How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

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How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

Unread postby Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 6:09 am

Come on... Shinji is very capable as a person. Although his personality sucks completely, he still has more strengths than an average high school student

Shinji had to bear intense magus training (although he was not really a success...)

He became CO-captain of the archery club through skill
He was equally as strong and fit as shiro (just too scared usually use his strength well in fights)
i believe he had his arm cut off in a route, and STILL managed to run away
he SURVIVED the heart of the holy grail
He knows how to win by playing all necessary cards, such as hostages or deals
very popular within school
Knows plenty more basics in magic history/skills/etc than shiro

Honestly if you switched out his personality to be more resistant, Shinji could very well be one of the harder masters to beat
Saying stuff like "Lol shinji's so pathetic he would die to a baby" is stupid, as shinji has every ability to easily beat any highschooler or adult in combat
It's just he lacks the ability to keep cool against higher level magus's
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Unread postby Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 6:16 am

^what he said.
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 6:19 am

I don't think they put him through any intense magic training because they KNEW he had 0 magic circuits, therefore the training would be a waste. He merely has the knowledge.
When did it say he was as fit as Shirou? Shirou trains every day to become a hero of justice, I doubt Shinji has that kind of motivation.
I don't remember his arm being cut off, but thats just me, its possible.
His flesh was deformed into a giant ball of meat, I think even Shirou would have made a better Holy Grail than him. The Holy Grail wasn't trying to destroy him, it was using him, so its nothing to say he survived it.
He knows how to play necessary cards like hostages and deals because hes a coward and can't win through conventional means - even if its possible he won't take the risk, he takes the easy way out.
Hes popular with the girls, thats it, because hes confident and has good looks.
Has knowledge of magic, thats all. He has 0 circuits and therefore needs another supply of magic power to cast (such as the book).

True, if you switched out his personality he might be better, but not by much. His magic power is weak and therefore his Servant is lacking and he can't cast decent spells. He would still be the weakest master. Shirou at least has a badass servant and a HAXXOR ability.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » December 7th, 2008, 6:22 am

everyone says that shinji would die to a baby becos he is the character everyone loves to hate. as such, everyone does exactly what this character begs others to do: make fun out of him. as a result, exaggerations and probably false statements are thrown simply in the interest of fun. c'mon, tell me you did not find any of the things said about shinji amusing? most of them are really quite funny.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 7th, 2008, 6:32 am

Yeah Shinji is better then everyone else since he now has a second thread about him now. *chuckles*
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 6:33 am

Also, I don't think anyone actually said "Shinji would lose to a baby." Most of the comments were on how Anti-GAR he was, not how weak he was. Shinji would lose to anyone with any combat training, fair and simple. Whether its high-school martial arts or what. The only thing hes good at is archery and probably school work. So far, I've yet to see him display any other skills. His magic does not count because that was all through the book, take that away and hes like a normal person with extra knowledge. I'll give up if you can specifically show me where it said Shinji had ANY sort of combat skill aside from archery.
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Unread postby supremehyren » December 7th, 2008, 6:43 am

What few people realize is....


... babies in the Nasuverse are actually incredibly powerful.

Think about it. The weaker a protagonist, the more ridiculous the person he defeats. It happened in Tsukihime(Shiki killed Roa), it happened in Fate(Shirou beat Gilgamesh), etc, etc...

In other words, if someone like Shirou could beat someone like Gil by chance(who is, say, a bazillion times stronger than him), then how could a baby have trouble with Shinji?

Probably, the baby would somehow match Neco-Arc, thanks to some plot device.
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Unread postby abscess » December 7th, 2008, 7:08 am

Wow! Another thread about this guy??

Watashimo wrote:Also, I don't think anyone actually said "Shinji would lose to a baby." Most of the comments were on how Anti-GAR he was, not how weak he was. Shinji would lose to anyone with any combat training, fair and simple. Whether its high-school martial arts or what. The only thing hes good at is archery and probably school work. So far, I've yet to see him display any other skills. His magic does not count because that was all through the book, take that away and hes like a normal person with extra knowledge. I'll give up if you can specifically show me where it said Shinji had ANY sort of combat skill aside from archery.

Very much agreed. If we count out the Grail War, he is only a common person. As a common person he is just a simple guy. It is true that he has knowledge of who knows how many things in magic, but he isn't capable of using any of whatever it is he learned if he doesn't have any external help, so all of his knowledge is completely useless. I don't say that he could lose to a baby, but to anyone who has basic knowledge of how to fight (protect your head from heavy blows, step back, attack if you can, counter-attack, etc, etc.) he will most likely be the one to lose. Outside of archery, we are never told that he ever did any training in martial arts, so we can assume he didn't.

Kid-Wolf wrote:Yeah Shinji is better then everyone else since he now has a second thread about him now. *chuckles*

I'm inclining to say that that's his real power, to make people disagree in his level of crappinness and making them argue in the process :lol:
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Unread postby xthr » December 7th, 2008, 7:20 am

Ahh, but you see, Shinji has already won. With all these threads and discussions about him, he is already more "popular" (or perhaps infamous) than MANY TM characters.

...
...
...Isn't it sad sacchin? if this continues, more people might vote for Shinji on a popularity poll as a joke than you just because more people know about shinji
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Unread postby Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 7:56 am

abscess wrote: Outside of archery, we are never told that he ever did any training in martial arts, so we can assume he didn't.


Its stated by Tohsaka that mages are given combat training in modern times. She learned extensive martial arts during her practice of becoming a mage. As the Matou houshold is a very successful (until recent) mage family, it should be assumed he still went through many of the same process's of Tohsaka.

Shinji has extensive knowledge of magic, and although he does not have a magic circuit in him, he probably could do well with the Artificial circuits similar to what shiro has been using. Even with the book, he still needs to use a magic circuit to create the spell as needed. He could have been using a faux one.

On any one on one fight with an average person, i also would assume Shinji would win, as his family status and mage training would grant him the chances to win.

He is similar to shiro in physical form, as he constantly practices every day for his club. Shiro every morning does a few situps/pushups/etc... which is similar to his common drill for archery.

So far, stating shat Shinji only uses hostages because he is a coward? Shinji is similar to Kiritsugu (in SOME ways). He KNOWS he cant get into a battle he cannot win, unlike shiro in 60 bad endings... He will take every advantage possible, which makes him more of a magus than Tohsaka or Shiro in that sort

Anyways, Shinji, despite being despicable, has a lot of traits that can make him a decent threat
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Unread postby abscess » December 7th, 2008, 8:26 am

I disagree. Sakura was the one chosen as the succesor of the Matou, since she is the only one in the family capable of using magic (not counting Zouken). Training Shinji physically or magically would have been an utter waste of time. He is seen as a burden instead of a useful asset, he didn't know Sakura was the one chosen to be the succesor, so I assume he didn't undergo the proper training a modern magus normally does. Even if he did, he would still be of average level as a normal person. Any other person that would excercise his/her body can still beat him. Now, if we talk about a person that practices martial arts or some combat training and does it daily, he would get beaten to a pulp.

About fake circuits, I don't know if he did it or not or even if he could but, wouldn't it be needed some sort of magical backup in order to make a fake magic circuit? Like using prana or something in some way, I mean (I don't know that's why I'm asking). So, in this matter I can't really say anything.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 8:41 am

abscess wrote:I disagree. Sakura was the one chosen as the succesor of the Matou, since she is the only one in the family capable of using magic (not counting Zouken). Training Shinji physically or magically would have been an utter waste of time. He is seen as a burden instead of a useful asset, he didn't know Sakura was the one chosen to be the succesor, so I assume he didn't undergo the proper training a modern magus normally does. Even if he did, he would still be of average level as a normal person. Any other person that would excercise his/her body can still beat him. Now, if we talk about a person that practices martial arts or some combat training and does it daily, he would get beaten to a pulp.

About fake circuits, I don't know if he did it or not or even if he could but, wouldn't it be needed some sort of magical backup in order to make a fake magic circuit? Like using prana or something in some way, I mean (I don't know that's why I'm asking). So, in this matter I can't really say anything.


Shinji was raised at a successor of the matou family, its stated in all the routes

Its just that the ended up having to use sakura in the end because shinji failed

Also he did go through standard training, although he just was not gifted a magic circuit at birth
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Unread postby Vhailor » December 7th, 2008, 12:18 pm

I agree with Rikh. I mean, Shinji is acting more like a master than Shiro or Tohsaka and because of that, he is more dangerous. This is a war, after all, and he is not in a strong position. If he wasn't so impulsive... But he is broken so too bad.
In fact, i thought it is quit a shame he doesn't have any magic circuit because he would be an interesting caracter. But when he learn the truth, he broke and began to lose confidence and that leads to the end we know : complex, resentment, ect ect.

I think Shinji could be a charismatic character but he is a failure. The other way to look at him is Perseus, who is describe like a Shinji who succeed. I won t talk about it because i don t read F/HA but he seems to be quit awesome (He faces the Gorgon alone :o)
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Unread postby Inverted » December 7th, 2008, 12:36 pm

Rikh wrote: Shinji is similar to Kiritsugu (in SOME ways)

*Puts a bullet through Rikh's brain*

However on your points I agree except the Matou successor one. He did receive some training as a Magus successor would receive but the core training was given to Sakura .

On another note post-UBW Shinji might actually have some magic circuits as the closed magic circuits ,traces of which were acquired through family blood were forced to reopen due to the tremendous power of the Grail.
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 7th, 2008, 1:47 pm

Rikh wrote:Shinji was raised at a successor of the matou family, its stated in all the routes

Its just that the ended up having to use sakura in the end because shinji failed

Also he did go through standard training, although he just was not gifted a magic circuit at birth

Nah, you're making too many assumptions.
As HF progresses, we get to see a scene with Shinji remembering how was that he learned about magic and that Sakura was the true successor, and the only "training" he says he went through is reading the books around the house and feeling special because of that. We're even told that as soon as he discovered the basement he was absolutely ignored by Zouken and his own father. It doesn't ever say that he was trained, even less physically trained to be a successor.


Also, I dunno about Shinji's archery skills. The only one to talk about them is Shinji himself, and we know he's quick to brag about nothing. As far as I know he was made subcaptain because of his recruiting skills (being popular with the girls) and not his archery skills, or at least that was not the main reason.
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 7th, 2008, 3:22 pm

matthewfarenheit is totally right here.

Shinji had no training besides book learning, just like matthewfarenheit said, it was only KNOWLEDGE that he gained over the years, and still, not being able to put it into practice because he CAN'T use the skills makes him even more worthless.

On another point, Sakura gave him everything, I really don't know where you got the fake magic circuit point, Rikh.
Shinji was able to use a lower grade version of SAKURA's magic, using shadows with that book, so maybe it gave him a limited use of her ability.
The only reason Shinji even got a chance was because Sakura didn't feel like fighting and pitied her poor poor Nii-san.
Even knowing all this in the back of his mind, he refused to see that he was just a fake master all around, and bragged whenever it LOOKED like he was in a superior position (believing he was superior to Gilgamesh? Ha! Fool should have known his place after that battle with Berserker, ESPECIALLY since Kotomine didn't even give him command spells).

Saying that he was popular with the girls only shows their shallowness and inability to see what type of person he was.
Plus, he was given many, many chances to wake up and smell the flowers to see he was being used in UBW, and, even while he was trying to rape Rin, she was trying to help him wake up.
It took him getting a taste of what its like to become the grail to wake his ass up.
Just way too many points I can bring up to show he was utterly worthless due to his hubris and incompetence.


So to that, I'd say he was pretty much a pathetic person all around.
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Unread postby inferno_flamex » December 7th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Would it be suffice to say that...

*summarised post*

I know that shinji is a human being (at least in an anime)...
But I REFUSE to awknoledge him as one?
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Unread postby Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 3:56 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote:
Shinji had no training besides book learning, just like matthewfarenheit said, it was only KNOWLEDGE that he gained over the years, and still, not being able to put it into practice because he CAN'T use the skills makes him even more worthless.

On another point, Sakura gave him everything, I really don't know where you got the fake magic circuit point, Rikh.
kiritsugu gave shirou fake magic circuits; he didn't know shirou was a magus back then. and shirou kept using that fake circuit until he learnt how to control his own. I don't see why zouken cannot do the same to shinji; he has that d*ck worm thingie.



Saying that he was popular with the girls only shows their shallowness and inability to see what type of person he was.
Plus, he was given many, many chances to wake up and smell the flowers to see he was being used in UBW, and, even while he was trying to rape Rin, she was trying to help him wake up.
It took him getting a taste of what its like to become the grail to wake his ass up.
Just way too many points I can bring up to show he was utterly worthless due to his hubris and incompetence.
you know, he wouldn't have been like that if only he were brought up by a different family, kiritsugu for example. shinji is a magus complex and honour-seeker, as evidenced by even with only the position of vice-captain, he dared to step up beyond mitsuzuri by saying he's captain. and sakura "usurped" all those honours from him; his position as a heir, magus, everything. at least from his point of view. how do you feel if suddenly an adopted child usurp all your possession, your position in the family?

zouken was never a grandfatherly figure to him; all he cared about is to sustain matou lineage (like most magi family do). even if he has to take up another's child. so it was inevitable all his attention was focused to turning sakura as the strongest heir possible, leaving none for shinji. do you understand how it feels to be neglected and despised just because you were born like that?

all he crave for is honour, attention. if you take them away from him, he would have nothing left. do you now know how it feels like?

see, bad guy isn't born evil. the evils are the ones making him one.
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Unread postby Inverted » December 7th, 2008, 6:48 pm

But what he did was horrendous. There are no excuses for his course of action.
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Unread postby Altima of the Gates » December 7th, 2008, 6:50 pm

Raitei wrote:
Altima of the Gates wrote:
Shinji had no training besides book learning, just like matthewfarenheit said, it was only KNOWLEDGE that he gained over the years, and still, not being able to put it into practice because he CAN'T use the skills makes him even more worthless.

On another point, Sakura gave him everything, I really don't know where you got the fake magic circuit point, Rikh.
kiritsugu gave shirou fake magic circuits; he didn't know shirou was a magus back then. and shirou kept using that fake circuit until he learnt how to control his own. I don't see why zouken cannot do the same to shinji; he has that d*ck worm thingie.



Saying that he was popular with the girls only shows their shallowness and inability to see what type of person he was.
Plus, he was given many, many chances to wake up and smell the flowers to see he was being used in UBW, and, even while he was trying to rape Rin, she was trying to help him wake up.
It took him getting a taste of what its like to become the grail to wake his ass up.
Just way too many points I can bring up to show he was utterly worthless due to his hubris and incompetence.
you know, he wouldn't have been like that if only he were brought up by a different family, kiritsugu for example. shinji is a magus complex and honour-seeker, as evidenced by even with only the position of vice-captain, he dared to step up beyond mitsuzuri by saying he's captain. and sakura "usurped" all those honours from him; his position as a heir, magus, everything. at least from his point of view. how do you feel if suddenly an adopted child usurp all your possession, your position in the family?

zouken was never a grandfatherly figure to him; all he cared about is to sustain matou lineage (like most magi family do). even if he has to take up another's child. so it was inevitable all his attention was focused to turning sakura as the strongest heir possible, leaving none for shinji. do you understand how it feels to be neglected and despised just because you were born like that?

all he crave for is honour, attention. if you take them away from him, he would have nothing left. do you now know how it feels like?

see, bad guy isn't born evil. the evils are the ones making him one.


1.) Its not actually a "fake" magic circuit but the incorrect way of activation. All you should need to do is make a switch in your mind and turn it on and off, but what Shirou was doing was putting a foreign existence in his body by inciting his body to say "there is a magic circuit there." Its a dangerous process that no sane magus would try, as the response to the rejection would be horrendous.

2.) Whether or not he had the so called "noble lineage" on his back or not, he rejected people close to him in exchange for a chance to gain notieriety from people he didn't even respect. Even after all that torture inflicted upon her, Sakura didn't hate his guts, even after all he did to Shirou, Shirou didn't hate his guts. He may have been treated harshly (a lot less harsh than Sakura in my opinion), but he was shown a fierce amount of compassion by others that he ignored entirely. When he did find out what was going on behind the scenes, instead of being repulsed that the inheritor of Matou had to go through such a thing (the body augmentation by the worms), he craved that position ever still. Its complete and total idiocy. If he had gotten along better with Sakura, he might have spared her just a little of horrible existence she had to go through. The people around him may not understand that he felt he had a lot on his shoulders as the legitimate successor of the family, but he also didn't care for the troubles he caused others.

Hell if he wanted the position so bad, Zouken should have tried it. Then he probably wouldn't have wanted it anymore.
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