Most Powerful Servant [Spoilers]

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Who is the most powerful servant overall?

Poll ended at December 1st, 2008, 2:31 am

Saber
7
10%
Lancer
4
6%
Berserker
3
4%
Archer
21
29%
Caster
1
1%
Assassin (Sasaki)
1
1%
Rider
4
6%
Dark Saber
5
7%
Gilgamesh
25
35%
Hassan
1
1%
 
Total votes : 72

Unread postby Kikuchi » January 21st, 2009, 7:15 am

Inverted wrote:Yes yes it was .If you cared to notice it clearly.
Someone was referring to Kiritsugu being machine like. Then you said Archer didn't regret his path when he was alive. Unless you meant Archer too was machine like when he was alive, there is no relevance at all between those. Then again, the comparison was between Servant Archer and HF4 Kiritsugu (who blows up building, sniping people, etc, etc).

Its called caring not emoism.
He may be emoing when fighting Himself but for Illya it is care.
Call it whatever you want, but point is, his brain won't function maximally, overtaken by his emotion.

And what will happen? He would have killed Illya by the diameter of the BP .And his normal arrows don't work on Berserker as they are B.
Lure him into good distance, I mean far away enough from Ilya. Berserker is not dumb, you know. He will know that arrow (BP) will kill Ilya if he doesn't tank it. He would be forced to tank it then. :P

Anyway, I think this is enough. Don't want to see this thread padlocked, do we? :P
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Unread postby Inverted » January 21st, 2009, 7:33 am

Kikuchi wrote: Someone was referring to Kiritsugu being machine like. Then you said Archer didn't regret his path when he was alive. Unless you meant Archer too was machine like when he was alive, there is no relevance at all between those. Then again, the comparison was between Servant Archer and HF4 Kiritsugu (who blows up building, sniping people, etc, etc).

It is completely relevant considering Post-HF4 Kiritsugu .
Call it whatever you want, but point is, his brain won't function maximally, overtaken by his emotion.

His brain will function maximally alright but he will will chose options that have no chance of killing Illya. Which is good.

And what will happen? He would have killed Illya by the diameter of the BP .And his normal arrows don't work on Berserker as they are B.Lure him into good distance, I mean far away enough from Ilya. Berserker is not dumb, you know. He will know that arrow (BP) will kill Ilya if he doesn't tank it. He would be forced to tank it then. :P

This IS what he did in UBW graveyard scene when he could open up the distance.
Anyway, I think this is enough. Don't want to see this thread padlocked, do we? :P

Yes it is enough. :)
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Unread postby wyldfire » January 21st, 2009, 12:23 pm

aww, man! r we finished already...i wanted to go at it a bit more... :( :)
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Unread postby Rikh » January 24th, 2009, 12:48 am

indeed, were not off topic

honestly i say the most powerful servant is Archer

Archer, if he 'needs' to, will always find victory in a hopeless situation and follow through with it. Why you ask? Emiya Shiro does it every day during the war, and the rest of his life. Archer if put into a truly hopeless situation without salvation (or another to succeed his place), will imagine the thing required to win, and use it, even if he dies in the process.

The fact is, Archer is immortal unless he is not needed. Thats just how shiro's personality and stamina is, and it wont change ;)
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 24th, 2009, 6:08 pm

Berserker disagrees
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Unread postby Rikh » January 24th, 2009, 7:51 pm

Mazyrian wrote:Berserker disagrees

yar... but Archers younger self beat berserker during fate with the help of saber, and during HF with a arm grafted on to him

Also, archer took like 5-6 lives or so by himself, without killing Illya...
Berserker is good, the only problem is that he cant use a NP, and he is completely useless and will almost immediately disappear without a master (due to his high mana upkeep rate)
also in trap based situations, Archer would most likely have the upper hand
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Unread postby Xamdou » January 25th, 2009, 1:11 am

Rikh wrote:
Mazyrian wrote:Berserker disagrees

yar... but Archers younger self beat berserker during fate with the help of saber, and during HF with a arm grafted on to him

Also, archer took like 5-6 lives or so by himself, without killing Illya...
Berserker is good, the only problem is that he cant use a NP, and he is completely useless and will almost immediately disappear without a master (due to his high mana upkeep rate)
also in trap based situations, Archer would most likely have the upper hand
I think Berserker will also lose to normal Archer type servant too if they have enough mana/arrows to shower on him continuously , but once they got into Berserker's range , might be game over for them
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 25th, 2009, 3:10 am

Rikh wrote:
Mazyrian wrote:Berserker disagrees

yar... but Archers younger self beat berserker during fate with the help of saber, and during HF with a arm grafted on to him

Also, archer took like 5-6 lives or so by himself, without killing Illya...
Berserker is good, the only problem is that he cant use a NP, and he is completely useless and will almost immediately disappear without a master (due to his high mana upkeep rate)
also in trap based situations, Archer would most likely have the upper hand


Black berserker is weaker than normal berserker. Black berserker was blind, death, lacked sense of smell, and to top it off was distracted by Illya. He also had several lives taken away before the fight with shirou.

By the way even taking away 6 lives is an accomplishment of itself. True heroes such as lancer, who achieved that power with their own merits could not do as much.

For archer to win he would need 13 A ranked swords due to god hands ability to adapt (Archer's swords are not the original and therefore lack the "mystery" behind them needing to use different swords per life). By comparison, Gae Bolg is B+, Bellerophon is A, and excalibur is A++. To put that in perspective, how many swords do you think are at that level? Not that many.

It also take considerable prana to be able trace such swords. Supposing he uses broken phantasms he might be able to do more damage, but that would take time he does not have, along with a large amount of prana consumption. Broken phantasms use much more prana than just tracing and firing. Tracing is just taking a sword from UBW out. Broken Phantasms are created by taking the sword and pumping it with much more prana than it should. And considering the rank of the swords, that requires quite a bit.

Unlimited blade works could be used like in the anime. However gil, who had all original weapons not downgraded, took effort to bring down Berserker as shown by using Enkidu (I refuse to call it that corrupted Erukidu). Archer does not have the luxury of Enkidu.

Before anyone mentions sniping, consider this. Berserker was dead locked with saber getting his ass handed to him in the graveyard. As this was going on Archer sniped at berserker with an A ranked broken phantasm. Do you know what happened? Berserker blocked it, taking no damage in the process. Considering that, sniping does not have a high rate of success.

Overall I'd say that Archer has a very low chance of survival. Yes it is possible. But not likely.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 25th, 2009, 3:20 am

Xanathos wrote:Before anyone mentions sniping, consider this. Berserker was dead locked with saber getting his ass handed to him in the graveyard. As this was going on Archer sniped at berserker with an A ranked broken phantasm. Do you know what happened? Berserker blocked it, taking no damage in the process. Considering that, sniping does not have a high rate of success.

Overall I'd say that Archer has a very low chance of survival. Yes it is possible. But not likely.
You know, blocking isn't the same as tanking. Tanking is what Berserker did when Gilgamesh bombarded him. If somehow Archer can force him to take the full blow of a Broken Phantasm (by aiming at Ilya, for instance), he can repeat that process and get 12 kills easily.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 25th, 2009, 3:50 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Xanathos wrote:Before anyone mentions sniping, consider this. Berserker was dead locked with saber getting his ass handed to him in the graveyard. As this was going on Archer sniped at berserker with an A ranked broken phantasm. Do you know what happened? Berserker blocked it, taking no damage in the process. Considering that, sniping does not have a high rate of success.

Overall I'd say that Archer has a very low chance of survival. Yes it is possible. But not likely.
You know, blocking isn't the same as tanking. Tanking is what Berserker did when Gilgamesh bombarded him. If somehow Archer can force him to take the full blow of a Broken Phantasm (by aiming at Ilya, for instance), he can repeat that process and get 12 kills easily.


Archer would not do that though. He can't aim at Illya. Not only that, Gils rain against berserker was completely different. His weapons were a higher rank, and he was forced to use enkidu. Archer can't even do that though considering the rain might hit Illya.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 25th, 2009, 5:24 am

Xanathos wrote:Archer would not do that though. He can't aim at Illya. Not only that, Gils rain against berserker was completely different. His weapons were a higher rank, and he was forced to use enkidu. Archer can't even do that though considering the rain might hit Illya.
That's why his stubbornness / emoism will only get in the way. No matter how you look at it, Archer just can't create 100% chances of victory against stronger Servants. People here seem to overestimate his Eye of The Mind (True); that will not do. Greatly improves the chances of winning doesn't mean "turning the every possibility of winning into 100%". Maybe I'll put it into this : you can predict the path of a bullet, but you lack the ability to dodge it. Archer's abilities do have limits. There are some certain instances in where he would not be able to do anything AT ALL. E.g. Saber using Excalibur, Berserker, Lancer using Gae Bolg : Impaling Barbed Death, Assassin using Tsubame Gaeshi, etc, etc...

Also, Gil was forced to use Enkidu because he was momentarily distracted by Berserker's ability to close in the range between them, besides wanting to prove his superiority by showing them that Berserker can totally do NOTHING against him.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 25th, 2009, 5:31 am

Kikuchi wrote:Maybe I'll put it into this : you can predict the path of a bullet, but you lack the ability to dodge it.


You stole that from melty blood right? XD
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 25th, 2009, 5:54 am

Xanathos wrote:
Kikuchi wrote:Maybe I'll put it into this : you can predict the path of a bullet, but you lack the ability to dodge it.


You stole that from melty blood right? XD
Hmm? I thought that was a pretty generic statement. Nah, that was spur-on-the-moment analogy; didn't really remember if there was such statement in Melty Blood. Anyway, you get the idea. Archer isn't half haxx0r as you thought. Maybe if he teams up with stronger Servants, yes, he would prove an invaluable asset.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 25th, 2009, 6:22 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Xanathos wrote:
Kikuchi wrote:Maybe I'll put it into this : you can predict the path of a bullet, but you lack the ability to dodge it.


You stole that from melty blood right? XD
Hmm? I thought that was a pretty generic statement. Nah, that was spur-on-the-moment analogy; didn't really remember if there was such statement in Melty Blood. Anyway, you get the idea. Archer isn't half haxx0r as you thought. Maybe if he teams up with stronger Servants, yes, he would prove an invaluable asset.


....

My entire argument was against archer.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 25th, 2009, 6:25 am

Xanathos wrote:....

My entire argument was against archer.
The "isn't half haxx0r" isn't directed to you. Sorry for creating confusion. :wink:
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Unread postby Qaynan » January 25th, 2009, 4:51 pm

I won't go as far as to say Archer is the strongest servant... But I do think the Archer class seems to be much more h4ax0r than the saber class. I mean seriously... Gil and Archer are both way too good.
And as far as the Gil vs Berserker fight is concerned, I wouldn't even call that a fight. Gil was forced to use enkidu you say? lol... the only reason he was "forced" to use it was because he wanted to show them how superior he was. He could have used hit and run tactics, or just back off a little... he just didn't want to move from his spot to show them that he can beat the "strongest" servant without even moving from his spot. That's just his character. By the way... using enkidu isn't a big deal at all. It's not like it costs him anything, or that it is straining on him. If he had used Enuma Elish it would have been different.

On Archer sniping Berserker... we don't exactly know if Berserker was killed or not by the blast. Even if he was killed by the blast we would have no way to know, since shirou didn't know about god hand at that point. He just saw Berserker come seemingly unharmed after being hit by an at least A blast. God hand can't protect him from that, for sure. So it means Berserker did regen by the time the dust has fallen. But we don't know the extent of the damage he received. Was it fatal or just very damaging? But he certainly received some damage. Ilya has even changed her target from Saber to him after that. Meaning she considered him a bigger threat than Saber.
And Saber would have never survived that sniping. As the dead ends proved.

And about Archer's eye of the mind... you guys are misunderstanding it IMO.
Maybe I'll put it into this : you can predict the path of a bullet, but you lack the ability to dodge it.

It doesn't work that way. Once the bullet is shot and he doesn't have the ability to react to it. It's just too late. The eye of the mind is useless as you say.
But he can predict all the actions before the bullet is shot and chose the action that would make it so that bullet is never shot. That's how it works. Of course, he can do that only as long as there is an at least 1% chance to avoid that outcome. If that outcome is 100% predetermined he wouldn't be able to change it.
His previsions from the eye of the mind(True) work on a much longer time line. This can be shown in how he spared Caster in UBW so that he can use her much later to break his contract from Rin. That's his eye of the mind working there.
So let's suppose he's going to fight Saber, he might not be able to survive an excaliblast... but he can create a situation where Saber won't be able to use it. Like the one in UBW too. Where he forced a stalemate by showing that she would kill both Rin and Shirou if she used it.
And even if he can see sometimes an outcome, he may chose not to take it. Like when fighting Ilya, he probably knew what exactly to do kill her and by extension Berserker. He just didn't want to. For him, Ilya was more important than beating Berserker, he still managed to accomplish his job as Rin's servant by killing Berserker 6 times to make things easier for her later on. He chose the next best thing since he didn't want to use the best one.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 25th, 2009, 5:22 pm

I completely agree with your statement, lord Qaynan :). In fact, this is what i tried (and maybe failed) to explain when i was telling why Archer is the more powerful to me. Not because of stats, or his UBW, just because he is clever. And of course Archer is not the strongest and he can fail too but still, in the defeat, he always manage to make something decisive for a later purpose.
When i say the more powerful, in fact, i would think the more capable of.
No Haxx in Archer, this is obvious. But as Qaynan said, he will make everything possible to avoid the situation when the bullet is shot.
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Unread postby Rikh » January 25th, 2009, 6:16 pm

i would like to state this
Even though Tracing results in a global rankdown in weapon strength, look at UBW

Shiro fought gilgamesh and copied every single one of his weapons. The weapons shiro used were destroyed by Gilgamesh's weapons, but in turn, destroyed Gilgamesh's swords as well. The fact is that the Global rank down doesn't really mean too much, as a B rank weapon is pretty close in strength to an A rank weapon. During UBW, Shiro destroyed every one of gilgamesh's swords with his own swords during the fight, so its easy to assume he could use them against berserker

I mean if Gil went full force on shooting shiro with swords, then that means Shiro is equal to gilgamesh on sword production (for a short period of time), so it could be very possible for Archer to beat Berserker. All he has to do is stay at a safe range, and continuously rain swords down on Berserker, although it would cost him a lot, he could definitely do it, as shiro was able to do the same with less than half the strength and mana of Archer

Anyways, i think its very possible for Archer to beat Berserker if he really needed to, if he fights the same way Gil does, and is fine with using a lot of mana, he could possibly kill berserker in the same fashion.
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Unread postby Mazyrian » January 25th, 2009, 6:53 pm

Rikh wrote:I mean if Gil went full force on shooting shiro with swords, then that means Shiro is equal to gilgamesh on sword production (for a short period of time), so it could be very possible for Archer to beat Berserker. All he has to do is stay at a safe range, and continuously rain swords down on Berserker, although it would cost him a lot, he could definitely do it, as shiro was able to do the same with less than half the strength and mana of Archer

Anyways, i think its very possible for Archer to beat Berserker if he really needed to, if he fights the same way Gil does, and is fine with using a lot of mana, he could possibly kill berserker in the same fashion.


It wouldn't be that easy to stay at safe range; Berserker is one of the fastest Servants. And one hit from him is game over for Archer
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 25th, 2009, 6:54 pm

Well i don t think Archer would beat Berserker like this. GoB and UBW are not use the same way. And i don't know if Gilgamesh would win so easily if Berserker didn't have to tank GoB to protect Ylia. I think they are always contextual advantages to one of the opponent so it renders powerleveling useless. Frankly i still think in a straight battle, Berserker is the strongest.
And i don't know but i'm quit certain Archer can't spam the rain of sword.
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