About the Hero system...(Hmm..)

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About the Hero system...(Hmm..)

Unread postby Mkilbride » December 1st, 2008, 10:40 pm

Hero's can be summoned from any place and time. Heroic Spirit Emiya is an example. So, couldn't any of the Holy Grail Wars, by chance, have someone with like, a Laser or a Gun? I mean, you know, a Hero from the future. I just think it'd be funny.


Gilgamesh faces off against Random Hero from the future...

Gilgamesh is being all cocky, despite the fact he should pwn everyone, he'll always loose.

"Do you have enough shields, King of Hero's?"

*Mysterious future Hero uses his Noble Phantasm:Minigun Buffet*

BAM, dead Gilgamesh. I dunno, it's silly, but something I thought of, kind of be funny to see a Heroic spirit with a gun.
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Unread postby AlinSabel » December 1st, 2008, 10:48 pm

TYPE MOON Wiki wrote:It is almost impossible for someone of the present era to become a Heroic Spirit, for the great events of the past became everyday occurrences. In an age when the destruction of the planet is prevented all the time by preserving the Amazon forest from being plundered by companies, saving the world is no big deal. Another issue is that, because modern armaments give power to anyone use them, it is hard for a hero who uses today?s firing weapons to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ?an expert that everybody can become through training?, not as a ?one-of-a-kind existence?. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit is the gun itself under the terms of ?the most excellent weapon of its time?.
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Unread postby abscess » December 1st, 2008, 11:19 pm

AlinSabel wrote:
TYPE MOON Wiki wrote:It is almost impossible for someone of the present era to become a Heroic Spirit, for the great events of the past became everyday occurrences. In an age when the destruction of the planet is prevented all the time by preserving the Amazon forest from being plundered by companies, saving the world is no big deal. Another issue is that, because modern armaments give power to anyone use them, it is hard for a hero who uses today?s firing weapons to be recognized as a unique being. Even the most outstanding modern gunslinger will be seen by the world as ?an expert that everybody can become through training?, not as a ?one-of-a-kind existence?. If the conditions for the creation of a hero are met for a user of modern armaments, what will ascend to the rank of Heroic Spirit is the gun itself under the terms of ?the most excellent weapon of its time?.

That still makes me have many questions.... Let's suppose that this uber-bomb is able to blow up a whole continent and makes it up as a Heroic Spirit, now you summon this uber-bomb..... how the hell is a bomb supposed to fight against, say, Lancer or anybody else who is actually capable of fighting and not just blowing up?! That really makes no sense! The same is applaiable to the theoretical super-laser gun from the future, why the hell do you have the command spells for? "I forbid you to shoot me!!".... Giving orders to a gun is kinda pointless, isn't it?

Also, it does state that, even though it is incredibly hard for a modern human being to be considered a hero by Alaya's or Akasha's (or was it Gaia's? I no longer know...) standard, it's not impossible. Now, I'll put an example:
Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Yeah, he may not be well liked by some people, but he is considered a hero in Cuba and Argentina and almost in all latinamerica. Not only there, he is a recognized icon in the whole world even if his stories aren't entirely known. I've yet to find anyone who is completely obvlivious of who he was. Just to say that some people actually pray to him as if he was a saint (even though he was an atheist, go figure...!). I mean, the dude is a well renowned hero and the title applies perfectly to him. Why wouldn't he be selectable as a summonable Heroic Spirit?

Now, let's suppose that he actually is a Heroic Spirit, in what Class would he fall? Archer? Sorry, but no, he didn't use a bow. Saber?... ah... don't think so. He probably used a battle knife, but that's not a sword and it's just a battle knife, not something with a proper name, like Gram or Excalibur or Caladbolg.... Rider? Dunno, maybe? didn't really ride anything but had
pegasus as her... son
or something, but not this guy... It couldn't be lancer, since he didn't use lances nor Caster because he didn't use any "magical" things. Assassin is completely out of the question because
he wasn't a Hassan
. Only Berserker is available but... that would really be his downfall, he would lose his medical skills, his strategic knowledge and forget all of how to handle a weapon, what does he have left? "ME PUNY HUMAN! HEAR ME ROAR!"... aaah.... no....

Perhaps the only reason why there can't really be "new" Heroic Spirits is because the class system isn't all that complete. Perhaps a Gunner class or something like that, but that would go against the thing that says that everyone can handle guns and the number of people with that class would greatly outnumber the other ones from other classes....

Anyway, even though what I said seems more or less like a rant, which in part is, these are some serious doubts I have. So, if anyone can give good answers, that person or persons will have my gratitude.... even though it doesn't really amount to much....
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby AddleBoy » December 2nd, 2008, 12:05 am

abscess wrote:Perhaps the only reason why there can't really be "new" Heroic Spirits is because the class system isn't all that complete. Perhaps a Gunner class or something like that, but that would go against the thing that says that everyone can handle guns and the number of people with that class would greatly outnumber the other ones from other classes...

A gunner class would just fall under the Archer class, wouldn't it? Taking the Heroic Spirits we know of, being part of the Archer class doesn't require the use of bow and arrow.
Gilgamesh, for example, was in the Archer class even though he never used a bow and arrow. I guess that the anyone in the Archer class just fights with projectiles as weapons.


@AlinSabel
I wonder what kind of gun would be so great that it outshines every single gun to ever come into existence? And, if you summon a weapon as a heroic spirit, would the weapon just be used by the master themself, or would it be given a certain persona? Running around and talking with a floating gun just seems kind of weird. :?
Then you realize... That there is no loli. And it's not the loli you're molesting, it's yourself.
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Unread postby abscess » December 2nd, 2008, 12:20 am

@Addleboy
Hmm... Yes, yes. You are right.
Gil was an Archer and he wasn't exactly an archer...
Hmm, perhaps, now thinking about it, the super-gun would be like an archer too? but the user of such a "heroic spirit" is still open for debate. The most rational answer I can think is the master being the user of such a gun. Stretching this a bit more, supposing that a Metal Gear-esque weapon is actually created and goes out to be a Heroic Spirit, since it fires a load of nukes, bullets and some beams too, perhaps it could be labeled as an Archer too But what about the uber-bomb? I really can't find any class for it.

Also, going back to the Hero Guevara example (lol it seems like some sort of a joke, talking about this guy taking part in FSN :lol:). Let's say he falls to the archer class, what would be his Noble Phantasm?
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 2nd, 2008, 1:08 am

Brandon from GunGrave

Vash the Stampede.

Vash, for instance, is recognized planet wide(I know we're straying waaay far away from the actual way it works, but JUST saying...)

He already has incredible speed, abilities, and powers as is. If he became a Heroic Spirit somehow, he'd be Archer, obviously, with his Magnum Revolver, and his NP would obviously be Angel Arm(At 13% Power, it can blow up a town, or even a hole into space and half-way into a small moon)

I mean, this makes me think about how some anime Heroic Spirits could be...alot of interesting results. Basically, becoming a HS boosts you beyond the levels it's impossible to obtain while you're alive. (usually)

Just imagine your favorite anime characters as a Heroic Spirit.

For some reason, I get this idea of Vash and Shirou being best buddies...dunno why.
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Unread postby rastilin » December 2nd, 2008, 4:36 am

Sorry, had an error in the db.
Last edited by rastilin on December 2nd, 2008, 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby rastilin » December 2nd, 2008, 4:37 am

Sorry, had an error in the db.
Last edited by rastilin on December 2nd, 2008, 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby rastilin » December 2nd, 2008, 4:38 am

A good example of a famous gun would be the Colt .45 revolver. There was a saying at the time "God made man, Colt made man equal".

Or someone like Vasily Zaitsev would make an impressive counter guardian. With 300 confirmed kills in one of the most brutal wars ever fought. That's still bellow Simo H?yh? who scored something like 700 kills by the end of his career in the infantry. I think Nasu would rather not deal with including modern legends, which is why he instituted that principle; but it really cuts these guys short.

What I really hate though is that all the heroes are fighters of some kind. You don't have anyone who was a great healer, statesman or scientist. People who genuinely helped the world without hurting others. I suppose such people wouldn't be any good in a war, but it really feels like the throne of Heroes is needlessly exclusive of people who really helped others.
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Unread postby gexer64 » December 2nd, 2008, 5:26 am

You guys are forgetting about something....


Or rather someone.....


Chuck Norris!
Image


On a serious note you already have proof with archer (although he's a cg)

Who's to say one day the world won't end and cycle back to a time of magic? It appears Archer was known throughout the land in his time. He was involved with a war and was publicly executed might I add. So who knows?
In a single answer lies a thousand questions.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » December 2nd, 2008, 11:43 am

abscess wrote:I've yet to find anyone who is completely obvlivious of who he was.


meet your first one...

but that's beside the point. It is true that people from the present and future can become heroic spirits, albeit really tough to do that, but the point is, it is nearly impossible to summon them as servants.
Rin only managed to summon Archer by chance because archer's heart is made from rin's jewel, and archer probably kept that jewel.

U see, u cannot summon a heroic spirit randomly; you must have some connection with it, like
shirou's avalon, ilya's rock sword etc
How do you summon a heroic spirit from the future if you do not know what he might have? So the question of summoning heroes from the future becomes rather irrelevant, as the probability of doing so is so small. Rin is the only exception in the entire holy grail war.
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Unread postby gexer64 » December 2nd, 2008, 2:45 pm

What about berserker from HF 4? He wasn't summoned with catalyst.
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Unread postby Shiirn » December 2nd, 2008, 5:00 pm

Similar personalities are chosen if an artifact is not used.


Case in point:
Sakura/Medusa
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Unread postby abscess » December 2nd, 2008, 5:44 pm

BlackTornado wrote:
abscess wrote:I've yet to find anyone who is completely obvlivious of who he was.


meet your first one...

Then you, my friend, really needs to read more :) Do you even watch TV? that guy is practically everwhere. Anyway, I won't follow that topic, it will stray further more from the original.

BlackTornado wrote:It is true that people from the present and future can become heroic spirits, albeit really tough to do that, but the point is, it is nearly impossible to summon them as servants.

Yeah, but what about heroes from contemporary history? Like Zaitzev (or however it's written), or Wong Fei Hung? It would be virtually much easier saying a character gets his/her hands in something they used (like Zaitzev's rifle or Hung's staff) than getting or Achilles' armor or whatever.

BlackTornado wrote:U see, u cannot summon a heroic spirit randomly; you must have some connection with it...

Shiirn wrote:Similar personalities are chosen if an artifact is not used.

QFT
Also, if that method is used, wouldn't it be much more likely to summon a hero from relatively modern times than those from times long gone?

P.S: I suggest OP puts a spoiler tag in the thread.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 2nd, 2008, 6:20 pm

You know, the heroes in Heaven's Feel are not summoned from history books, video games, or manga. They are summoned from the Throne of Heroes. Where does it state that Zaitzev, Wong Fei Hung, and Che had been elevated to the level of spirits and place into the Throne? The source of heroic spirits is the Throne of Heroes, which essentially means that the World decides who is a hero and who is not. Legend and deeds will definitely contribute, but it is the World that makes the call.

The magic of modern times is weaker, and modern weaponry is neither magical nor takes skills to master (according to Nasu). Therefore, it is hard to gain the appreciation of the World. The only means for powerful individuals to become hero spirits in modern times is to basically "sell your soul" to the world (e.g. Archer). Technically a counter guardian is still a heroic spirit. That is, a heroic spirit that is faceless, known by no one, and used as a tool of destruction.

So, if you summon someone from the future, they would very likely to have weaker status than Ancient heroes, and probably weaker skills as well. Since their titles are not "earned", but given.
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Unread postby abscess » December 2nd, 2008, 6:45 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
You know, the heroes in Heaven's Feel are not summoned from history books, video games, or manga. They are summoned from the Throne of Heroes. Where does it state that Zaitzev, Wong Fei Hung, and Che had been elevated to the level of spirits and place into the Throne? The source of heroic spirits is the Throne of Heroes, which essentially means that the World decides who is a hero and who is not. Legend and deeds will definitely contribute, but it is the World that makes the call.

The magic of modern times is weaker, and modern weaponry is neither magical nor takes skills to master (according to Nasu). Therefore, it is hard to gain the appreciation of the World. The only means for powerful individuals to become hero spirits in modern times is to basically "sell your soul" to the world (e.g. Archer). Technically a counter guardian is still a heroic spirit. That is, a heroic spirit that is faceless, known by no one, and used as a tool of destruction.

So, if you summon someone from the future, they would very likely to have weaker status than Ancient heroes, and probably weaker skills as well. Since their titles are not "earned", but given.

Yeah, but we were talking about what if. As far as we know there is no uber-bomb as a heroic spirit, is it? We are only entertaining the possibility that some modern heroes are actually elevated to the rank of heroic spirits. Also:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:... to become hero spirits in modern times is to basically "sell your soul" to the world (e.g. Archer).

Wasn't Archer a Counter Guardian called by Alaya and not the World/Gaia? As far as I understand, the CG the world has is Primate Murder, not sure if the True Ancestors count as such.
Perhaps Kansho can shed some light in the matter?

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:So, if you summon someone from the future, they would very likely to have weaker status than Ancient heroes, and probably weaker skills as well. Since their titles are not "earned", but given.
I think I read somewhere that the older the legend was, the stronger it becomes.... or something like that...... So, yeah.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby Catastrophe » December 2nd, 2008, 10:47 pm

off-topic: ^^^WTF?? The spoiler ate your sig !!! :shock: :shock:
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Unread postby abscess » December 2nd, 2008, 11:19 pm

Catastrophe wrote:off-topic: ^^^WTF?? The spoiler ate your sig !!! :shock: :shock:

HOLY SHIT THAT'S RIGHT!!
how did that happen??!
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » December 3rd, 2008, 12:34 am

lol... just lol
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 3rd, 2008, 2:06 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:... to become hero spirits in modern times is to basically "sell your soul" to the world (e.g. Archer).

Wasn't Archer a Counter Guardian called by Alaya and not the World/Gaia? As far as I understand, the CG the world has is Primate Murder, not sure if the True Ancestors count as such.
Perhaps Kansho can shed some light in the matter?


The pact is called "世界の契約", which translates to "Pact of/with the World". So there is no unambiguity.
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