How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

Unread postby Drakron » December 7th, 2008, 9:14 pm

Shiro was creating a magic circuit very time instead of activating the one he created, that was stupid because it was pointless ... once its created it only need to be activated.

Kiritsugu did not given Shiro anything he did not had, Shiro had a natural talent towards magic by having a magic circuit, the only thing Kiritsugu did was "delicious Avalon, you must eat it" and very basic training.
Drakron
Posting more than n00bs
 
Posts: 26
Joined: February 16th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Unread postby Shikiller » December 7th, 2008, 9:18 pm

Hehehehe ,awesome troll.
7/10
Shikiller
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 288
Joined: April 13th, 2007, 1:58 pm
Location: Argentina

Unread postby Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 11:44 pm

I'm glad some people agree with me on how normal Shinji is... I'm curious to know what gave you the idea that Shinji had combat training and even the idea that Kiritsugu gave Shirou the fake circuits when it clearly states that Shirou is making them like 10000000 times in the game (which could very potentially be fatal, and not to mention its stated that Shirou would be thought of as a heretic if a normal magus found out.) ^^;;;
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 11:54 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote:
1.) Its not actually a "fake" magic circuit but the incorrect way of activation. All you should need to do is make a switch in your mind and turn it on and off, but what Shirou was doing was putting a foreign existence in his body by inciting his body to say "there is a magic circuit there." Its a dangerous process that no sane magus would try, as the response to the rejection would be horrendous.
Shirou, however, originally made the mistake of thinking he had to make a circuit each time instead of turning one on; extremely dangerous as it runs the risk of blowing himself apart if he screwed up. Kiritsugu also used his circuits in the same way, supposedly, or at least didn't realize that Shirou was doing this. Because he didn't know that he just had to make a circuit once in order to be able to use it, most of his 27 circuits had been "sleeping". As a result, his normal nerves were becoming his circuits. Opening and activating one of these sleeping circuits by force caused it to enter a state of shock, and temporarily screwed up his own nervous system. Self-mutilation might have been what helped lead Shirou to his brand of thaumaturgy. Lineages and magi do not try to increase the circuits of a heir after birth.
it's a "fake circuit", in some way. kiritsugu didn't realize shirou was a magus from the beginning; he miht have been the one misleadin shirou with such process.

2.) Whether or not he had the so called "noble lineage" on his back or not, he rejected people close to him in exchange for a chance to gain notieriety from people he didn't even respect. Even after all that torture inflicted upon her, Sakura didn't hate his guts, even after all he did to Shirou, Shirou didn't hate his guts. He may have been treated harshly (a lot less harsh than Sakura in my opinion), but he was shown a fierce amount of compassion by others that he ignored entirely. When he did find out what was going on behind the scenes, instead of being repulsed that the inheritor of Matou had to go through such a thing (the body augmentation by the worms), he craved that position ever still. Its complete and total idiocy. If he had gotten along better with Sakura, he might have spared her just a little of horrible existence she had to go through. The people around him may not understand that he felt he had a lot on his shoulders as the legitimate successor of the family, but he also didn't care for the troubles he caused others.
a lot less harsh, physically. but apparently his mental burden is greater than that; having an adopted sister usurping his righteous position as the heir of the makiri. shinji is a bit... childish. and naive. he had no idea what's really going on in the world of magi; magi killing magi, as evidenced by his lack of understanding when shirou said he would cut his arm off and kill him. he's like... a kid, curious kid that won't back off until he experienced the pain himself.

Hell if he wanted the position so bad, Zouken should have tried it. Then he probably wouldn't have wanted it anymore.
and that's the point; zouken's just too reluctant to give it a try.

Hehehehe ,awesome troll.
7/10
didn't you realize you just posted one yourself?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby Drakron » December 8th, 2008, 12:52 am

I was under the impression everyone had magic circuits considering how they are part of the soul, it was that the Matou line degenerated to the point said circuits became useless in terms of being able to use magic.

Shirou is a terrible magus (the only thing he can do is strengthening), his affinity is swords and his ability is projection ... its the reality marble that together with his affinity and ability that work incredible well.
Drakron
Posting more than n00bs
 
Posts: 26
Joined: February 16th, 2008, 7:15 pm

Unread postby Watashimo » December 8th, 2008, 12:56 am

Drakron wrote:I was under the impression everyone had magic circuits considering how they are part of the soul, it was that the Matou line degenerated to the point said circuits became useless in terms of being able to use magic.

Shirou is a terrible magus (the only thing he can do is strengthening), his affinity is swords and his ability is projection ... its the reality marble that together with his affinity and ability that work incredible well.


His ability isn't projecting. His ability is "putting shape to his mind." Strengthening and projecting are just by-products of it. Considering a reality marble is an extremely advanced magic, I'd have to say Shirou is actually a damn good magus, hes just VERY limited in what he can do. There are some people who are jacks-of-all-trades and then theres Shirou who is a master at one thing.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby abscess » December 8th, 2008, 1:15 am

I'm still very confused... I've read that Shiki's eyes have magic circuits and that's why he is capable of seing those lines, but I've alos read that they are stored in the soul.... so.. there are two kinds? spiritual and physical? does the difference really matter?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
User avatar
abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread postby Watashimo » December 8th, 2008, 1:19 am

To clear up any and all misunderstandings in this thread.

Type-Moon Wikia wrote:Strictly speaking, the Magic Circuits reside within the magus's soul and what is found on the body is just a physical expression of them that stretches itself throughout the body in a fashion similar to the nervous system. They are composed of core components, which are the actual Circuits so to say, and bypasses that connect those components to the brain. Magic Circuits do not change and once damaged they cannot be repaired. Because organic activity is necessary for the operation of Circuits, it is a common mistake to think that they are literally a part of the magus body.

Still, the Circuits are ultimately something unnatural for the human body and their activity will cause pain and numbness to the magus. Their very presence in the human body is something uncommon and an ordinary person will have little to none.
Prior to the Fifth Grail War, Emiya Shirou believed that he had to "make" a new Circuit every time he wanted to perform Magecraft. In each attempt to do so, he temporary (and inadvertently) converted parts of his nerves into makeshift Magic Circuits. A very dangerous procedure, as failure would result in his body breaking down from the inside out and even with success the resulting pain would be comparable to inserting a hot iron rod into the spine.
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

Unread postby Nerroth » December 8th, 2008, 1:33 am

To quote a phrase a certain hero once borrowed from someone he knew:

It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.



No matter how you want to dress it up, that fucker hurt Sakura terribly.


He can go and rot.
User avatar
Nerroth
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 285
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 1:35 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Unread postby Shikiller » December 8th, 2008, 1:37 am

as evidenced by his lack of understanding when shirou said he would cut his arm off and kill him. he's like... a kid

He gets confused with the arm thing because he didn't know about command seals, as he uses a book, not because he didn't know about the world of magi, HF clearly tells that he knew.

Nerroth wrote:To quote a phrase a certain hero once borrowed from someone he knew:

It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.





For some reason that reminds me of some saying that goes something like this:

Watch your thoughts,
for they become actions.
Watch your actions,
for they become habits.
Watch your habits.
for they become your character.
Last edited by Shikiller on December 8th, 2008, 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shikiller
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 288
Joined: April 13th, 2007, 1:58 pm
Location: Argentina

Unread postby Raitei » December 8th, 2008, 1:50 am

Shikiller wrote:as evidenced by his lack of understanding when shirou said he would cut his arm off and kill him. he's like... a kid

He gets confused with the arm thing because he didn't know about command seals, as he uses a book, not because he didn't know about the world of magi, HF clearly tells that he knew.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby Shikiller » December 8th, 2008, 1:55 am

That's what Shirou's thinks, his flashback of HF tells you otherwise, and he precisely gets confused when Shirou mentions that he will cut his arm to stop his contract with Rider.
Shikiller
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 288
Joined: April 13th, 2007, 1:58 pm
Location: Argentina

Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 8th, 2008, 2:47 am

I UNDERSTAND NOW!

Raitei is Nega-Gar for Shinji :P
User avatar
matthewfarenheit
Addict
 
Posts: 111
Joined: July 31st, 2008, 12:08 am

Unread postby Raitei » December 8th, 2008, 2:54 am

matthewfarenheit wrote:I UNDERSTAND NOW!

Raitei is Nega-Gar for Shinji :P
nope. I'm just sympathetic with the hate-sandbag. :)

edit : oh, and shinji got 1 plus mark despite the minus 10 mark I gave him, since I... have a soft spot for narcisisstic guys. (gil, atobe, or whoever else, you name it)
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence
User avatar
Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread postby Ciel » December 8th, 2008, 3:25 am

Raitei wrote:
Hehehehe ,awesome troll.
7/10
didn't you realize you just posted one yourself?

he didn't post in this thread at all prior to his short post you quoted, much less trolled anyone. you don't seem to understand what a troll is if you thought that was a troll post.

spam, sure. flamebait, not really. troll, no way.
User avatar
Ciel
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 454
Joined: March 11th, 2004, 6:44 am

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 6:56 pm

anywho...

Shinji has the completely correct mindset for a Magus. He is unrelenting towards others, willing to continue his studies, and will use any means necessary to win against another mage

He also does a really really good job of hiding it... (although he doesn't really have much to make him noticed...)

He could create magic circuits similar to Shiro, but he would probably need a better instructor to learn how to do so. A person like Tohsaka or Shiro could teach him how to accurately do it... Although i recommend shinji learn from tohsaka before he learns from shiro.. Shiro would explain things like

"Ok, shinji. When you feel the searing rod go into your back, i want to you practice reinforcement for a few hours, and then after that remove the circuit. Dont worry dude, you just have to do it every single night during training, and you most likely will only improve like 0.01% per year, but keep up with it man! Oh and i should let you know, every night you try this, your body quite literally can be destroyed from the inside out... But hey, being a magus isnt all fun and games right!? :) "

Shinji is a decent master for the war... if he is with the correct servant. Shinji can cooperate well with servants who want the fastest and most sure fire way of obtaining the grail

anyways to wrap this up... Its obvious Shinji is a freaking despised character, I myself hate his guts... but the fact is, you cant look at him from a biased viewpoint about emotions. Shinji CAN be hated, but that doesn't mean he is less threatening than any other character in F/SN
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby abscess » December 9th, 2008, 7:41 pm

Rikh wrote:Shinji is a decent master for the war

No, he isn't a decent master. He has the perfect mindset of willing to do anything to win, but he fails in the end because he is uncapable of doing it right.
Remember that he is willing to torture Shirou just to prove to him that he has bigger balls than him, and does it by ordering Rider to kick his ass. A decent master would have thought of (or at least tried to) a more efficient way of finishing things up. Beating the crap out of a defenseless master isn't efficient, killing him/her before he/she could use any chance of calling for his/her servant is.


Rikh wrote:He also does a really really good job of hiding it

Shinji: Hi Shirou. I suck at magic as much as you, wanna side with me and rape Tohsaka while we survive this war?
Shirou: No!
Later
Shinji: Hi Rin. I suck at magic but I am so (not) MANLEE. Wanna hook up with me, rape(?) Shirou and end this war?
Rin: OMGWTFBBQ STFU>FO NOOB!!!11eleven11!!!

He not only revealed himself as a master to Shirou, he also did it to Rin...

UBW - Rider vs Shirou scene
Shinji: O hi, I stand here smiling sumggily while Rider tries to kill a lonely master. Oh, by the way, I fail at helping her with getting rid of that master, who happens to be [i]alone
! :)
Shirou: OMG Was that sum Shinji?[/i]
He failed to hide himself from Shirou and didn't do anything to help his servant.


Rikh wrote:you cant look at him from a biased viewpoint about emotions.

Aside from me laughing at him, I think I mentioned some valid and unbiased examples.

Closing comment: Sorry, but I still think that you are giving him more credit than he deserves. Sure, if he was different and willing to learn from someone else other than books and act like he is an incredible magus (or a repository of magical knowledge), he would be able to do something useful. But as he is, he can't do anything but be the laughingstock of the series :?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
User avatar
abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread postby Rikh » December 9th, 2008, 8:08 pm

abscess wrote:
Rikh wrote:He also does a really really good job of hiding it

Shinji: Hi Shirou. I suck at magic as much as you, wanna side with me and rape Tohsaka while we survive this war?
Shirou: No!
Later
Shinji: Hi Rin. I suck at magic but I am so (not) MANLEE. Wanna hook up with me, rape(?) Shirou and end this war?
Rin: OMGWTFBBQ STFU>FO NOOB!!!11eleven11!!!

He not only revealed himself as a master to Shirou, he also did it to Rin...

UBW - Rider vs Shirou scene
Shinji: O hi, I stand here smiling sumggily while Rider tries to kill a lonely master. Oh, by the way, I fail at helping her with getting rid of that master, who happens to be [i]alone
! :)
Shirou: OMG Was that sum Shinji?[/i]
He failed to hide himself from Shirou and didn't do anything to help his servant.



Ok... I'll admit... you have me there
But i do have to say that the only people that know shinji is a master are people who he intended to inform, nobody else knows...
Which is a good trait???
Actually only half of the serious people would even believe it even if he performed a spell in front of them... its just that unexpected...
User avatar
Rikh
DESU DESU!
 
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread postby abscess » December 9th, 2008, 8:26 pm

Spoiler-taged just in case.
And because of that, he would have the upper hand in that situation, but he didn't make use of it. Also, a master would have tried to stay unknown as much as possible (Kotomine did a pretty good job there), not inviting people over his home in order to show which his servant is (never a good idea) and talk high and mighty about being a master. I don't quite remember if Shirou ever told Shinji that he was already cooperating with Tohsaka (I think he didn't), but Shinji should have thought that if Shirou, a person that considered him a friend, said no to him; a person that has already rejected him before (Rin) wouldn't have changed her mind... I'm not considering that he is a jack-ass that rapes women, just that he seems incapable of doing a job right in most cases, even when having an upper hand because he doesn't think things through, thus making him a lousy master. Even outside of being a master, I think it's mentioned that he isn't good at stringing bows, being someone from an archery club, the vice-captain at that, wouldn't that be somehwat of a required skill? For a vice-captain, he sure doesn't really pay much attention to the club, remember that he asks Shirou (someone who isn't part of the club) to clean the building (or string the bows, I can't remember) in his place so he could hang out with some girls....
So.... :/
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
User avatar
abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
 
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread postby Watashimo » December 9th, 2008, 8:48 pm

So far Rikh and Raitei keep stating the exact same reasons over and over for why Shinji isn't an epic fail and everyone destroys their arguments with logic. In all the Shinji-defending posts I've only noticed like one or two variations in your points or a different wording of existing points. Let me restate again why Shinji is normal. I've only posted it like 20 times and yet the defense team seems to always skip over my posts.

1.Hes only popular because hes (supposedly) good-looking.
2.He has 0 magic circuits and only has magic knowledge.
3.His ONLY fighting skill is Archery.
4.He never received formal magus training, as stated in HF.
5.He would never make fake circuits because NOBODY (except maybe Kiritsugu) teaches that because the risk far outweighs the gain (the circuits are only TEMPORARY after all, even if Shinji made one, he would have ONE magic circuit for a short period of time) - Not to mention Shirou and Rin would NEVER teach him.
6.He is far too arrogant to effectively use pathetic methods like hostages.
7.He is far too cowardly to effectively fight at all.
8.Shinji is Shinji is Shinji is Shinji. His bad up-bringing does not justify his actions
"Hah, I see, I see! Yeah, thats so much more important than who my master is! You're right, kid!" - Lancer
"Therefore, give me tea." - Okazaki Tomoya.
User avatar
Watashimo
Crack Desu!
 
Posts: 339
Joined: September 13th, 2008, 2:06 am
Location: Clock Tower

PreviousNext

Return to Fate/stay night Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

cron