About the Hero system...(Hmm..)

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Unread postby Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 8:05 am

Raitei wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:Has nothing to do with current topic.
oh? then why this:
...man, you're no fun, huh? We're all just here to have fun and you come in with your "Canon and non-canon" stuff. Why can't you just enjoy and imagine this stuff, but no, you're just reluctant to have an imagination.


I could just say the same to you, you know.

in the end, jedi servants/sith servants aren't really viable. why? sith will not want to be such a being like servants; they are too proud for that. jedi, on the other hand, are too "crappy" to be a servant, besides some are "too holy" to claim the grail. (either "crappy" or "too holy")


Sith dont have better treatment after death

Look at Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nad... Their spiritual bodies are constantly tormented by the dark side of the force. Freedon Nad was saved by the Exile during KOTOR (if your light side of course...), as his spirit was in great agony at that time

Second, Jedi are by far from Holy... They are more so neutral than do-gooders. They allow people to live and die, and only intervene when absolutely required. They are similar to counter guardians in a sad way

Sith would 'seek' the grail to gain power to advance in the dark side

=P
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Unread postby arokan » December 12th, 2008, 12:01 pm

Going slightly back in the topic:
What about Carlos Hathcock as a servant (archer of course).
"During the Vietnam War Hathcock was confirmed for killing 93 North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong personnel. His actual total is believed to be well over 400, with at least an additional 300 being unconfirmed"
"One of Hathcock's most famous accomplishments was shooting an enemy sniper through his scope, hitting him in the eye and killing him."
"In 1967 Hathcock set the record for the 20th century's longest combat kill with a Browning M2 .50 BMG machine gun mounting a telescopic sight. The distance was 2,286 meters or 1.42 miles"
-Sourced from wikipedia

I think that about qualifies him :)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 12th, 2008, 4:23 pm

Using modern weaponry = instant disqualification (because Nasu doesn't like gun-totting Heroic Spirits)
Also, let's assume he becomes a counter guardian after selling his soul to the World, his Noble Phantasm will be rank... E (with a couple more minuses?)?
Since a rifle is:
-man-made, not constructed by magical beings
-was not quenched by the blood of phantasmal creatures
-not made from dragon fangs or body parts of phantasmal creatures
-was not blessed by some sort of god
-he did not slay gods or phantasmal creatures with the said rifle
-there are many rifles that are almost identical to the one he used

Also... Since he is completely human and I don't believe he is particularly strong or fast, his status will be on par with Archer, if not lower. So, I don't expect him to get close and personal with the knight classes.
Should you summon him (let's say you are doing role play)... you essentially get an Archer that will be used as an Assassin, since your best bet is letting him snipe other masters before their servants destroy him. You know what, that is kind of sad, I would rather draft Assassin and let him Delusional Heartbeat the enemies and then hide really fast, at least the Assassin class tops all in the Presence Concealment department.
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 12th, 2008, 4:36 pm

Well , why must a servant use guns or bombs hen their NPs are far far far more superior then those anyway , but the master using those are fine since
Kiritsu also uses them too and successfully sniped a master
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 12th, 2008, 6:29 pm

You also have the Type-slaying Gun God.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 12th, 2008, 8:42 pm

Can only a human be a Servant? I mean, Arc apparently has enough renown to qualify as a Heroic Spirit, and is DEFINITELY more than strong enough...

And it seems only natural that she'd be eligible for Counter Guardian status...
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Unread postby Rikh » December 12th, 2008, 9:56 pm

nobaka wrote:Can only a human be a Servant? I mean, Arc apparently has enough renown to qualify as a Heroic Spirit, and is DEFINITELY more than strong enough...

And it seems only natural that she'd be eligible for Counter Guardian status...


its her choice to become a counter guardian if she wants
She already gets support from the world, so she wont have much of a stat buff...

She also cannot be a heroic spirit, as she is not a legend. Obtaining Counter Guardian status is the only thing she is capable of
(although she could become a heroic spirit if she slaughtered several cities and became negatively famous... but i think that would make her an Anti-Hero... so she might only be avenger class)
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 12th, 2008, 11:22 pm

Heroic spirits are spirits, Arc is already a spirit/faerie (extension of the World), there is no point in becoming a heroic spirit. Consider being elevated to Heroic Spirit as the World's reward for true heroes, so their souls do not get shredded and recycled. The kick is of course you have to obey the rule of the World and get confined. Why become restricted in the Throne when you can roam around freely like Arc? (self-imposed imprisonment doesn't count, as it was not the intent of the World to make a bloodsucker, or maybe it is, if you define "rule over humans" as "suck their blood") If you want to get really technical, True Ancestors are actually above Heroic Spirits in terms of the hierarchy of spirits/faeries. So Arc becoming heroic spirit is DOWNGRADING.

I bet if it is possible, the von Einzberns would have tried (summon dead True Ancestors that is). Those guys pretty much tried to summon everything.
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Unread postby xthr » December 12th, 2008, 11:37 pm

I'm fairly sure True Ancestors are counter guardians of the world already. Wasn't that the point of their creation?
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 12th, 2008, 11:46 pm

Part of the counter force, but since they serve Gaia instead of Alaya, they are not counter guardians. They kill humans to protect the planet, instead of kill humans to protect mankind.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 13th, 2008, 12:50 am

either way, arc has little reason to need to become a counter guardian, its pretty much useless
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Unread postby Raitei » December 13th, 2008, 4:47 am

Rikh wrote:either way, arc has little reason to need to become a counter guardian, its pretty much useless
not to mention "one servant cannot serve two masters" either... except she is a double agent? nah, discard that thought.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Showsni » December 14th, 2008, 5:59 am

How about Manfred von Richthofen (the Red Baron) as a Rider? Certainly world famous (probably as much or more than people like Chu Chulain and Medea in these modern times), and in a time when the life expectancy for a pilot was in hours rather than months it certainly took something special and of a heroic level to stand out.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 14th, 2008, 6:29 am

Rikh wrote:
nobaka wrote:Can only a human be a Servant? I mean, Arc apparently has enough renown to qualify as a Heroic Spirit, and is DEFINITELY more than strong enough...

And it seems only natural that she'd be eligible for Counter Guardian status...


its her choice to become a counter guardian if she wants
She already gets support from the world, so she wont have much of a stat buff...

She also cannot be a heroic spirit, as she is not a legend. Obtaining Counter Guardian status is the only thing she is capable of
(although she could become a heroic spirit if she slaughtered several cities and became negatively famous... but i think that would make her an Anti-Hero... so she might only be avenger class)


I dunno. She's already pretty fucking famous to anyone who knows anything about vampires (in the Nasuverse).
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 14th, 2008, 12:29 pm

and ain't Avenger for hackers? :D
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Raitei » December 14th, 2008, 1:52 pm

Xamdou wrote:and ain't Avenger for hackers? :D
iirc, avenger is a class specifically made for angra mainyu, and only for angra mainyu.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 14th, 2008, 1:56 pm

Raitei wrote:
Xamdou wrote:and ain't Avenger for hackers? :D
iirc, avenger is a class specifically made for angra mainyu, and only for angra mainyu.
ya i know that
"You sit proudly in this cave , like a Queen of Egypt.
In my service to you , I shall never know rest.
To prove my devotion , I have stolen this ostentatious offering.
But I'll show you things your dark blue eye haven't seen , smiles like a lake in the sun , blossoming like a lotus."
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Unread postby Shikiller » December 14th, 2008, 4:06 pm

Avenger is not a class just for Angra manyu, it's for pure Anti-heroes. Angra Manyu is the only known pure antiheroe.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 14th, 2008, 7:58 pm

Shikiller wrote:Avenger is not a class just for Angra manyu, it's for pure Anti-heroes. Angra Manyu is the only known pure antiheroe.

Be careful when making blanket statements. Anti-hero just means the individual benefited the humanity through what seem to be acts of evil. The Hassans, although what they had done were immoral and dishonourable (assassinate people), their acts benefited their people, so they are true anti-heroes. People define anti-heroes differently, but in Nasuverse, this is the definition. If you still have doubts, read Assassin's profile in the Status screen.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 15th, 2008, 1:25 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Shikiller wrote:Avenger is not a class just for Angra manyu, it's for pure Anti-heroes. Angra Manyu is the only known pure antiheroe.

Be careful when making blanket statements. Anti-hero just means the individual benefited the humanity through what seem to be acts of evil. The Hassans, although what they had done were immoral and dishonourable (assassinate people), their acts benefited their people, so they are true anti-heroes. People define anti-heroes differently, but in Nasuverse, this is the definition. If you still have doubts, read Assassin's profile in the Status screen.


depends on your viewpoint on the issue ;)
Gilgamesh is a great anti-hero if looked at in a way of cleansing the world. You can justify anti-heroes out of almost any spirit that did something bad in their life i guess
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