of the whole thing when i got her ending after finishing the game...
I have always thought of UBW Good End as a Fate Good End as well.. That was the only closure i had since watching the anime back then... sigh.

shoot...

now im emo all over again...
I understand your point.. but still... sigh..

shoot.......
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Unread postby abscess » December 23rd, 2008, 9:09 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I don't know... I tend to find good ends pale in comparison to the "tragic" ends. It is true that good ends give you better closure and make you warm and fuzzy for a while, but they are quickly forgotten. The powerful tragic ends, on the other hand, tend to tug your heart strings and remain for a significantly longer period of time. The reason I did not join the Fate Route bashing was solely because I felt the ending was very well executed. It made me completely forget about how great a failure as a character Shirou was in this route. Both endings of UBW are really weak compared to the emotional ending of Fate, but the "Answer" epilogue provided some redemption.

From what I read about the Realta Nua pseudo-good end, it was well done. What I find unacceptable are the UBW style good ends, the "Shirou-we-will-live-happily-ever-after-and-do-mana-transfer-everyday" type of ending. I found myself bashing my head on the keyboard after reading UBW good end.
"After such an epic clash with Gilgamesh and the story closes with THIS?!"

I'm with you in this one, man!
That's probably why I don't like Ever 17's ending.... WTF happened there?!! Maaaan... was that dissapointing...
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby aldw » December 23rd, 2008, 6:07 pm

A good ending can be tricky to pull off sometimes, but when it is well done it is most satisfying in ways that even bad endings can't really match.
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Unread postby Grinja » December 26th, 2008, 12:55 am

inferno_flamex wrote:To be honest i COMPLETELY forgot about Saber's... Fate ending...

now im emo all over again...
I understand your point.. but still... sigh..

shoot.......


If Archer's past follows closely to the Fate route, I can see why he'd turn into such a bitter individual, I probably would too :(


Its been over a week since I finished Fate and I still feel the pain.
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Unread postby Raitei » December 26th, 2008, 2:15 am

Grinja wrote:
inferno_flamex wrote:To be honest i COMPLETELY forgot about Saber's... Fate ending...

now im emo all over again...
I understand your point.. but still... sigh..

shoot.......


If Archer's past follows closely to the Fate route, I can see why he'd turn into such a bitter individual, I probably would too :(


Its been over a week since I finished Fate and I still feel the pain.
not fate route, but rather ilya route.
since that archer cares deeply about ilya and is grieving over ilya's death 1 year after hf5. but it's closely similar to fate nonetheless.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Wiiown » December 26th, 2008, 4:08 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I don't know... I tend to find good ends pale in comparison to the "tragic" ends. It is true that good ends give you better closure and make you warm and fuzzy for a while, but they are quickly forgotten. The powerful tragic ends, on the other hand, tend to tug your heart strings and remain for a significantly longer period of time. The reason I did not join the Fate Route bashing was solely because I felt the ending was very well executed. It made me completely forget about how great a failure as a character Shirou was in this route. Both endings of UBW are really weak compared to the emotional ending of Fate, but the "Answer" epilogue provided some redemption.

From what I read about the Realta Nua pseudo-good end, it was well done. What I find unacceptable are the UBW style good ends, the "Shirou-we-will-live-happily-ever-after-and-do-mana-transfer-everyday" type of ending. I found myself bashing my head on the keyboard after reading UBW good end.
"After such an epic clash with Gilgamesh and the story closes with THIS?!"


Bleh, I find how good an ending is depends on how it was written, not how it turns out. Saying an ending is inherently better because it's tragic seems silly to me. Ever 17 had a great ending that tied everything together wonderfully, and I remember it's full ending much better than I remember the bad endings of that game.

If I am to use Tsukihime as an example, I like Kohaku's ending more than I did Akiha's normal or true, because it wrapped the story up and tied everything together well. This is all just my opinion of course, but I would advise keeping an open mind for endings whether tragic OR happy. After all, do you really need to watch someone die to have a good time? Or is how you enjoy an ending really dependent on how much it makes sense or how well it is written?

Also, am I the only one who thinks that Rin is the best match for shirou?
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 26th, 2008, 7:28 am

Yes, you are right, whether the ending of a story is tragic or happy is not indicative of its quality. However, my point is aimed more towards those who zealously trying to graft a good ending onto a fine tragedy. I doubt Romeo and Juliet will have the same emotional impact if you turn the ending into "happily ever after". In the same vein, forcing a typical happy ending between Sabre and Shirou will, in my opinion, ruin the Fate route and turn it into a subpar story. In the previous post I used the anti-climatic good end of UBW as an example, because it failed to wrap up the emotion-laden resolution of the conflict between Shirou and Archer.

I don't enjoy watching others suffer, nor do most of the people. However, it is this aversion towards tragic events that allows tragedy to have a much more profound impact on our psyche. Straight forward good ends may give you a grin for a little while, but that is pretty much all it offers. I am not sure if you noticed, but even the supposed good end of Realta Nua is still very implicit, making it almost illusionary.
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 26th, 2008, 6:04 pm

@Wiiown: Nope. I also think Rin is the best match for Shirou.

@Keeper of Gil's Vault: I agree. For some reason I didn't like UBW's good ending, but I absolutely loved the True ending. It wasn't overly good in that Saber did disappear in the end, but it was a happy end where Shirou and Rin got to be together.
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Unread postby Wiiown » December 26th, 2008, 10:58 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Yes, you are right, whether the ending of a story is tragic or happy is not indicative of its quality. However, my point is aimed more towards those who zealously trying to graft a good ending onto a fine tragedy. I doubt Romeo and Juliet will have the same emotional impact if you turn the ending into "happily ever after". In the same vein, forcing a typical happy ending between Sabre and Shirou will, in my opinion, ruin the Fate route and turn it into a subpar story. In the previous post I used the anti-climatic good end of UBW as an example, because it failed to wrap up the emotion-laden resolution of the conflict between Shirou and Archer.

I don't enjoy watching others suffer, nor do most of the people. However, it is this aversion towards tragic events that allows tragedy to have a much more profound impact on our psyche. Straight forward good ends may give you a grin for a little while, but that is pretty much all it offers. I am not sure if you noticed, but even the supposed good end of Realta Nua is still very implicit, making it almost illusionary.


I agree with you for the most part. But there is a reverse of trying to graft a happy ending onto a good tragedy which is grafting tragedy onto something that is otherwise complete with a good ending to try and provoke a reaction from your own mind. I might be alone in this, but I usually remember any ending whether sad or happy as long as it was well written and made sense. I liked the fate ending more than the UBW good, however I also enjoyed the Ciel good ending from Tsukihime just as much as the fate ending, I still remember both clearly and they both left their mark on my mind.

A good tragedy is wonderful, but I find myself too often irritated at people who think good or happy endings have no value because they aren't sad or "realistic" (not talking about you) the problem with this argument is that how much sense something makes or how realistic it seems is completely subjective and yet people bash a completely fine ending because unless somebody dies, the ending doesn't "make sense". Not to mention the argument you made which is that sad endings have a bigger impact on our minds. I don't believe everyone thinks that way, and planning out a sad ending just so people will remember it and have a greater reaction to it would make you a tool as a story teller, which is why I avoid the mentality that sad = profound like the plague.

The converse is annoying too, fanboys of certain characters or pairings telling you that one route or another sucks because their favorites don't live/pair up. I just don't see the latter as often. Perhaps I am too touchy of people trying to criticize some of my favorite books/games/movies or whatever because the ending didn't suit their skewed perception. I simply ask that folks who view an ending consider it for a while and just keep an open mind. This is all simply my opinion though so take it with several grains of salt.

And yes, I am a self-righteous wind bag and make long posts, I apologize in advance.
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Unread postby JLA » December 27th, 2008, 2:57 am

Watashimo wrote:@Wiiown: Nope. I also think Rin is the best match for Shirou.

@Keeper of Gil's Vault: I agree. For some reason I didn't like UBW's good ending, but I absolutely loved the True ending. It wasn't overly good in that Saber did disappear in the end, but it was a happy end where Shirou and Rin got to be together.


Me too.
There's something about the UBW true ending that's just awesome. Maybe it seems like a more "realistic" close to the crazy situation they all went through?
Shirou is still broken inside but Rin, who is probably the most normal person compared to Sakura or Saber, is there with him so he won't become all fubar'd in the future.

Saber does kick ass, has her uber cute moments and is an outstanding example of a righteous (not in a bad way) person as a whole so she does get mega points in my book. The Fate route ending made a big impact on me too now that I remember...

GAR! I can't choose which ending I like more now! :?
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