Most Powerful Servant [Spoilers]

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Who is the most powerful servant overall?

Poll ended at December 1st, 2008, 2:31 am

Saber
7
10%
Lancer
4
6%
Berserker
3
4%
Archer
21
29%
Caster
1
1%
Assassin (Sasaki)
1
1%
Rider
4
6%
Dark Saber
5
7%
Gilgamesh
25
35%
Hassan
1
1%
 
Total votes : 72

Unread postby Inverted » January 19th, 2009, 5:50 am

Shourai wrote:This is where his naivete kicks in. He may talk big, but the Shirou in him just screwed it all. Period.

Thats not naivete .Illya is his sister whom he didnt save . He feels guilty . He tells Shirou in HF as he has taken Illyas hand he should protect her.
He certainly is a screwed up Shirou.
As for some of his actions contradicting his words .All his words were not contradictions in the first place .He knows what he has gotten into and gives repeated warnings to Shirou. However his innate character of helping who he can kicks in, especially Post-answer in UBW . Foolishness yes ,naivete certainly not.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 19th, 2009, 6:17 am

Inverted wrote: his innate character of helping who he can
That is naivete... despite the fact that he already experienced the result before. To the degree of hypocrisy and stubbornness. Archer didn't try to kill HF Shirou because HF Shirou doesn't have such pattern of thinking.

And it is to my contention that a "true user" of Eye of The Mind(True) doesn't have time to be swayed by emotions. Saber could have used that skill much better than Archer. :P
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Unread postby Inverted » January 19th, 2009, 7:40 am

Kikuchi wrote:
Inverted wrote: his innate character of helping who he can
That is naivete... despite the fact that he already experienced the result before. To the degree of hypocrisy and stubbornness. Archer didn't try to kill HF Shirou because HF Shirou doesn't have such pattern of thinking.

That not naivete .Naivete is lack of knowledge about the world. Its being a noble fool. BTW in HF Archer's target had shifted to shadow .He ignored Shirou to go after the shadow. HF Shirou too hopelessly wanted to save Sakura. Even though logic demands he kill her. HF Shirou's thinking probably aligns more with the current state of mind of Archer.
And it is to my contention that a "true user" of Eye of The Mind(True) doesn't have time to be swayed by emotions. P

Archer is never except when he is facing Shirou or with respect to Illya (generally loved ones).He was willing to turn Saber into a Noble Phanntasm pincushion if she got in his way and willing to kill Sakura for the sake of the city. (Whether that is a good thing its a entire different matter.Also He didnt show any hesitancy towards Dark Saber.)
As for Saber not being swayed by emotions. eh??
She is more righteous than Archer and prideful .Archer will backstab , even kill innocents without batting an eyelid if it efficient and delivers result .He would stoop as low as possible if it gets the results.Saber may end up killing innocents but she certainly wont stoop so low even though in battle they are equally emotionless (Which is a good thing ? Decide yourself)
BTW having Nerves of Steel has nothing to do with emotions its just analyzing the situation.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 19th, 2009, 7:59 am

Inverted wrote:That not naivete .Naivete is lack of knowledge about the world. Its being a noble fool. BTW in HF Archer's target had shifted to shadow .He ignored Shirou to go after the shadow. HF Shirou too hopelessly wanted to save Sakura. Even though logic demands he kill her. HF Shirou's thinking probably aligns more with the current state of mind of Archer.
All right, then let me tell you this : Archer behaves exactly the same as Shirou did. What Shirou did is out of naivete; complete lack of understanding of real world. This is not a matter of terms or abbreviations anymore; the point is, Archer behaved the same way as Shirou did.

Archer is never except when he is facing Shirou or with respect to Illya (generally loved ones).He was willing to turn Saber into a Noble Phanntasm pincushion if she got in his way and willing to kill Sakura for the sake of the city. (Whether that is a good thing its a entire different matter.Also He didnt show any hesitancy towards Dark Saber.)
As for Saber not being swayed by emotions. eh??
She is more righteous than Archer and prideful .Archer will backstab , even kill innocents without batting an eyelid if it efficient and delivers result .He would stoop as low as possible if it gets the results.Saber may end up killing innocents but she certainly wont stoop so low even though in battle they are equally emotionless (Which is a good thing ? Decide yourself)
BTW having Nerves of Steel has nothing to do with emotions its just analyzing the situation.
... He was swayed by emotions. Archer is just too busy to see that he resembled Shirou more than he could have felt. There should not be any exceptions AT ALL. All is fair and justifiable in warfare. Letting his own foolishness getting in the way means he could never use his Eye of The Mind to the fullest. You have to become KIRITSUGU in order to do it. Nuff said.

As for Saber's chivalrous code, that has nothing to do with emotions. Since when code of ethics = emotions? Heck, Saber had gone through the life of a King, even sacrificing her "wife" and best knight. She has by far suppressed her emotions more than Archer could. To put it simply, chivalrous != emo. Archer is emo, if I'm going to the extreme. Though I won't disagree that Saber's chivalry too will get in the way.

Also, I never said Eye of The Mind has anything to do with emotions in the process. It's just to maximize its potential, you have to become Kiritsugu. Again, "what's the point of packin' a sword like that if you aren't gonna use it?". You have the skill, but you don't use it out of misplaced sense of justice (or love?).
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Unread postby Inverted » January 19th, 2009, 8:18 am

Shourai wrote: All right, then let me tell you this : Archer behaves exactly the same as Shirou did. What Shirou did is out of naivete; complete lack of understanding of real world. This is not a matter of terms or abbreviations anymore; the point is, Archer behaved the same way as Shirou did.

Naievete is different than being a fool .Yes he behaved the same way as Shioru did .That was because his beliefs not naivete .
He was swayed by emotions. Archer is just too busy to see that he resembled Shirou more than he could have felt. There should not be any exceptions AT ALL. All is fair and justifiable in warfare. Letting his own foolishness getting in the way means he could never use his Eye of The Mind to the fullest. You have to become KIRITSUGU in order to do it. Nuff said.

He could always use his Eye of The Mind to the maximum. As for Kiritsugu his methods are no different than Archers.Read Fate/Zero .All is fair and justifiable in warfare as along as you are not putting a bullet through your loved one who is innocent. This same Kiritsugu was banging the door of the Einzbern castle after HF4 begging them to let him see his daughter.
As for Saber's chivalrous code, that has nothing to do with emotions. Since when code of ethics = emotions? Heck, Saber had gone through the life of a King, even sacrificing her "wife" and best knight. She has by far suppressed her emotions more than Archer could.

Saber's chivalrous code is any different than as you say a misplaced Sense of Justice?
And yeah during HF5 Archer is emo but in a battle he gives his utmost concentration.Not to mention during his lifetime he was an emotionless killing machine.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 19th, 2009, 1:25 pm

i agree with Inverted. Naivete is not an appropriate term to describe Archer. After all, he did kill Saber and Shirou in two bad ends and not in a fair fight. The exception is Ylia because of the guilt. Nothing more.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 19th, 2009, 1:31 pm

Vhailor wrote:i agree with Inverted. Naivete is not an appropriate term to describe Archer. After all, he did kill Saber and Shirou in two bad ends and not in a fair fight. The exception is Ylia because of the guilt. Nothing more.
Fine, emoism then. As long as Archer is still emo, it'll only get in the way. If he's not emo, he wouldn't have any guilt at all in the first place. Ilya's bound to die anyway, it's not like he can do anything for her so get over with it already.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 20th, 2009, 7:09 am

Kiritsugu couldn't get over it either. Which is good IMO .It makes them more likable than being a ruthless backstabber.It shows they care.
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Unread postby that one guy » January 20th, 2009, 5:08 pm

It also took around nine years of being with his wife and daughter for Kiritsugu to feel anything. Had he stayed a Magus killer the entire time, he would still be good old ruthless Kiritsugu.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 21st, 2009, 12:11 am

^What he said.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 21st, 2009, 5:58 am

And it proves?
And BTW Archer NEVER regretted his path when he was alive.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 21st, 2009, 6:06 am

Inverted wrote:And it proves?
And BTW Archer NEVER regretted his path when he was alive.
And is he a Heroic Spirit when he was alive? More likely, was he still alive when he was a Heroic Spirit? If he never regretted it, why would he bother to mock Shirou and all that?

And it proves Kiritsugu degenerated. He can calculate, but he cannot put it into actions anymore, if I am going to the extreme. Stop acting like his attachment towards Ilya won't get in the way, will you? The fight in Fate proves all. Compare it to the UBW one, where Gil crushed Berserker so easily. You should know that Berserker will be willing to tank anything to protect Ilya. Archer should have been able to see through that, if he were THAT great; he won't have to fear for Ilya's safety as long as Berserker is still standing.

tl;dr Even if he (pretend to) aims at Ilya, Archer still won't hit her. That is one naive thinking to face Berserker head on.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 21st, 2009, 6:14 am

Kikuchi wrote:And is he a Heroic Spirit when he was alive? More likely, was he still alive when he was a Heroic Spirit? If he never regretted it, why would he bother to mock Shirou and all that?

? Heroic Spirit =alive ? eh .You truly need to read UBW again. He became what he is after he became a CG.

As for your other points read the above posts.BTW he wont aim at Illya.
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 21st, 2009, 6:18 am

Inverted wrote:
Kikuchi wrote:And is he a Heroic Spirit when he was alive? More likely, was he still alive when he was a Heroic Spirit? If he never regretted it, why would he bother to mock Shirou and all that?

? Heroic Spirit =alive ? eh .You truly need to read UBW again. He became what he is after he became a CG.
Sigh, it really is a bother to make suggestions rather than just stating the facts directly. Archer is NO LONGER alive when he became a Servant. Stating a fact from where he was alive is completely irrelevant.

As for your other points read the above posts.
Would you bother thinking a bit? Archer can aim at Ilya, but Berserker will tank that attack for her. That way, he has no reason to fear for Ilya's safety, if you insist on "feeling guilty towards Ilya" is not relevant on Archer being a foolish emo.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 21st, 2009, 6:21 am

This thread has degenerated into pointless banter.....
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Unread postby Inverted » January 21st, 2009, 6:47 am

Kikuchi wrote: Sigh, it really is a bother to make suggestions rather than just stating the facts directly. Archer is NO LONGER alive when he became a Servant. Stating a fact from where he was alive is completely irrelevant.

No it is relevant to the point I was making.
Would you bother thinking a bit? Archer can aim at Ilya, but Berserker will tank that attack for her. That way, he has no reason to fear for Ilya's safety

Do you think Archer will take that risk with Illya ?Its the person he wanted to save the most .His broken phantasms have a good diameter .Hence he went for pin point attacks. He took the risks with Saber and even with Rin but will not with Illya.He cares for Illya .
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Unread postby wyldfire » January 21st, 2009, 6:48 am

u r comparing gil's archery at berserker to that of archer's??? gil shot his weapons at illya knowing that berserker would tank them and die...i bet he could make a sneak shot at illya past berserker if he wanted to...

let's take a hypothetical scenario,shall we??? archer shoots caladbolg II at berserker and hrunting at illya...how the hell is berserker supposed to tank that???
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Unread postby wyldfire » January 21st, 2009, 6:51 am

^what he said...BPs have a blast radius too...berserker can tank the direct hit but nothing protects illya from the splash damage...hell, a brick can drop from the roof on illya's head from all the explosion and she may die... :lol:

the last brick falling part is a joke


how did i do a double post! :?
sorry mods!
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Unread postby Kikuchi » January 21st, 2009, 6:57 am

Inverted wrote:
Kikuchi wrote: Sigh, it really is a bother to make suggestions rather than just stating the facts directly. Archer is NO LONGER alive when he became a Servant. Stating a fact from where he was alive is completely irrelevant.

No it is relevant to the point I was making.
The discussion was about Servant Archer. And someone was comparing him to Kiritsugu. I don't see why you brought Archer when he was alive to topic. :?

Do you think Archer will take that risk with Illya ?Its the person he wanted to save the most .His broken phantasms have a good diameter .Hence he went for pin point attacks. He took the risks with Saber and even with Rin but will not with Illya.He cares for Illya .
Ok, so he's not even bothering to think through that. That proves that he's just an emo. Eye of The Mind will not work to maximum potential. No further explanation needed.

u r comparing gil's archery at berserker to that of archer's??? gil shot his weapons at illya knowing that berserker would tank them and die...i bet he could make a sneak shot at illya past berserker if he wanted to...
Gil doesn't have Broken Phantasms, mind you... Each of Archer's shot is equal to an A rank NP. While not in Gil's league concerning numbers, his BP is by far greater in power than shot swords.

let's take a hypothetical scenario,shall we??? archer shoots caladbolg II at berserker and hrunting at illya...how the hell is berserker supposed to tank that???
Eye of The Mind (assuming his emoism doesn't get in the way). He can lure Berserker into a good distance from Ilya and then aim at Ilya (AIM.not shoot). Berserker's speed is A. He's fast enough to cover Ilya with his entire body. Then he can shoot without qualms or worries.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 21st, 2009, 7:04 am

Kikuchi wrote:The discussion was about Servant Archer. And someone was comparing him to Kiritsugu. I don't see why you brought Archer when he was alive to topic. :?

Yes yes it was .If you cared to notice it clearly.

Ok, so he's not even bothering to think through that. That proves that he's just an emo. Eye of The Mind will not work to maximum potential. No further explanation needed.

Its called caring not emoism.
He may be emoing when fighting Himself but for Illya it is care.
Eye of The Mind (assuming his emoism doesn't get in the way). He can lure Berserker into a good distance from Ilya and then aim at Ilya (AIM.not shoot). Berserker's speed is A. He's fast enough to cover Ilya with his entire body. Then he can shoot without qualms or worries.

And what will happen? He would have killed Illya by the diameter of the BP .And his normal arrows don't work on Berserker as they are B.And this is assuming Beserker with his A speed will let Archer get away.
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