What you didn't like about the series [Spoilers!]

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Unread post by xthr » November 28th, 2008, 12:08 am

stryk3r wrote:Shirou. To be honest I hated my own avatar in two of the three routes. His arguments with Saber, where both would correctly criticize the other for never thinking of their own interests, the way he continues ignoring the fallacy of his ideals in UBW rather than revise them, even though the ultimate incarnation of them is bitter and self loathing, the Tohsaka H scene, he just kept on getting under my skin at every turn. He did redeem himself in HF though, so maybe I'm being a bit harsh.
2nd'd. The thing that prevented me from enjoying fsn the most was just Shirou. I didn't like him in fate, I hated him in UBW, and he still slightly ticked me off in HF.

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Unread post by Rikh » November 28th, 2008, 12:31 am

In UBW shiro was epic, i loved that route the most

HF was just the most surprising/strange route of the bunch
Honestly HF felt like an entire different game

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Unread post by xthr » November 28th, 2008, 12:34 am

Rikh wrote:In UBW shiro was epic, i loved that route the most

HF was just the most surprising/strange route of the bunch
Honestly HF felt like an entire different game
I guess we just have different tastes for heroes/protagonists.
My favorite protag is the rakkyo shiki :p
Apathetic and merciless

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Unread post by Rikh » November 28th, 2008, 12:54 am

xthr wrote:
Rikh wrote:In UBW shiro was epic, i loved that route the most

HF was just the most surprising/strange route of the bunch
Honestly HF felt like an entire different game
I guess we just have different tastes for heroes/protagonists.
My favorite protag is the rakkyo shiki :p
Apathetic and merciless
he is fake/shiki right?

I never got why Akira got attached to T Shiki... T Shiki acted just like fake shiki... you would think she would be horrified by that or something

they even went to the same place to eat!
ugh oh well =P

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Unread post by Nerroth » November 28th, 2008, 1:32 am

The reference is to Ryougi Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai (Rakkyo)...

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Unread post by Inverted » November 28th, 2008, 11:20 am

Raitei wrote:
► Show Spoiler
there you go.
LOL!! I was complaining about that, No HCG's for Caster . *Grumble*

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Unread post by Uthred » December 13th, 2008, 4:12 am

I have to say Shirou was the most annoying thing about the series. It was probably the heady mix of pure idiocy combined with his oppressive levels of sexism that did it for me. There were far too many times when he came across as having the same kind of skewed uber-patriarchal and condescending viewpoint commonly espoused by your average hentai protagonist. Actually that's probably the root of the problem, while Shiki for example seemed like a believeable enough fictional character Shirou felt much more like a caricature. His viewpoints and actions were often so skewed as to rob the events of any kind of verisimilitude.

Not to go on about it, but really the manner in which his "chivalry" was presented was so stilted and cloyingly sexist that it turned otherwise fine scene's into something to be endured rather than enjoyed. I think it was how he felt the need to externalise and enforce his values of female inferiority whereas well done examples of the same kind of "chivalry" keep their codes of conduct internalised or base it on simple personal preference rather than an innate belief in the inferiority of women (leaving aside the argument that such codes of conduct may be inherently sexist) e.g. Kenichi from History's Strongest Disciple or Shinji from One Piece.

This wasnt helped by the h-scenes which often seemed overly gratuitous, featuring the same kind of "on-display" sensationalism common to garden variety pornography. They didnt feel like organic outgrowths (no pun intended) of the story, rather they felt like wooden "back by contractual demand/fan expectation" vignets shoved in merely to shift units.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 13th, 2008, 4:39 am

Mmmm, I am more impressed by your vocabulary than your arguments. You should seriously consider pursuing a major in English or the Fine Arts. Since it is hard to distinguish genuine compliments and sarcasm over the Internet, I will state that what I said was meant to praise.

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Unread post by Shiki>Servants » December 13th, 2008, 4:47 am

Shirou.
And the fact that for some reason i expected something as good as Tsukihime, and found a generic shonen tail.

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Altima of the Gates
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Unread post by Altima of the Gates » December 13th, 2008, 4:02 pm

Uthred wrote:I have to say Shirou was the most annoying thing about the series. It was probably the heady mix of pure idiocy combined with his oppressive levels of sexism that did it for me. There were far too many times when he came across as having the same kind of skewed uber-patriarchal and condescending viewpoint commonly espoused by your average hentai protagonist. Actually that's probably the root of the problem, while Shiki for example seemed like a believeable enough fictional character Shirou felt much more like a caricature. His viewpoints and actions were often so skewed as to rob the events of any kind of verisimilitude.

Not to go on about it, but really the manner in which his "chivalry" was presented was so stilted and cloyingly sexist that it turned otherwise fine scene's into something to be endured rather than enjoyed. I think it was how he felt the need to externalise and enforce his values of female inferiority whereas well done examples of the same kind of "chivalry" keep their codes of conduct internalised or base it on simple personal preference rather than an innate belief in the inferiority of women (leaving aside the argument that such codes of conduct may be inherently sexist) e.g. Kenichi from History's Strongest Disciple or Shinji from One Piece.

This wasnt helped by the h-scenes which often seemed overly gratuitous, featuring the same kind of "on-display" sensationalism common to garden variety pornography. They didnt feel like organic outgrowths (no pun intended) of the story, rather they felt like wooden "back by contractual demand/fan expectation" vignets shoved in merely to shift units.
► Show Spoiler
Also, I'm getting tired of people misinterpreting the UBW scene.
► Show Spoiler
Further,
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 13th, 2008, 6:42 pm

Closet Rapist? Shiki? All because of that ONE scene where it wasn't even his FAULT?

I can't see how anyone can think Shirou is better than Shiki, character wise. I'll usually say everyone has different opinions, but this is a fact! People die when they're shot in the heart, and Shiki will always be better than Shirou. It's just a fact you can't change.

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Unread post by Uthred » December 13th, 2008, 7:00 pm

Im confused on two levels. The first is a fairly abstract level and I'll mention it first - the title of the thread is not "What is wrong with the series", it is "What dont you like about the series" i.e. it is asking for opinions not well reasoned "objective arguments". That aside my secondary source of confusion is your response which often seem's (at best) tangentially related to what I actually wrote.
Altima of the Gates wrote:However, you may also notice that even though in the beginning, he said, "It's not right for girls to fight," he does progressively change his opinion over the course of the game, and even says that he is wrong to believe that he can do everything by himself. Also, another thing to note, he never tells Rin that she shouldn't be fighting, he only ever said such things to Saber, who he viewed as just a short, thin limbed girl. Yet I say again though, he revised such an opinion and viewed her as a partner to entrust his back to, and that didn't take long. So if its just the sexism you're talking about, it didn't last nearly as long. Ireally just think you're making too much out of minimal parts of the game. So no, Shirou doesn't think females should "Fate/Stay in the kitchen."[/spoil]
I disagree that he changes his opinion in any meaningful manner. While there is occasional lip service towards the idea that maybe Saber is actually competent such inner monologue's are almost always subverted by his actions. At best he grudgingly accepts the fact that Saber has to fight (and then undermines this decision every chance he gets by telling her she shouldnt). I never felt that there was substantive evidence that he actually regarded Saber as an equal rather than a source of affection to be protected. Im also unsure what metric your using for saying "that didnt take long". If memory serves he only accepts the reality that Saber has to fight well after the halfway point.Its been a while since Ive played the game though and as Im currently replaying it I may re-assess my opinon when the information is fresher in my mind.

I agree that his relation with Rin generally didnt have the same oddly condescending dynamic that his relationship with Saber did. But Im not sure what one has to do with the other. If he's sexist in one and not in the other they dont "balance out". I also disagree that it didnt last too long - its present for almost the entire length of the game in most lengthy exchanges between Shirou and Saber. I also disagree that Shirou's interactions with Saber are a "minor part of the game".
Altima of the Gates wrote: Also, I'm getting tired of people misinterpreting the UBW scene.
► Show Spoiler
I have no idea what this has to do with my post, perhaps you would care to explain? To be honest when I was talking about "h-scenes which often seemed overly gratuitous" the prime example would be the first one - the threeway between Shirou, saber and Rin.
Altima of the Gates wrote: Further,
► Show Spoiler
As you say this is largely a matter of taste, its also something of a given that when one is dicussing how realistic a fictional character is that its subjective - its not like there are objective ways to measure opinion. Im also slightly confused by some of your comments. Firstly I dont recall Shiki ever denying he had the mystic eyes of death perception (well to himself anyway) - he may not have been fond of them but he certainly knew and accepted that they existed. I also never even used the word charisma in my post so Im not sure what that has to do with what I said - I merely used Shiki as an example of a fictional character that I felt was more believeable than Shirou. I made no judgement values about what kind of person Shiki was, which makes objecting to them slightly confusing.

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Unread post by Altima of the Gates » December 13th, 2008, 7:04 pm

Matter of opinion my friend.
and:
Mkilbride wrote:People die when they're shot in the heart, and Shiki will always be better than Shirou. It's just a fact you can't change.
Lol. :lol: Tell that to Kotomine. :wink:

@Uthred:

Firstly, sorry, the second and third points weren't directed at your points. So I apologize if it looked like I was getting on you for no reason.
For the first, I made the comparison to his relationship with Rin because you made it seem like he was a hopeless chauvinist, when in fact he does have differing opinions when concerning different women, like Taiga for example. My point was, if his sexism is all you have to go on, then those scenes were few and far between.
Also, I am entitled to my own opinion, no matter what the name of the thread is, as long as I don't make a scene.

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Unread post by Uthred » December 13th, 2008, 7:43 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote: @Uthred:

Firstly, sorry, the second and third points weren't directed at your points. So I apologize if it looked like I was getting on you for no reason.
For the first, I made the comparison to his relationship with Rin because you made it seem like he was a hopeless chauvinist, when in fact he does have differing opinions when concerning different women, like Taiga for example. My point was, if his sexism is all you have to go on, then those scenes were few and far between.
Also, I am entitled to my own opinion, no matter what the name of the thread is, as long as I don't make a scene.
Ah yeah I thought that might be the case just wanted to clarify it. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on the prevalence of sexism in the game, as I said I find most exchanges between Shirou and Saber to be fairly sexist so in my opinion theres quite a lot of material. You are of course entitled to your opinion, sorry if I seemed to be coming across as implying something else. While our opinions may be different obviously neither is superior.

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Unread post by Mkilbride » December 13th, 2008, 9:53 pm

Altima of the Gates wrote:Matter of opinion my friend.
and:
Mkilbride wrote:People die when they're shot in the heart, and Shiki will always be better than Shirou. It's just a fact you can't change.
Lol. :lol: Tell that to Kotomine. :wink:

@Uthred:

Firstly, sorry, the second and third points weren't directed at your points. So I apologize if it looked like I was getting on you for no reason.
For the first, I made the comparison to his relationship with Rin because you made it seem like he was a hopeless chauvinist, when in fact he does have differing opinions when concerning different women, like Taiga for example. My point was, if his sexism is all you have to go on, then those scenes were few and far between.
Also, I am entitled to my own opinion, no matter what the name of the thread is, as long as I don't make a scene.
Actually Kotomine did die. If it was not for the grail, he would of died from being shot in the heart, so...

But if a person is shot in the heart and the grail leaks in, sure, you'll live. :P

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Unread post by Levethix » December 13th, 2008, 11:03 pm

What I didn't like was the fact it ended too quickly. I think I read fate in two days. UBW in one. and HF in about one and a half with no sleep. :(

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Unread post by solopy567 » December 13th, 2008, 11:45 pm

I really didn't like the story behind Dark Saber in HF, and how she died.
Her appearance didn't help much either. Those black things on her face, those weird sunglsses, and that pitch black armour isn't really what I expect in a corrupted character

I expected it to be like a Shirou/Saber thing when he kills her, but no, he just going on to Sakura

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Unread post by Raitei » December 14th, 2008, 12:47 am

Mkilbride wrote:I can't see how anyone can think Shirou is better than Shiki, character wise. I'll usually say everyone has different opinions, but this is a fact! People die when they're shot in the heart, and Shiki will always be better than Shirou. It's just a fact you can't change.
don't try to shove down an opinion (utterly biased, personal opinion) as a fact to other's throat. that's just not right.

even if nasu does say shiki > shirou, it's his opinion. not a fact.
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 14th, 2008, 1:56 am

After finishing two routes in Tsukihime (Ciel and Hisui if anyone is curious), I have to say that I like Shirou better than Shiki. I'm not exactly sure why either. I just didn't like Shiki's attitude. It may have been Nasu's inexperience at the time, but I don't feel like Shiki's emotions were expressed enough. His anger seemed "annoyed" at best, and he always seems too reserved and modest. But, this isn't about Tsukihime, its about F/SN. I personally really like Shirou. I don't think Shirou is sexist. He doesn't belittle Saber or say that she is incapable. He just doesn't want to see a girl fight. I'm not sure why you think that is sexist. He is a person who lives his life as a sword, so its no wonder why he would rather fight than let her. If he cares about someone he will try to protect them with all his might. I'm sure in Saber's case he had a crush on her and felt the same way (referring to the beginning when he just meets her). I think this is less prevalent with Rin because she is more of a ranged fighter and in less danger, much less swinging around a "dangerous weapon" like Saber. I wouldn't call his morals chivalry so much as just overly protective and selfless.

Also, after playing the game I couldn't really call Shirou stupid anymore. He does think things out, as displayed by his innumerable inner monologues, he just makes choices based on his morals rather than whats the most reasonable. I personally don't think theres anything wrong with this. Its actually what most people do. As I've experienced, most people do not act on reason but emotion. Not to mention Shirou automatically and unconsciously places more value on the life of others over his own, which can't be helped because of his past.
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Unread post by xthr » December 14th, 2008, 2:59 am

@ Watashimo,

Mmm. I dunno about that. First of all, once again, this is a matter of opinion and preferences, so I wont try to impose my views on anyone, so if it seems like I'm doing so, ignore it. Think of it as a rant if you want.:

I think Shiki's personality is just fundamentally different than Shirou. I would say Shirou is more of the traditional shounen hero: loud, brash, and... well "heroic" I guess? I thought that in FSN, Shirou's reactions to things were a bit over the top, not necessarily realistic (once again, I stress that this is my view and my preferences). I, however, think that Shirou is definitely colored by Japanese moral values, or more specifically, the idea that women should be/needs to be protected, which is pretty apparent in FSN. All the heroines have to have some kind of shortfall that Shirou needs to "save" them from.
► Show Spoiler

Out of the heroines, I think Saber is the most independent, but Shirou still ends up treating her as a little girl, even when she repeated demonstrates she is a hella lot stronger than he is. This IS up for interpretations, but I remember playing through FSN, thinking "Wow. Modern day sexism is quite common." quite often, in all three routes. In fact, I think I thought that the least in HF, because Sakura is already so wishywashy that the sexism doesn't seem as apparently, as Sakura seems to welcome it. I think Shirou's fundamental belief that "if it doesn't have a penis, it has to be protected" is rather self-evident throughout the game, and it's pretty hard to argue otherwise. He may have gotten a bit better after fighting with Saber and the group, but it doesn't change the fact that he just assumed females are weaker. I don't know about you, but it doesn't quite sit well with me. I know anime and japanese things does this quite often, but Shirou's case just gets under my nerves.

Anyways, I think Nasu MEANT to make Shiki a lot more reserved and modest than Shirou. This is characterized by many things.

Shirou would be a swordsman, a knight if you would. He is both figurative and literally a sword. He walks the path of a super-hero, always with his ideals in the open. He is the kind of person that would charge into the fray without a second thought.
Shiki on the other hand, is an assassin. His weapon of choice is a knife, a small hidden weapon. He doesn't brandish his weapon outright, but in many cases, it's just as effective. He is more modest and reserved, but deadly nonetheless. Just because he doesn't run up to his enemy screaming their name
► Show Spoiler
, doesn't mean he doesn't have emotions.
► Show Spoiler
To me, Shirou is the well meaning idealist: morals to the max; Shiki is the normal person, living his life to his fullest, but also trying to help people he comes in contact with. This fundamental difference in ideals is the thing that separates the two characters. Shirou wants to save everyone, Shiki wants to live his life with the people he cares about. I do NOT think that this makes Shiki any less "good" or "moral" than Shirou. In fact, I think that this makes Shiki a lot easier to identify and believe than Shirou for those of us that do not enjoy comic book style heroism.

PS. I liked Shinji purely as a character design in FSN. He was VERY effective in what Nasu intended, a coward to make people angry. He doesn't annoy me as much as Shirou, who seems like he would fit more in a shounen manga.

PSS. Actually I think Shirou does fit in FSN as well. I just cannot agree with him I guess :p

...Wow that was a bit longer than i expected.

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