Most Powerful Servant [Spoilers]

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Who is the most powerful servant overall?

Poll ended at December 1st, 2008, 2:31 am

Saber
7
10%
Lancer
4
6%
Berserker
3
4%
Archer
21
29%
Caster
1
1%
Assassin (Sasaki)
1
1%
Rider
4
6%
Dark Saber
5
7%
Gilgamesh
25
35%
Hassan
1
1%
 
Total votes : 72

Unread postby Inverted » January 18th, 2009, 12:01 pm

Sepheriel wrote: Hell, Saber after being grazed by Gae Bolg WTFpwns Archer when they fight the first time. The only thing that saves him is Rin having him disappear. I think it is a little odd that it takes Archer a long time to recover from Saber's wound at the very beginning yet recovers really fast from his fight with Lancer (one with Rho Aius) and his fight with Gil. Sort of inconsistent in his healing powers. .


It's mentioned time and again Saber was able to slash Archer so easily because he was shocked by her presence not by her attack . He sensed Saber beforehand but he shocked into inaction by who she was not by her attack. Shirou says it, Saber say it, even Rin says it. Even when Shirou stopped Saber in UBW using Command spell he was just staring at her for a few seconds before reacting .As for his healing powers they are not inconsistent. See Archer's identity thread.

Edit :Found them
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 18th, 2009, 2:20 pm

Archer is versatil and tricky. I terms of raw power, he is just average to standard but this doesn't mean anything in this case thanks to UBW (i'm not only refering to the expensed UBW.) and his tactics.
Even what Nasu says highlights this fact : Archer will choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare. (cf Fuyuki Parameter http://web.archive.org/web/200707021627 ... r+rankings). You would think to end the fight against him quickly, but the truth is he would snipe you before you realise it and use your servant against him. If Archer can avoid a fight, he will.
I think Archer is too often underestimated just because of the stats, which is terribly wrong because to only rely on stats is to deny important factors (personnality, UBW, tactics ect.). If stats was the only way to demonstrate the efficiency of a servant, how can ben explained the fact he took 6 lives to Berserker or manage to hold a very good defensive fight against Lancer, who is designed to be a fighter type servant.
Berserker is the strongest of all but he is defeated in the three routes for exemple. Another exemple is True Assassin who is always beaten by the other servants but the guy made it to the end and fails because of Sakura's god mode :p.
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Unread postby solopy567 » January 18th, 2009, 2:31 pm

Archer can never be underestimated. He is so damn GAR underestimation is a sin against him.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 18th, 2009, 3:07 pm

Vhailor wrote:Archer is versatil and tricky. I terms of raw power, he is just average to standard but this doesn't mean anything in this case thanks to UBW (i'm not only refering to the expensed UBW.) and his tactics.
Even what Nasu says highlights this fact : Archer will choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare. (cf Fuyuki Parameter http://web.archive.org/web/200707021627 ... r+rankings). You would think to end the fight against him quickly, but the truth is he would snipe you before you realise it and use your servant against him.
That is, if he manages to hold off and prolong the battle. See, putting it into Star Wars term, Archer is the practitioner of Soresu, the form of lightsaber duel which aims to parry (not blocking, but redirecting) enemy strikes to wear him/her off, and seize his/her openings.

However, that is the particular point : he needs to keep focused on his biggest chance of victory, and just a small fraction of distraction can mean his death. This is most emphasized in the fight against Berserker, when he chose to fight Berserker head on instead of killing Ilya. In short, unless he can get rid of his naivete, his Eye of The Mind merely delays the inevitable.

If Archer can avoid a fight, he will.
Uh, what? Archer was more than capable of running and saving his own butt after he bought the party some time, yet he didn't do it. Even Rin regretted that fact.

If stats was the only way to demonstrate the efficiency of a servant, how can ben explained the fact he took 6 lives to Berserker or manage to hold a very good defensive fight against Lancer, who is designed to be a fighter type servant.
Uh, what? The fact remains that Berserker owned Archer, and 1st fight when Archer successfully fended of Lancer is a bluff. In the second fight, even just a few moments holding Lancer wore down his stamina; he wouldn't be able to keep up much longer.

Berserker is the strongest of all but he is defeated in the three routes for exemple. Another exemple is True Assassin who is always beaten by the other servants but the guy made it to the end and fails because of Sakura's god mode :p.
Let me remind you that Archer is also owned in all routes except in UBW, in which largely thanks to it being HIS route. :P
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Unread postby Rikh » January 18th, 2009, 3:12 pm

i dislike how people rely on stats as well


Here's Gilgamesh's base stats during F/SN

Strength: B
Endurance: C
Agility: C
Mana: B
Luck: A


Simply stated, his Agility is C, Endurance C, and Strength B

Im pretty sure it was stated that having a strength of D is what normal humans can achieve in a lifetime
here are Garchers stats

Strength: D
Endurance: C
Agility: C
Mana: B
Luck: E

Its safe to assume Shiro's Stats are lower than Archers as he has a stat upgrade for making a contract with the world, and being summoned as a Servant during the 5th HF

Still even with these stats, Shirou still pwned gilgamesh in a fair fight in which they both only fought with swords. Shiros strength is below D, yet he stood against Gilgamesh with B rank strength in terms of raw weapon clashing. Honestly this is why i think relying purely on stats for fictional battles is pretty dumb, as it doesn't correlate with information found during a game play experience.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 18th, 2009, 3:53 pm

Just killing Berserker one time is some kind of miracle. I really don't understand why people think of him just like some ranking ladder. Archer took 6 lives but Gilgamesh 12 so Gilgamesh >>> Archer? Pointless. My point wasn't Archer > Berserker for god sake! It is : Archer, with his cheap stats, was able to stand against the strongest servant and kill him 6 times. Just one time is amazing and i think even Saber, who have the potential, can't garanted a kill. She can and maybe will kill him 12 times, but she also can be killed without taking just one lives. So the point wasn't Archer > Berserker or Berserker > Archer, but to highlights the "we don't care about his stats, it doesn't mean anything concerning this guy.

Uh, what? Archer was more than capable of running and saving his own butt after he bought the party some time, yet he didn't do it. Even Rin regretted that fact.

How could you know? We don't know what happened during this battle and Archer escaping from Berserker is not as simple as you would like us to believe in. Shirou in the HF route couldn't escape a blind Berserker despite the arm's buffing effect.

Let me remind you that Archer is also owned in all routes except in UBW, in which largely thanks to it being HIS route.

This is a fiction. Even if Archer survived in the three routes, it would not be the point of my exemple. I make a translation : Every servants are able to pwn every servants. This depends mainly on how they will be used. As a matter of fact, Archer killed Saber in UBW in a Bad End. This is speculation but if you choose to follow the advice from Tohsaka during Berserker and Saber's fight in the graveyard, she dies and probably because Archer nuked her with Caladbolg.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 18th, 2009, 4:10 pm

Vhailor wrote:Just killing Berserker one time is some kind of miracle. I really don't understand why people think of him just like some ranking ladder. Archer took 6 lives but Gilgamesh 12 so Gilgamesh >>> Archer? Pointless. My point wasn't Archer > Berserker for god sake! It is : Archer, with his cheap stats, was able to stand against the strongest servant and kill him 6 times. Just one time is amazing and i think even Saber, who have the potential, can't garanted a kill. She can and maybe will kill him 12 times, but she also can be killed without taking just one lives. So the point wasn't Archer > Berserker or Berserker > Archer, but to highlights the "we don't care about his stats, it doesn't mean anything concerning this guy.
It is generally agreed that among Servants, Archer is not among the top tier, if that's what you thought. Not only raw stats wise, but overall strength.

How could you know? We don't know what happened during this battle and Archer escaping from Berserker is not as simple as you would like us to believe in. Shirou in the HF route couldn't escape a blind Berserker despite the arm's buffing effect.
It IS simple. If he only focused on winning or getting away, he could have aimed at and bombarded Ilya instead of facing Berserker head-on.

This is a fiction. Even if Archer survived in the three routes, it would not be the point of my exemple. I make a translation : Every servants are able to pwn every servants. This depends mainly on how they will be used. As a matter of fact, Archer killed Saber in UBW in a Bad End. This is speculation but if you choose to follow the advice from Tohsaka during Berserker and Saber's fight in the graveyard, she dies and probably because Archer nuked her with Caladbolg.
Well, so be it. This is a fiction, and everything is up to the writer's will. He can even make Archer a God if he wants to. But consider this my one and only point : among fans who actually played the game, it is generally agreed that Archer is an average Servant. Not among the top tier. And would generally lose to stronger Servants.
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Unread postby Inverted » January 18th, 2009, 4:11 pm

Shourai wrote:instead of killing Ilya.

killing Ilya.

Ilya.


What?!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 18th, 2009, 4:27 pm

Never said Archer is in the top tier. What i say is he compensates his lack of power by his tricks and clever mind. This makes the difference. Just like Caster in fact. In Fate et HF, he died, but in the first case because Rin sacrifices him (Yeah, he doesn't want to kill Ylia and i think this is his worst weakness. Not his stats :p.) and in HF, there is another sacrifice type situation with the God mode Sakura. In fact, he never really dies because he failed but because he is confront to an impossible situation for him (if you see what i mean. If he had uber stats, things would maybe turn out different but this is not the case and he wouldn't have the same attitude towards his opponents).
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Unread postby nobaka » January 18th, 2009, 4:30 pm

Inverted wrote:
Shourai wrote:instead of killing Ilya.

killing Ilya.

Ilya.


What?!!!!!!!!!!


Killing the master -> no more Servant. Remember?
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Unread postby Shourai » January 18th, 2009, 4:48 pm

Vhailor wrote:Never said Archer is in the top tier. What i say is he compensates his lack of power by his tricks and clever mind. This makes the difference. Just like Caster in fact. In Fate et HF, he died, but in the first case because Rin sacrifices him (Yeah, he doesn't want to kill Ylia and i think this is his worst weakness. Not his stats :p.) and in HF, there is another sacrifice type situation with the God mode Sakura. In fact, he never really dies because he failed but because he is confront to an impossible situation for him (if you see what i mean. If he had uber stats, things would maybe turn out different but this is not the case and he wouldn't have the same attitude towards his opponents).
Ok then, I'll quote myself from before :
That is, if he manages to hold off and prolong the battle. See, putting it into Star Wars term, Archer is the practitioner of Soresu, the form of lightsaber duel which aims to parry (not blocking, but redirecting) enemy strikes to wear him/her off, and seize his/her openings.

However, that is the particular point : he needs to keep focused on his biggest chance of victory, and just a small fraction of distraction can mean his death. This is most emphasized in the fight against Berserker, when he chose to fight Berserker head on instead of killing Ilya. In short, unless he can get rid of his naivete, his Eye of The Mind merely delays the inevitable.
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Unread postby Vhailor » January 18th, 2009, 5:20 pm

Yup, i agreed with this part. Not with the next ones but we already discuss about it :p.
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Unread postby Qaynan » January 18th, 2009, 6:05 pm

About Archer not being able to survive GaeBolg because he lacks the luck... Luck isn't the only way to block it according to the text in the game:
If one is to oppose that demonic lance, one must...
prepare a shield overwhelming the magical energy of the lance,
have great enough luck to change the fate determined by the lance,
or prevent him from using the lance in the first place.

I think Archer can probably manage the first condition... since Rho Aias was able to block "The Spear of Striking Death Flight" with a B+ rank, it should probably be able to block "The Spear of Impaling Barbed Death" with a B rank... unless Lancer power it up with runes. But I don't suppose he'll do that at first. He'd never expect it to be blocked by the likes of Archer...
I know I also read somewhere in game that Gaebolg doesn't care about defense, armor, or evasive maneuvers... But I think it was just talking damage wise. That defense can't reduce the blow, and that evasive maneuvers can't make it miss the heart. If it hits, you'll always get full damage unless you have great luck. But a spiritual aegis like Rho Aius can probably block the curse of Gaebolg... probably... perhaps...

And about servant rankings... I think they're pointless... because any servant has potentially the ability to win the holy grail war... how he does that is pointless. This isn't a boxing game with rules. The strongest doesn't always win. And even then... in a martial art tournament... it's not the strongest who always wins. Most often yes... but not always. They're a lot of strategy and thinking happening in a fight. And that is Berserkers weakness... he can't think. So he loses an important edge there... and his master Ilya, doesn't seem to do much thinking either...
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Unread postby Rikh » January 18th, 2009, 7:20 pm

Qaynan wrote: how he does that is pointless. This isn't a boxing game with rules. The strongest doesn't always win. And even then... in a martial art tournament... it's not the strongest who always wins. Most often yes...


I think you need to watch Hajime no Ippo ;)

back on topic though...

I would like to agree with you on your past statement. Rho Aius blocked a B+ Gae Bolg attack, if it was just a normal Gae Bolg thrust, then Rho Aius would have blocked it anyways, since Rho Aius is higher ranked and will protect the wielder from spears.

Archer also already knows all the servants abilities, so during his fight at the school, i am sure he could have won. He would have definitely pulled out Rho Aius the second lancer invoked Gae Bolg, and with Tohsaka's support + Lancers Shock + less strain from a weaker attack, lancer would have been defeated (also lancer would not be allowed to retreat after the enemy knowing his NP and identity)
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Unread postby Inverted » January 18th, 2009, 7:45 pm

Shourai wrote:
This is most emphasized in the fight against Berserker, when he chose to fight Berserker head on instead of killing Ilya.

He may kill anyone else but he will not kill Illya.period

In short, unless he can get rid of his naivete, his Eye of The Mind merely delays the inevitable.

Archer naivete

What?
I suggest you reread the entire F/SN. It'll be a pain to post every screenshot where Archer talks.
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Unread postby Xanathos » January 19th, 2009, 12:17 am

Inverted wrote:
Shourai wrote:
This is most emphasized in the fight against Berserker, when he chose to fight Berserker head on instead of killing Ilya.

He may kill anyone else but he will not kill Illya.period

In short, unless he can get rid of his naivete, his Eye of The Mind merely delays the inevitable.

Archer naivete

What?
I suggest you reread the entire F/SN. It'll be a pain to post every screenshot where Archer talks.



Archer
is a pain most of the time. Anyway http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/totallyu ... nkings.htm . On that page is a bunch of interviews with nasu himself. Use that as a reference.
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Unread postby Qaynan » January 19th, 2009, 1:15 am

Xanathos wrote:
Archer
is a pain most of the time. Anyway http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/totallyu ... nkings.htm . On that page is a bunch of interviews with nasu himself. Use that as a reference.

I find it weird in that link that - Dragon Tooth Warrior ≥ Fuji-nee
I mean seriously... Shirou with a wood stick was able to defend maybe even beat a couple of those. Kendo wise there is no way Shirou was better than Taiga. So I expect her to be stronger than the dragon tooth warriors (using a real katana of course... not the Tora-shinai lol). Well for the rest... I can't really say much. But the Nasu interviews do give some interesting insights.
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Unread postby Shourai » January 19th, 2009, 1:27 am

Inverted wrote:
Shourai wrote:
This is most emphasized in the fight against Berserker, when he chose to fight Berserker head on instead of killing Ilya.

He may kill anyone else but he will not kill Illya.period
This is where his naivete kicks in. He may talk big, but the Shirou in him just screwed it all. Period.

What?
I suggest you reread the entire F/SN. It'll be a pain to post every screenshot where Archer talks.
Do you not know that every time he sneered, jeered, or talked big, almost none of them really happens? That's right, he resembled Shirou in his naivete far more than he could imagine himself. Yes, and it would also be a pain in the arse to counter-post the scenes where his actions contradicts his speeches.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » January 19th, 2009, 3:05 am

So in the end we always find a way to come back and talk about GARcher's abilities once again. It seems like he's either overpowered or has his powers very understated. In any case he and Gil are considered a rough bunch due to the fact of thier Independant Action Ability. Since Gil's it like around an A, he could manage without a Master at all, while GARcher has olny 3 days at most without a Master.
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Unread postby wyldfire » January 19th, 2009, 5:04 am

can rho aius really block impaling barbed eath??? i mean its supposed to be effective against thrown weapons...so its fully in effect against death flight and blocks it but will it be the same against impaling barbed death???besides the rank of impaling barbed death doesn't matter 'coz it'll always pierce the heart if the luck roll fails...
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