How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

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Rikh
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How Shinji is better than everybody thinks...

Unread post by Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 6:09 am

Come on... Shinji is very capable as a person. Although his personality sucks completely, he still has more strengths than an average high school student

Shinji had to bear intense magus training (although he was not really a success...)

He became CO-captain of the archery club through skill
He was equally as strong and fit as shiro (just too scared usually use his strength well in fights)
i believe he had his arm cut off in a route, and STILL managed to run away
he SURVIVED the heart of the holy grail
He knows how to win by playing all necessary cards, such as hostages or deals
very popular within school
Knows plenty more basics in magic history/skills/etc than shiro

Honestly if you switched out his personality to be more resistant, Shinji could very well be one of the harder masters to beat
Saying stuff like "Lol shinji's so pathetic he would die to a baby" is stupid, as shinji has every ability to easily beat any highschooler or adult in combat
It's just he lacks the ability to keep cool against higher level magus's

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 6:16 am

^what he said.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

Watashimo
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 6:19 am

I don't think they put him through any intense magic training because they KNEW he had 0 magic circuits, therefore the training would be a waste. He merely has the knowledge.
When did it say he was as fit as Shirou? Shirou trains every day to become a hero of justice, I doubt Shinji has that kind of motivation.
I don't remember his arm being cut off, but thats just me, its possible.
His flesh was deformed into a giant ball of meat, I think even Shirou would have made a better Holy Grail than him. The Holy Grail wasn't trying to destroy him, it was using him, so its nothing to say he survived it.
He knows how to play necessary cards like hostages and deals because hes a coward and can't win through conventional means - even if its possible he won't take the risk, he takes the easy way out.
Hes popular with the girls, thats it, because hes confident and has good looks.
Has knowledge of magic, thats all. He has 0 circuits and therefore needs another supply of magic power to cast (such as the book).

True, if you switched out his personality he might be better, but not by much. His magic power is weak and therefore his Servant is lacking and he can't cast decent spells. He would still be the weakest master. Shirou at least has a badass servant and a HAXXOR ability.
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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 7th, 2008, 6:22 am

everyone says that shinji would die to a baby becos he is the character everyone loves to hate. as such, everyone does exactly what this character begs others to do: make fun out of him. as a result, exaggerations and probably false statements are thrown simply in the interest of fun. c'mon, tell me you did not find any of the things said about shinji amusing? most of them are really quite funny.
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » December 7th, 2008, 6:32 am

Yeah Shinji is better then everyone else since he now has a second thread about him now. *chuckles*

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Unread post by Watashimo » December 7th, 2008, 6:33 am

Also, I don't think anyone actually said "Shinji would lose to a baby." Most of the comments were on how Anti-GAR he was, not how weak he was. Shinji would lose to anyone with any combat training, fair and simple. Whether its high-school martial arts or what. The only thing hes good at is archery and probably school work. So far, I've yet to see him display any other skills. His magic does not count because that was all through the book, take that away and hes like a normal person with extra knowledge. I'll give up if you can specifically show me where it said Shinji had ANY sort of combat skill aside from archery.
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Unread post by supremehyren » December 7th, 2008, 6:43 am

What few people realize is....


... babies in the Nasuverse are actually incredibly powerful.

Think about it. The weaker a protagonist, the more ridiculous the person he defeats. It happened in Tsukihime(Shiki killed Roa), it happened in Fate(Shirou beat Gilgamesh), etc, etc...

In other words, if someone like Shirou could beat someone like Gil by chance(who is, say, a bazillion times stronger than him), then how could a baby have trouble with Shinji?

Probably, the baby would somehow match Neco-Arc, thanks to some plot device.
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abscess
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Unread post by abscess » December 7th, 2008, 7:08 am

Wow! Another thread about this guy??
Watashimo wrote:Also, I don't think anyone actually said "Shinji would lose to a baby." Most of the comments were on how Anti-GAR he was, not how weak he was. Shinji would lose to anyone with any combat training, fair and simple. Whether its high-school martial arts or what. The only thing hes good at is archery and probably school work. So far, I've yet to see him display any other skills. His magic does not count because that was all through the book, take that away and hes like a normal person with extra knowledge. I'll give up if you can specifically show me where it said Shinji had ANY sort of combat skill aside from archery.
Very much agreed. If we count out the Grail War, he is only a common person. As a common person he is just a simple guy. It is true that he has knowledge of who knows how many things in magic, but he isn't capable of using any of whatever it is he learned if he doesn't have any external help, so all of his knowledge is completely useless. I don't say that he could lose to a baby, but to anyone who has basic knowledge of how to fight (protect your head from heavy blows, step back, attack if you can, counter-attack, etc, etc.) he will most likely be the one to lose. Outside of archery, we are never told that he ever did any training in martial arts, so we can assume he didn't.
Kid-Wolf wrote:Yeah Shinji is better then everyone else since he now has a second thread about him now. *chuckles*
I'm inclining to say that that's his real power, to make people disagree in his level of crappinness and making them argue in the process :lol:
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by xthr » December 7th, 2008, 7:20 am

Ahh, but you see, Shinji has already won. With all these threads and discussions about him, he is already more "popular" (or perhaps infamous) than MANY TM characters.

...
...
...Isn't it sad sacchin? if this continues, more people might vote for Shinji on a popularity poll as a joke than you just because more people know about shinji

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Unread post by Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 7:56 am

abscess wrote: Outside of archery, we are never told that he ever did any training in martial arts, so we can assume he didn't.
Its stated by Tohsaka that mages are given combat training in modern times. She learned extensive martial arts during her practice of becoming a mage. As the Matou houshold is a very successful (until recent) mage family, it should be assumed he still went through many of the same process's of Tohsaka.

Shinji has extensive knowledge of magic, and although he does not have a magic circuit in him, he probably could do well with the Artificial circuits similar to what shiro has been using. Even with the book, he still needs to use a magic circuit to create the spell as needed. He could have been using a faux one.

On any one on one fight with an average person, i also would assume Shinji would win, as his family status and mage training would grant him the chances to win.

He is similar to shiro in physical form, as he constantly practices every day for his club. Shiro every morning does a few situps/pushups/etc... which is similar to his common drill for archery.

So far, stating shat Shinji only uses hostages because he is a coward? Shinji is similar to Kiritsugu (in SOME ways). He KNOWS he cant get into a battle he cannot win, unlike shiro in 60 bad endings... He will take every advantage possible, which makes him more of a magus than Tohsaka or Shiro in that sort

Anyways, Shinji, despite being despicable, has a lot of traits that can make him a decent threat

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Unread post by abscess » December 7th, 2008, 8:26 am

I disagree. Sakura was the one chosen as the succesor of the Matou, since she is the only one in the family capable of using magic (not counting Zouken). Training Shinji physically or magically would have been an utter waste of time. He is seen as a burden instead of a useful asset, he didn't know Sakura was the one chosen to be the succesor, so I assume he didn't undergo the proper training a modern magus normally does. Even if he did, he would still be of average level as a normal person. Any other person that would excercise his/her body can still beat him. Now, if we talk about a person that practices martial arts or some combat training and does it daily, he would get beaten to a pulp.

About fake circuits, I don't know if he did it or not or even if he could but, wouldn't it be needed some sort of magical backup in order to make a fake magic circuit? Like using prana or something in some way, I mean (I don't know that's why I'm asking). So, in this matter I can't really say anything.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 8:41 am

abscess wrote:I disagree. Sakura was the one chosen as the succesor of the Matou, since she is the only one in the family capable of using magic (not counting Zouken). Training Shinji physically or magically would have been an utter waste of time. He is seen as a burden instead of a useful asset, he didn't know Sakura was the one chosen to be the succesor, so I assume he didn't undergo the proper training a modern magus normally does. Even if he did, he would still be of average level as a normal person. Any other person that would excercise his/her body can still beat him. Now, if we talk about a person that practices martial arts or some combat training and does it daily, he would get beaten to a pulp.

About fake circuits, I don't know if he did it or not or even if he could but, wouldn't it be needed some sort of magical backup in order to make a fake magic circuit? Like using prana or something in some way, I mean (I don't know that's why I'm asking). So, in this matter I can't really say anything.
Shinji was raised at a successor of the matou family, its stated in all the routes

Its just that the ended up having to use sakura in the end because shinji failed

Also he did go through standard training, although he just was not gifted a magic circuit at birth

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Unread post by Vhailor » December 7th, 2008, 12:18 pm

I agree with Rikh. I mean, Shinji is acting more like a master than Shiro or Tohsaka and because of that, he is more dangerous. This is a war, after all, and he is not in a strong position. If he wasn't so impulsive... But he is broken so too bad.
In fact, i thought it is quit a shame he doesn't have any magic circuit because he would be an interesting caracter. But when he learn the truth, he broke and began to lose confidence and that leads to the end we know : complex, resentment, ect ect.

I think Shinji could be a charismatic character but he is a failure. The other way to look at him is Perseus, who is describe like a Shinji who succeed. I won t talk about it because i don t read F/HA but he seems to be quit awesome (He faces the Gorgon alone :o)

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Unread post by Inverted » December 7th, 2008, 12:36 pm

Rikh wrote: Shinji is similar to Kiritsugu (in SOME ways)
*Puts a bullet through Rikh's brain*

However on your points I agree except the Matou successor one. He did receive some training as a Magus successor would receive but the core training was given to Sakura .

On another note post-UBW Shinji might actually have some magic circuits as the closed magic circuits ,traces of which were acquired through family blood were forced to reopen due to the tremendous power of the Grail.

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Unread post by matthewfarenheit » December 7th, 2008, 1:47 pm

Rikh wrote:Shinji was raised at a successor of the matou family, its stated in all the routes

Its just that the ended up having to use sakura in the end because shinji failed

Also he did go through standard training, although he just was not gifted a magic circuit at birth
Nah, you're making too many assumptions.
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Also, I dunno about Shinji's archery skills. The only one to talk about them is Shinji himself, and we know he's quick to brag about nothing. As far as I know he was made subcaptain because of his recruiting skills (being popular with the girls) and not his archery skills, or at least that was not the main reason.

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Unread post by Altima of the Gates » December 7th, 2008, 3:22 pm

matthewfarenheit is totally right here.
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So to that, I'd say he was pretty much a pathetic person all around.

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Unread post by inferno_flamex » December 7th, 2008, 3:44 pm

Would it be suffice to say that...

*summarised post*

I know that shinji is a human being (at least in an anime)...
But I REFUSE to awknoledge him as one?
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Unread post by Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 3:56 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote:
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"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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Unread post by Inverted » December 7th, 2008, 6:48 pm

But what he did was horrendous. There are no excuses for his course of action.

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Unread post by Altima of the Gates » December 7th, 2008, 6:50 pm

Raitei wrote:
Altima of the Gates wrote:
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