How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 9:17 pm

Watashimo wrote:So far Rikh and Raitei keep stating the exact same reasons over and over for why Shinji isn't an epic fail and everyone destroys their arguments with logic. In all the Shinji-defending posts I've only noticed like one or two variations in your points or a different wording of existing points. Let me restate again why Shinji is normal. I've only posted it like 20 times and yet the defense team seems to always skip over my posts.

1.Hes only popular because hes (supposedly) good-looking. -Yah, his charisma and attitude that he puts up also is a factor here-
2.He has 0 magic circuits and only has magic knowledge. -Yet he is able to cast spells... with or without support, he still requires ability
3.His ONLY fighting skill is Archery. - And magic
4.He never received formal magus training, as stated in HF. - Ok... well he knows as much as the average magus, and he has learned how to use magic... although he cannot physically do so
5.He would never make fake circuits because NOBODY (except maybe Kiritsugu) teaches that because the risk far outweighs the gain (the circuits are only TEMPORARY after all, even if Shinji made one, he would have ONE magic circuit for a short period of time) - Not to mention Shirou and Rin would NEVER teach him. - Umm... the fact is, he is able to. If he applies the circuits correctly, he can cast a limited amount of spells for combat use. And i am just stating that IF he was on GOOD terms with shiro and rin, they might teach him if zoken wouldnt... it was just an example
6.He is far too arrogant to effectively use pathetic methods like hostages. - He is arrogant, but the fact is he puts up a horrible act. Shinji wont kill people he cares about (at least not himself) . He will spend more time to convert them to his side
7.He is far too cowardly to effectively fight at all. -Umm... he is only cowardly when he loses... And honestly, can you say if your in a lose lose situation, you would not react cowardly as well?
8.Shinji is Shinji is Shinji is Shinji. His bad up-bringing does not justify his actions - Excuse me? of course it does not justify his actions... but it is the 95% influencing factor in them. Shinji grew up in a twisted life style filled with inferiority complexes and regret. Of course he is given a chance to become something great in life... but that chance is literally ripped from him. Nothing justifies his actions, but his actions CAN BE EXPLAINED

Im not performing an unlimited quote works again... so you can read edits i did to your post

Shinji is NOT better than Tohsaka or Shirou combat wise. He cannot even hope to match a servant. Shinji however just has more ability than people say he does. Shinji at the end of UBW starts becoming a much better person after learning his lesson. Although Shinji has extremely limited potential as a mage, who can only use fake temporary circuits... he still has the ability to be a magus

Shinji can choose the most likely-to-win outcome, and he will keep his pride even on defeat. Even if he is cowardly and runs away, at least he is able to survive and come back again with a next attack. If you were defeated so easily, such as in UBW... i guarantee you that YOU would NOT go back and fight like Shinji would. Shinji went back and fought with a servant he had never met, nor known the abilities of. Shinji has bravery in many cases.

Shinji is a normal person who... like shiro has lost something important to him. Shiro if affected the same way shinji was, would turn out exactly the same. You SAW how powerful the influence of others around you was in HF. It mad shiro turn into a person who accepted loving and protecting a killer... on HF terms, shiro was much more evil than shinji, as he knew what happened, and refused to kill sakura. I dont know about you, but Shinji was NOT responsible for the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of people (although he was responsible for weakening of several people, and damage from spells during various routes)
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 9:30 pm

Shinji raped Sakura, and made her live a living hell, all for Zoukens plan, and he knew it.

He only worsened the situation. If you remove Shinji from the Visual Novel, it can actually be done without him. He's a minor plot device, with little importance, besides making you hate him.
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 9th, 2008, 9:33 pm

Well there's that and well...
Sakura killing him in her own route to make her go insane. Other then that it might be more of a major plot device then you would think if you askk me. I mean who would be the one to make her go into her fully Dark mode?
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 9:36 pm

Aha, what're you talking about? Heavens Feel was a route that was never made, and as such, we cannot begin to know what happened in it. It was only talked about.
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Watashimo » December 9th, 2008, 9:38 pm

Wow mmk. You cannot consider magic as an ability for him at all. The fact that he casted magic at all is a RARE SPECIAL case that ONLY occurred because of that special book, which is rare in itself or is created by Sakura's command spell (it was never directly stated I don't think). Good looks != Charisma. Charisma is a combination of good looks and personality, but its MOSTLY personality. Girls love him yes, but thats purely because of his good looks. I think the only REAL friend Shinji has is Shirou. Thats not saying much.

I'm telling you, Shinji would never be able to make fake circuits because I don't think hardly ANYONE ever considers it, EVER, and I doubt it would ever come up in conversation even if Shinji and Shirou did become better friends. Not to mention I don't think Shinji is strong enough as a person to risk his life to make a 1 or 2 magic circuits that last for a very short period of time. Edit: Even Rin said she most likely couldn't do it.

Shinji's charisma is so bad he could never bring anyone to his side. Even in unfavorable situations he STILL tries to assert his authority, which would likely cause him to be killed on the spot.

Shinji is the only person in the all of the Grail Wars who has used the church as a safe-haven, I'd say thats pretty cowardly. As for signing up with another Servant? I guarantee you most Masters would. It has nothing to do with if you know them or not, you have no idea how your Servant will act when you originally summon them, so its no different.

As for explaining your actions - ANYONE can explain themselves because everyone has a reason for what they do, so it really makes no difference. What matters is if your actions are justifiable.

I don't see how you can ever justify him being brave. Arrogance, greed, and anger != bravery.

Shirou was not responsible for the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of people either. Don't try to pin it on Shirou or Sakura as it was all Angra Manyu. Shirou just wanted to protect the one he loved and Sakura just wanted to live. Neither of those are a sin. It was the indirect cause of it all, but that in no way makes them responsible. If there was a giant crowd of people and there was a drunk driver zooming straight towards them and the only way to stop it was with your car(which you are currently driving), are you responsible because you didn't?
Last edited by Watashimo on December 9th, 2008, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 9:40 pm

the fact is, everybody only thinks shinji is utterly pathetic because of his attitude. The fact is he isnt, his attitude and his cruel actions are.

Also without Shinji... lets list some events

Shiro would not fight rider in almost all the routes
Gilgamesh would not have a faux master to run around in
In UBW the fake grail might have been the real grail
the whole school fights would be gone
Sakura would have not gone insane, as she only would have gone through the worm torture instead of the rape torture (or she might have... but i am sure it would have taken longer)

Shiro would have DIED... yes died. Without shinji sparring shiro on various occasions to make pacts with him, shiro would have been killed
Tohsaka probably would have been killed by gilgamesh, or USED for the grail in UBW

Honestly.. shinji's character is desperately needed. And i don't care if you hate him (I hate him too), the fact is you cant deny him

Watashimo wrote:Wow mmk. You cannot consider magic as an ability for him at all. The fact that he casted magic at all is a RARE SPECIAL case that ONLY occurred because of that special book, which is rare in itself or is created by Sakura's command spell (it was never directly stated I don't think). Good looks != Charisma. Charisma is a combination of good looks and personality, but its MOSTLY personality. Girls love him yes, but thats purely because of his good looks. I think the only REAL friend Shinji has is Shirou. Thats not saying much.

I'm telling you, Shinji would never be able to make fake circuits because I don't think hardly ANYONE ever considers it, EVER, and I doubt it would ever come up in conversation even if Shinji and Shirou did become better friends. Not to mention I don't think Shinji is strong enough as a person to risk his life to make a 1 or 2 magic circuits that last for a very short period of time.

Shinji's charisma is so bad he could never bring anyone to his side. Even in unfavorable situations he STILL tries to assert his authority, which would likely cause him to be killed on the spot.

Shinji is the only person in the all of the Grail Wars who has used the church as a safe-haven, I'd say thats pretty cowardly. As for signing up with another Servant? I guarantee you most Masters would. It has nothing to do with if you know them or not, you have no idea how your Servant will act when you originally summon them, so its no different.

As for explaining your actions - ANYONE can explain themselves because everyone has a reason for what they do, so it really makes no difference. What matters is if your actions are justifiable.

I don't see how you can ever justify him being brave. Arrogance, greed, and anger != bravery.

Shirou was not responsible for the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of people either. Don't try to pin it on Shirou or Sakura as it was all Angra Manyu. Shirou just wanted to protect the one he loved and Sakura just wanted to live. Neither of those are a sin. It was the indirect cause of it all, but that in no way makes them responsible. If there was a giant crowd of people and there was a drunk driver zooming straight towards them and the only way to stop it was with your car(which you are currently driving), are you responsible because you didn't?


lets address your points
1) Shiro could have NEVER made that spell no-matter what as he cannot do anything other than what his Reality Marble allows him to.
2) Umm hardly anyone? Tohsaka, Kiritsugu, Archer (whom is shiro though...), and Shiro know of fake circuits... Also it is STATED in the game that YOU ONLY HAVE TO CREATE A CIRCUIT ONCE. by none other than Tohsaka herself. I am not going to really go through the trouble of posting a screenshot unless you absolutely require it to see proof... Shinji can create circuits, just if he does it wont be much use for the matou line since it wont carry on to the next generation, nor will it provide him with innate magic abilities
3) Girls dont care about people just because of their looks... Its 80% personality and 10% appearance and 10% situation in the Real world. Shinji has charisma around those he cares, or wants be hang around. Shinji would NOT be popular in school if he didnt have a charismatic cool natured side to him, which he vividly displays in school. Whether this is his internal character or not, shinji does have charisma
4) If YOU were NEARLY KILLED... would you honestly want to go back into the thing that nearly killed you? Shinji went in with pure bravery. He wanted revenge, and he was brave enough to risk his life to obtain that revenge. I say although lucky for him, he has shown bravery. Bravery also is not doing something impossible, its doing something your scared of.
Going to the church alone is bravery, because he is conquering his own pride by doing so. He tossed his pride away to see kotomine to be safe and protect himself (Which is what NORMAL people should do...) He was very brave for accepting the offer to go back into the hell hole where he almost died in

5) re-read my post. i never said his actions were justifiable, i just stated that his actions can be explained.
6) ok... ill phrase this so you can understand a point of view other than the one you have right now.
Lets take chaos;head for example. The protagonist is Nishijou Takumi, and he is "Believed" to be a serial murderer. a girl walks up to him and KNOWS he is not mentally responsible for it, but she knows he is still the cause. this is exactly whats happening here

Shiro KNOWS sakura is a murder. Shirou KNOWS that sakura is conscious of her murdering. Shiro KNOWS sakura hates living. yet shiro still refuses to allow her to die happily and preventing a large amount of his city from dying. Honestly shiro is heartless there. He only cared about his own beliefs instead of protecting thousands of people from a murderer. Sakura knew she was a murderer, yet she could not do anything about it. Shiro knew she killed, yet he refused to stop the problem.

Honestly i loved HF... it was a great route, but i am just bringing up an opposite point of view saying that things can be viewed differently... Im not saying im saying shiro's horrible... im just saying that nobody is truly good, nor nobody is truly bad
Last edited by Rikh on December 9th, 2008, 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Watashimo » December 9th, 2008, 9:43 pm

If any character was removed from the game it would change it considerably, but it wouldn't make Shirou or Rin lose. The writers would just change it to make them win by a different method. Hehe :P
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 9:54 pm

i edited my previous post to show my counter argument against your statement :)

dont take it as flaming though, i just want to get my point across =P
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Mkilbride » December 9th, 2008, 9:58 pm

Looks only count 10%? LOL, you have NOT been outside, eh?

Looks count for at least half or more in current society.

Take for example Jessica Simpson or Pamela Anderson. Ugly people by nature, but everyone wants them, despite knowing how they really are.
User avatar
Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 10:04 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Looks only count 10%? LOL, you have NOT been outside, eh?

Looks count for at least half or more in current society.

Take for example Jessica Simpson or Pamela Anderson. Ugly people by nature, but everyone wants them, despite knowing how they really are.


I have been outside.. this is what the real world is like man. Looks give you a boost... but its your attitude that defines you in the eyes of others...
I dont know what conception you have with society, but know this.
People like Jessica Simpson and Pamela Anderson are regarded because they have gotten to that point through their own charisma in life. They are simply not born models. They are scouted, they apeal to higher ups, and they get their ability to be shown to the world. Their popularity is based off their charisma with those they want to appeal to.
Charisma does not mean a person is always good... charisma in basic terms is when you can get people on your side easier.

So anyways, their looks are reguarded, but their popularity is through their work with others to get their image out... the they had that 10% Charisma and 10% Situation factor on their side... and people never see the 80% of their personality.
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Watashimo » December 9th, 2008, 10:11 pm

Ok. Lemme explain Circuits. As like any other organ, the number of Magic Circuits that one possesses is determined at birth and cannot decrease or increase naturally.

Magic Circuits are "opened" when prana is run through them for the first time. From that point on, the user can activate them at will through the use of a mental trigger (This is what it meant when it said "created once").

Prior to the Fifth Grail War, Shirou believed that he had to "make" a new Circuit every time he wanted to perform Magecraft. In each attempt to do so, he temporary (and inadvertently) converted parts of his nerves into makeshift Magic Circuits. If Shirou got to keep all of those circuits he "made", he would have so many it wouldn't even be funny. He has 27 in-born circuits, damn high even for a magus.

Also. Rin said that Shirou gets all of his materials from inside himself, so he could potentially be good at everything. Not to mention she is teaching him all the basics, so its not like he could NEVER do it, he just doesn't know it.

Ahem, I guarantee you that the girls Shinji has are only after him for his looks. Most girls are bitches that go for looks or money, its a fact of life. (Nobody take offense, I said MOST not ALL) The only reason he is nice to the girls is because they are all lovey-dovey for him. The moment anyone displeases Shinji, he loses any and all Charisma. As proven by the way he absolutely loathes and lusts after Rin even though she only insulted him a few times. (she insulted him more throughout the game)

Shinji's cowardice is greater than his pride, thats why he goes to the Church. However, he curses himself the moment he finds out hes the only one whose ever used it. As for going back into the war for vengeance, that was not bravery. Shinji automatically gets his arrogance back when he gets even a little bit of power. And Kotomine told him that there was an excellent Servant looking for a Master as well - or something along those lines. As for any other Master, they would have definitely gone back into the Grail War, I'm sure of it.

Explaining his actions doesn't mean anything is what I was trying to point out.

Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder. I guess you could probably call me heartless too because I would probably let thousands of people die if it meant saving my friends. I treasure my friends more than the lives of random strangers.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Kid-Wolf » December 9th, 2008, 10:34 pm

Indeed and with the ending of UBW
Shinji survives and is kind of a nicer person since he lost a lot of memories since he became the "Tainted Grail" if you will. With that in mind it could be a lot easier to except him to live without being a total jackass after that if you ask me.
User avatar
Kid-Wolf
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: August 31st, 2008, 8:08 pm
Location: Inside the Depletion Garden

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 10:48 pm

Fine looks like my point is not getting across...
look out freaking cool shinji is guys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HofqtcpqXoU

j/k... oh well... im getting tired counter arguing this :| you win
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 10th, 2008, 12:18 am

I always picture Shinji as what Gilgamesh would be like if he was stripped of his Gate of Babylon and divinity.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby gexer64 » December 10th, 2008, 4:21 am

I know how to solve this....

Angry bears for everyone! (the angry bears are on fire....)
In a single answer lies a thousand questions.
User avatar
gexer64
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 342
Joined: August 9th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Unread postby negum » December 10th, 2008, 9:12 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I always picture Shinji as what Gilgamesh would be like if he was stripped of his Gate of Babylon and divinity.

I had the exact same thought. :)
Shinji is like a powerless Gilgamesh.
Internet-Rule 20: "Nothing is to be taken (too) seriously." <-- So true. :mrgreen:
User avatar
negum
Crack Addic!
 
Posts: 186
Joined: March 27th, 2008, 10:54 pm

Unread postby Vhailor » December 10th, 2008, 1:06 pm

Well, Medusa said about Shinji that he is like Perseus (And this guy seems qui awesome). I still think Shinji could be very charismatic if he wasn't broken and if his acting is despicable, there is still something in him that makes me say "tooooo bad, such a waste.".
Vhailor
Addict
 
Posts: 79
Joined: November 11th, 2008, 3:08 pm

Unread postby AddleBoy » December 10th, 2008, 9:54 pm

Vhailor wrote:Well, Medusa said about Shinji that he is like Perseus


Was Perseus the Greek hero who killed the griffin, and tried to ride Pegasus up to the heavens to become a god, but was struck down by Zeus because of his arrogance? Or am I thinking about something else.... <_<
Then you realize... That there is no loli. And it's not the loli you're molesting, it's yourself.
User avatar
AddleBoy
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 267
Joined: January 16th, 2008, 4:00 am
Location: At the end of the world, upon the Hill of Swords.

Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 11th, 2008, 1:38 am

I thought Perseus was a complete douche bag in Nasuverse? Isn't the only reason he killed Rider that he hauled a truck-load of Noble Phantasms that the Gods granted him? I don't think Rider was complimenting Shinji with that statement at all, she was kind of saying Shinji was weak and only relying on materialistic advantages rather than himself. Ya, on a second thought, it makes sense. Shirou is the polar opposite. He relies completely on himself, hence "I am the bone of my sword". He makes swords out of himself.
User avatar
Keeper of Gil's Vault
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 501
Joined: July 15th, 2007, 2:49 pm

Unread postby abscess » December 11th, 2008, 2:41 am

Perseus was the hero that killed Medusa. He is known for some other things, but what is related to Medusa is that he killed her, along with her sisters (I think). He had the aid of the Gods, Hermes gave him a sword made of adamantine, Athena a polished bronze shield and Hades a helmet of invisibility. The reason why did Perseus killed, I don't know. Maybe he just did it for the lulz or praise or something, I can't remember.

Bellerophon was the one that rode pegasus. From what I've read, Perseus, along with Bellerophon and Cadmus were the greatest of heroes before Hercules/Heracles came.

I imagine that Rider meant that she despised Shinji as much as Perseus. I dunno if Perseus was an ass-hat in the nasuverse. Is that said somewhere?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
User avatar
abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron