Fate/Stay Night Review

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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 3rd, 2008, 3:35 pm

Comparing a 15 year old character to one just recently made...can't take much seriousness there.

Why did Shirou abandon his dream? YOU DID NOT READ HF, ok, I mean, I think it's stupid he did, but they explained it clearly. Love is BLIND.

Archer DID want to still kill Shirou, I.E "Now is not the time for personal grudges" despite hating Shirou, he knew he had to focus on the bigger picture(This was done in Fate also)

Illya was also jsut a daughter who never had a father and she was lonely, she was being forced to do it and didn't really care for it, but just a chance to meet the son of her "Semi-father"


All in all, what most people are saying about your review is: It feels shallow. It feels like you wrote it, just because you could, and weren't inspired to. It lacks emotion, it's not something that gets a reader to keep reading. Some reviews of things are like that, or they're like yours, where the reader wants to stop a few sentences in because you have no imagination.
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Unread postby Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 3:42 pm

It is always important to discuss the bad in a review but with maybe 2 lines exception you went on and on about how it didnt feel like a true war. It sounds to me that you would prefer it if all the characters we're stripped of their emotions, had no backstory, and do nothing but murder till they get the Holy Grail. Personally i would hate such an outcome. Shirou killing rin in my oppinion would completely kill my image of him. Take into fact that the majority of these servants aren't normal people but divine heroes. They gave up their own self desires long ago so why would they have any now.

The characters in fate are not Blood thirsty killers. Each has his own ideals, likes/dislikes, and personality. To tear away their personality for the sake of a "more believeable war" is something i hope would never be done
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 3rd, 2008, 3:43 pm

We should change the topic's title to "review the review the reviewer has made":P

Anyways, if I were to review Fate for the general public, my result would also be around the 5-6 stars mark, as most people wouldn't actually sit for the whole novel to unfold. If I were to review it for the niche of VN readers, I'll grade it higher, but I'd probably have to sit for many other novels in order to grade it before I consider my own opinion of any value. But this guy just grades it low for all the wrong reasons, going as far as calling deep characters "apathetic, cold, and ultimately robotic, unsympathetic, and unimportant", and the execution "lacking of any emotional climaxes but at the end of each route". Did you even play the game?

This is the opinion of someone that started his review full of bias and preconceptions, spiced with some fanboyism for Tsukihime, and should be regarded as such. Maybe you should get off the frame and realize that Tsukihime's execution isn't the ultimate one, neither that a different approach towards the characters is automatically wrong. Until that, feel free to try to shove up our asses how you review is right and we are the ones with preconceptions. You have better chances of succeeding in actually making a good review, so maybe you'd want to spend your time making it for a change...
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Unread postby rubberchicken » December 3rd, 2008, 4:01 pm

This topic made me lol, and not in a good way.
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Unread postby wyldfire » December 3rd, 2008, 4:10 pm

@the genius who wrote the review :

dude, i kinda feel like whatever u've written in that review should've been posted in the "what u didn't like abt FSN" thread...we already had a discussion like that...a review is something u write with an unbiased mind to guide or advise prospective buyers, not something u pour ur personal feelings in...

and to ur comment : yeah, i'd very much like to write a review on FSN...but everybody already knows how great it is...so, i won't bother...(j/k) :lol:
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Unread postby Miraploy » December 3rd, 2008, 4:44 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Comparing a 15 year old character to one just recently made...can't take much seriousness there.

? The age of the character in question has nothing to do with it. All I'm saying is, while Kotomine is an interesting character, he's psycho in stock ways.
Mkilbride wrote:Why did Shirou abandon his dream? YOU DID NOT READ HF.

Hi, the question was rhetorical and I strongly disagree with that statement.

I mean, I think it's stupid he did

That was all I was getting at.

Archer DID want to still kill Shirou, I.E "Now is not the time for personal grudges" despite hating Shirou, he knew he had to focus on the bigger picture(This was done in Fate also)

Absolutely, but that decision contradicted the one made in UBW. Perhaps for good reason, but is still a contradiction.

Illya was also just a daughter who never had a father and she was lonely, she was being forced to do it and didn't really care for it, but just a chance to meet the son of her "Semi-father"

Absolutely.

Mkilbride wrote:All in all, what most people are saying about your review is: It feels shallow. It feels like you wrote it, just because you could, and weren't inspired to. It lacks emotion, it's not something that gets a reader to keep reading. Some reviews of things are like that, or they're like yours, where the reader wants to stop a few sentences in because you have no imagination.
Hi, I don't understand this position at all. If you read my responses I can't help but think that they are quite thorough.

matthewfarenheit wrote:This is the opinion of someone that started his review full of bias and preconceptions
Hi matthewfarenheit, if you think my review was biased or uses misconceptions please please point them out. I wrote this review in a way that I thought was objective, though obviously backed by my own experience..... So you could be right, but I'm not seeing it.

Also regarding what you said about
But this guy just grades it low for all the wrong reasons, going as far as calling deep characters "apathetic, cold, and ultimately robotic, unsympathetic, and unimportant", and the execution "lacking of any emotional climaxes but at the end of each route". Did you even play the game?


I did play the game and I made some pretty extensive arguments backing up my statement on the previous page as well as in the review itself. Please re-read them if you have any questions.

wyldfire wrote:dude, i kinda feel like whatever u've written in that review should've been posted in the "what u didn't like abt FSN" thread...we already had a discussion like that...a review is something u write with an unbiased mind to guide or advise prospective buyers, not something u pour ur personal feelings in...
You know, I thought I was balanced and objective. Every time I criticized something I also threw in something positive. I fell short of calling the game good, but I said that it was engaging, shows a lot of potential, had good action, well crafted relationships, and lots of other things that I enjoyed about the game. It seems like you just want superlatives...
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Unread postby Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 5:20 pm

Miraploy wrote:You know, I thought I was balanced and objective. Every time I criticized something I also threw in something positive. I fell short of calling the game good, but I said that it was engaging, shows a lot of potential, had good action, well crafted relationships, and lots of other things that I enjoyed about the game. It seems like you just want superlatives...


The reason everyone is disagreeing on your review is because the exact things that everyone else love about the game are the very same things that you are saying are bad in the games. I'd rather not write a review of a review but their are several parts of the story that seem to be overlooking and calling bad just because it wasn't completely how you expected. When a Visual Novel that is generally considered one of the best made to recieve 42 out of 100(mediocre). You'd be crazy not to expect people to largely disagree with you
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 3rd, 2008, 5:52 pm

It's like if someone gave Half-Life or Half-Life 2, a 3/10 or something, there would be riots.

It's also kind of like, when I talked to my friends about Final Fantasy and I say I liked 8 more than 7, and that 7 was over-rated, and FFX was a pretty damn good game, they all flip out on me.

Not to mention, the concept of Fate / Stay Night is more than 15 years old...Kotomine, at the time, would NOT have been a "Stock" Villain.


Although, I love Fate Stay Night, I wil lsay something about the last comment. Just because a game is universally praised, doesn't make it true(Look at the Halo series...for a console shooter...it's good, but as an overall shooter...it's pretty mediocre)
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Unread postby Benawi » December 3rd, 2008, 6:17 pm

Mkilbride wrote:Although, I love Fate Stay Night, I wil lsay something about the last comment. Just because a game is universally praised, doesn't make it true(Look at the Halo series...for a console shooter...it's good, but as an overall shooter...it's pretty mediocre)


I never technically said that its true since everyone has their own oppinion. I simply said that if a game is praised as one of the best then it is sure to have a large fanbase. And because of that expect to see plenty of disagreements when writing such a review.

Halo is a good example. Personally i thought it was overhyped and when i played 2(never got to play the first 1 nor did i ever want to play 3) i thought its gameplay was average and that theirs much better out their and in all it wasnt that good(still beat it thou for its sucktastic ending). If i was to write a review and post it on a halo fansite i'd be beyond ignorant to not expect any or even just a few complaints about my review.

However their is a large gap in quality (in my mind atleast) between a pc and console shooter. Their isnt when it comes to visual novels. The reason some may consider Halo not so great is because PC has much more to offer. Its not like theirs any higher system that releases a better quality visual novel so although a good example for one of my points. Its irrelevant to compare the two games.
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Unread postby VoidAvesta » December 3rd, 2008, 7:37 pm

It's not so smart to post such a review on a forum where the members are die hard fans of FSN
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 3rd, 2008, 7:59 pm

O I see, he wrote the review. He should have said so. If this is the case, then I don't see why everyone should bother discuss it here at all. What you wrote is your genuine opinion, I doubt the opinion of anyone else can change it, unless they agree with you. In order to critique something as a group, every member should be detached from the written work in question. Since you are the author and you are criticizing what is essentially the foundation of this forum, this will simply turn out to be a flame-fest consisting of insults and retorts. Might as well drop it...
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Unread postby Miraploy » December 3rd, 2008, 8:12 pm

Hi Keeper of Gil's Vault, you would be right if it was a critique, and that has sort of been what I was forced to do when people attacked my positions. But really, this is a review, it states both the good and the bad, and clarifies for newbies what they are getting into when they visit typemoon.us, a fansite for Typemoon afterall.

But taking into account everything everyone has said, I did amend the review in places. I'm now more effusive about the achievement of UBW as well as gave more credit to the intricacies with which Nasu crafted his characters. I still don't think extremely highly of them, but everyone who has responded to my review was right that credit should've been given where credit was due.

I also bumped up the execution score to an 8. That is Very Good. I don't think anyone would say that it is any better than that, and the overall score went from 42 to 48, still a 5/10 though.

But I'll say something else. As a TM fan, I didn't write this review to force any opinions on people, and it was interesting and entertaining for me to have this discussion about the game. I think I made very good points in this thread overall, and I hope that people would respond to them and tell me if they agree or disagree. But you know it really takes a fan to put this much effort into analysis. Which is why I found all the accusations of bias/not reading, pretty strange.
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Unread postby Ailtin » December 3rd, 2008, 8:58 pm

Actually to this review:

Who care about a opinion of a fan or a website ??
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Unread postby Miraploy » December 3rd, 2008, 9:17 pm

Ailtin wrote:Actually to this review:

Who care about a opinion of a fan or a website ??


That's pretty rude dude.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » December 3rd, 2008, 9:18 pm

Miraploy wrote:? The age of the character in question has nothing to do with it. All I'm saying is, while Kotomine is an interesting character, he's psycho in stock ways.


Out of curiosity, how many other villains in anime are 'like this'? If it's 'stock ways', then there should be far more, yes?

I think one point someone was trying to make - this character of Kotomine was made long before Schniezel - it should, perhaps, be better said that Schniezel is like Kotomine, rather than the other way around. After all, adventure books take plenty of cues from the Iliad, but that doesn't mean the Iliad has been rendered unoriginal and lacking revolutionary motifs. Perhaps, back in the days of F/SN's birth (whether in Nasu's youth, or when it was actually produced in entirety), characters like Kotomine didn't abound.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 3rd, 2008, 9:55 pm

Exactly what I was saying. You have to put yourself in a "TIME FRAME" when you read or watch something. Such as, when watching a movie from the 60's or 70's, you have to THINK how it was back then, and it can be very enjoyable. The problem is to many people these days, look at old stuff, that people love and say "It's Generic", and well, maybe by the standards of today, it may be, but think way abck then, it was new, it was refreshing and how unique it was compared to other things at the time.

I found Kotomine to be one of my favorites, he has a view of the world not far from my own. I could really identify with him in the relationship department. I've had many relationships that "Feel" like love, but strangely I always feel like it's shallow, so when I was reading about Kotomine in Heavens Feel, I connected to him on a whole level.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 3rd, 2008, 10:15 pm

AND SO AS I PRAY... UNLIMITED QUOTE WORKS!!!

Miraploy wrote:
Atriel wrote:Regarding Shirou's allies. Yes, you see that's called being smart. You can't do it alone, get together with someone that can't either. Even if only for a while. And that's precisely what happened, the only exception being Ilya & Rin. And their reasons are pretty clear.


Everything you say is completely accurate, the ways that Shirou makes friends is well explained and makes great sense in the context of the story. However, all of that takes away from potential drama and epicness. Was nobody else hoping for a showdown where Shirou is forced to kill Rin?

About the Rin picture, wow you guys are nitpicky. I used that picture because I didn't want to use an actual spoiler picture. I considered Rin's past tragic enough being Sakura's sister and all. What does it matter anyway? The picture was an accurate enough representation of the general situation. And you seem to think that a tragic backstory is a bad thing. Why? I was saying it as a compliment. :?

Nobody states a tragic backstory is a bad thing, its just thats not used for rin once so ever. Her backstory was not tragic at all... The fact is she new sakura was in pain, but she could live her life like that. Look at her in fate and UBW, it doesnt affect her much at all... In fact, she did not even know about the things going on the matou household... Her backstory there is far away from dark

Archer is a person in the UBW route that has a tragic backstory. it is more like a tragic premonition of the future. Its annoying to a lot of people that you just chose rins picture as your personal example... Rins picture honestly was almost one of the only people that cannot be counted in that category
Miraploy wrote:
Indeed, it is a new direction. Very different from the first two. But contradictory? Why? It states the truth behind the Holy Grail War. It is a contradiction only to what it was originally thought that the Holy Grail War was. Nothing more.


It didn't fit in the review to specifically say this, but the contradiction is in the characters. Why did Shirou abandon his Superhero dream? Why does Archer not want to kill Shirou anymore?

Read HF again... obviously you skipped the entire plot

Shiro first of all abandoned his dream of becoming a hero for multiple reasons... Namely his 'ideal' is a false image created from the curse his father left him... It is heighted strongly in UBW why its so flawed, and why it wont lead to happiness....

Shiro Abandoned it, because he did not want to KILL sakura. This is because shiro had to choose between saving the person he is in love with, over choosing the fast and easy way of killing one person... He went through horrible trauma growing to the mental-steel point of accepting his sins against his ideal...
In fact, HF primarily focuses on his ideal JUDGING him, by KILLING HIM through Archers Arm... Shiro did not abandon his ideals easily... in fact, he will still protect others... its just that he decides his loved one is more important than others

Archer does not want to kill shiro in Fate and HF for multiple reasons as well.. Archer in fate saw that shiro was going down a wrong path, but was still moved by him. In the end, there was no way Archer could protect others by killing shiro, since he knew that Shiro needed to live to allow Rin and the others to live... If archer allowed Shiro to die during Fate, The whole city would have been destroyed by the tainted grail... He would rather save the lives of others over his personal pain...

ALSO during HF... Shiro openly abandoned his ideals... Archer DID NOT approve of this... but he knew that he no longer had to kill shiro... Shiro in HF was not the one that would ever choose to become a heroic spirt. He gave shiro his ARM so that he could use it to protect the ones he cared about at least.. Archers will to protect people lived on strongly in all the routes... Its just during UBW that archer was able to openly kill shiro without a risk.. Archer could kill Gilgamesh if he wanted to... he knows the king of carelessness's weaknesses... he had every ability to kill shiro then
Miraploy wrote:
Atriel wrote:So? You do remember who she is, and her reasons (in this case, lack of) to be in the war? The greedy ones are her ancestors, not her. She only did as she was told and actually ended up having a bond with Berserker.


That's absolutely right. But you're reinforcing my point that she wasn't greedy. I was trying to make a point on how unpassionate the contestants were and how easily they are sidetracked by things like friendship, and that's exactly the point you brought up.

Dude... Illya does not represent her familys goals... She is a sad child created to hold the grail... She honestly wanted to LIVE in the end... The reason why she lived with shiro is because she saw Salvation in the Adopted son from her FATHER
Illya was just a girl who wanted to protect somebody important to her... her families persuit of the grail means nothing to her, as she and her loved ones will die if its wrongly used
Miraploy wrote:
People from 1,000 years ago are not the same as the ones today.
Shirou wasn't exactly relaxing when fighting.
Neither was anyone that knew of their own weaknesses.


Like I said, there are some scenes that are really good. The Archer vs Shirou battle was one example. But there are many many other fights opponents face off as if they're dismissive of the engagement in general. For example Lancer, yes I know he had good reason, but his lack of enthusiasm waters down the emotional impact of the battle. Same cheese with the first battle between Rider and Saber, Saber and Assassin, Gilly vs anyone, Archer vs Caster. You're right that their attitudes make sense in the context of the story as it was presented, but it does not make for compelling drama nor does it make for characters we can easily identify with. Put another way, those fights lack the vicarious emotion we were expecting, and run opposite to my understanding of human nature.

Now about the sex, you know, I may simply have low standards on that. I didn't read those scenes carefully, but what I saw of the images on fast forward I found titillating enough. They might not be able to reach the standards that you set, but Saber/etc was certainly sexy enough for me.

What???
Excuse me... but lets break down some specific characters

Lancers constant act of dis-enthusiasm was due to the fact that he was BINDED by a COMMAND SPELL from kotomine... Lancer only truly had chances to fight with his full self against Archer, True Assassin, and when he killed kotomine...
A large amount of the fight scenes were amazing... Each one had a unique depth and world to... Some of the fights in the beginning of HF might be dull due to the fact that they already fought them enough in Fate and UBW to know their weaknesses and such... Repeating fights would just repeat redundant information

Excuse me, you skimmed through the ero scenes? Im sorry, what? you honestly only looked at the CG's... which is around 20% of what makes a visual novel good... if you ACTUALLY read those ero scenes... you would see the horrendous meat referencing dialogue that made a large amount of fans dismiss incredibly
Miraploy wrote:
wyldfire wrote:dude, i can't simply believe it...abt illya and everything else has been said by others...but kotomine!!!u compare him to schneizel!!!i can't even find a word...in HF kotomine was greatly explained...that how his logic is completely opposite of normal humans...how he tries to find his purpose of existance and i shouldn't even have to say all this to someone who has read HF...i'd admit kotomine isn't explained until HF...but if u read HF and u still found no excellence in kototmine then i gotta say that u didn't understand anything at all ( and excuse me for personal attacks )...

It is indeed HF Kotomine that has the most similarities to Schneizel, while in Fate and UBW he has more of typical villain vibes, in HF he has the same sort of disgusting apathy to everything, or as you put it, logic completely opposite of normal humans, just like Schneizel.


Um... why are you comparing Kotomine to Schneizel... Honestly at least compare him to someone that is SIMILAR to him... Kotomine has incredible depth to his character, and is the polar opposite of shiro. Schneizel sadly wanted different goals from kotomine... Schneizel wanted to create a newer world... Kotomine doesn't care about basic stuff like that

Kotomine is a person who ALWAYS uses maximum effort to do things. He is completely empty inside without any form of joy, other than watching people suffer... Schneizel suffers from twisted logic... but Kotomine... he suffers completely from a twisted mind. He will always live the same normal way as he does now, and will not change that. HE HELPS THE PROTAGONIST SHIRO SEVERAL TIMES IN THE STORY... simply because he DOES NOT CARE WHAT HAPPENS... ALL HE WANTS IS TO SEE PEOPLE IN DESPAIR

Miraploy wrote:
FSN is NOT TH...if u want a story like TH then why don't u go read it again...FSN has its own charms...every single little detail was explained and there was more than excellent character development...contrary to u, i WILL say FSN has a superb storyline and the plot was even more gracefully executed...


Hi, if you don't like my review I encourage you to write your own. Your review will take precedence if more people recommend yours.


Obviously people do not like your review its completely biased... You are incredibly flawed into thinking out of the benefit of the doubt... The thing is, you do not think you are biased when you obviously are... Rejecting reality and keeping your own opinions without the reflections of others is a sign of immaturity and arrogance... This is what your review lacks... A review is for the world to read and understand... it is not a personal reflection of the things you thought were good are bad, its a reflection one what OTHERS THINK ARE GOOD OR BAD



Fewf... my Unlimited Quote Works Reality Marble has run out of prana with this post...
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Unread postby matthewfarenheit » December 3rd, 2008, 11:12 pm

Rikh wrote:Fewf... my Unlimited Quote Works Reality Marble has run out of prana with this post...

Worst pretext to get laid EVER :P
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Unread postby Rikh » December 3rd, 2008, 11:38 pm

matthewfarenheit wrote:
Rikh wrote:Fewf... my Unlimited Quote Works Reality Marble has run out of prana with this post...

Worst pretext to get laid EVER :P

ROFL
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Unread postby wyldfire » December 4th, 2008, 3:40 am

@rikh :

finally someone understands why it's so OUTRAGEOUS to compare kotomine with scneizel...it's a complete BLASPHEMY!!!

dude,if u were a gal, i'd kiss u!!! :lol:
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