What you didn't like about the series [Spoilers!]

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Unread postby Uthred » December 14th, 2008, 10:56 am

Watashimo wrote: But, this isn't about Tsukihime, its about F/SN. I personally really like Shirou. I don't think Shirou is sexist. He doesn't belittle Saber or say that she is incapable. He just doesn't want to see a girl fight. I'm not sure why you think that is sexist.


I should point out that Im not particularly sensitive about the whole sexism issue. It has to be laid on pretty thick for me to care and as this is the case I find it incomprehensible that you think Shirou isnt at least a little sexist. Considering the patriarchal nature of Japanese society it would be odd if he wasnt at least a little sexist in outlook - I just happen to think he's extremely sexist. I also think its an extremely generous reading of the text to say that he doesnt belittle Saber or her abilities. He doesnt want her to fight because she is a frail little girl (there are numerous areas in the text where he goes on about how weedy and frail she is) - he's clearly a chauvinst as he discriminates againsts Saber based purely on her gender. I dont have a particular stake in convincing people of my opinion that hes sexist so I'll bow out with this (apologies if this seems like Im running off with my fingers in my ears ;) ).

Watashimo wrote:
Also, after playing the game I couldn't really call Shirou stupid anymore. He does think things out, as displayed by his innumerable inner monologues, he just makes choices based on his morals rather than whats the most reasonable. I personally don't think theres anything wrong with this. Its actually what most people do. As I've experienced, most people do not act on reason but emotion. Not to mention Shirou automatically and unconsciously places more value on the life of others over his own, which can't be helped because of his past.


Im sorry to disagree with you again; I think Shirou is quite clearly stupid. To address your arguement on two levels. Firstly Shirou quite often makes foolish decisions that have nothing to do with his morals e.g. his decision to go and see Kirei by himself - these is no moral imperative to the action he simply wants information and willfully discards the instructions from Saber (cause she's a girl ;) ) and Rin not to go out alone as well as the evidence that bad shit happens when he goes out alone - this is basically textbook stupidity. Secondly, even when he does make decisions based on his morals they are still stupid decisions we simply know the reason for it. Much as I dislike quoting things in friendly discussion I think this may be relevant -

"Stupidity (also called fatuity) is the property a person, action or belief instantiates by virtue of having or being indicative of low intelligence or poor learning abilities. Stupidity is distinct from irrationality because stupidity denotes an incapability or unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information. "

I think its quite clear that Shirou evidences a marked "incapability or unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information." ergo he is stupid. As you say above, his stupid decisions are often generated by his staunch moral beliefs - this is a rather common characteristic of shounen protagonists. Its not necessarily a bad thing and can often generate empathy with the character (because as you mention above most people are familiar with making emotionally directed choices) or dramatic tension between whats best/most expedient and what the character feels he "must do". It still doesnt make it clever though.
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 14th, 2008, 2:23 pm

Meh. You got me there. I dunno, I just can't seem to hate Shirou like everyone else does. I hated him in the anime, but after playing the game I actually understood him and liked him. I'm highly against prejudices and discrimination, but I don't think Shirou meant to hurt anyone with his sexism. Thats probably why I accept it. Even if he was clearly mistaken on girls being weak and incapable, its not like he was trying to insult them. He merely thought girls are something that are to be protected. And yes, by your definition he may have been stupid, but I don't think he was wrong in the grand scheme of things. As with him going to Kotomine, he even apologized to Saber in his mind and said that he needed to find something out. Even though Saber didn't like the church because it wasn't "a holy place" I don't think even she expected Kotomine to be a Master. It may be his pure awesomeness in the UBW and HF fight scenes that are influencing my judgment, but thats the way I see it. Theres also the fact that I hold a lot of respect for him because he is able to continually pursue a beautiful ideal like being "a protector of justice." Not many people have that kind of will power and determination. Much less so for pursuing a childish but pure ideal like that. :)
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 14th, 2008, 2:30 pm

That's the thing, it's childish. "Save everyone"? That is a foolish dream. If I was asked to kill a thousand people to save five-thousand people, I'd do it. People say "Think of their families"

I am, the 5000 have many more families. Shirous ideal is flawed that he wants to save everyone and I hate those kind of people. They are the kind that at those times do nothing and let everyone die.

In all honesty, Shirou will never be a real Hero, even in his Archer route when he becomes him, Archer still wasn't a Hero. A REAL Protector of Justice does what ever is best, not what he thinks is best, therfore he is an egotist.
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Unread postby Uthred » December 14th, 2008, 2:49 pm

Mkilbride wrote:That's the thing, it's childish. "Save everyone"? That is a foolish dream. If I was asked to kill a thousand people to save five-thousand people, I'd do it. People say "Think of their families"

I am, the 5000 have many more families. Shirous ideal is flawed that he wants to save everyone and I hate those kind of people. They are the kind that at those times do nothing and let everyone die.

In all honesty, Shirou will never be a real Hero, even in his Archer route when he becomes him, Archer still wasn't a Hero. A REAL Protector of Justice does what ever is best, not what he thinks is best, therfore he is an egotist.


Even though I find Shirou irritiating I have to disagree with you here. "Heroes" in the "protector of justice" sense certainly wouldnt kill X to save X+1 - thats the action of a realist and by definition the "protector of justice" is an idealist. This is hardly a trope unique to japanese "super-hero's" - its a classic super-hero trope. How many issues of Superman, Spiderman or Batman are there where they off a few hundred people to save a few thousand? An unbending moral system is one of the core fictional conceits of the classic superhero.

Also Shirou is clearly not an egotist as egotist's have no direct concern for anyone other than themselves. He's also not an egoist which may be what you meant. Shirou is unrealistically altrusitic - like most traditional super-hero's. The problem is that Shirou exists in a world that, while unlrealistic, is realistic in a manner which directly contradicts with the viewpoint of a "superhero" - much like our own world. This conflict between idealism and reality creates dramatic tension and is often the root cause of Shirou looking foolish. Its also the reason that Shirou never really manages to be a real superhero - because in reality and the in the fictional reality of the story being a superhero is an unachievable goal.
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 14th, 2008, 10:24 pm

Mkilbride wrote:I am, the 5000 have many more families. Shirous ideal is flawed that he wants to save everyone and I hate those kind of people. They are the kind that at those times do nothing and let everyone die.


While Uthred said much of what I wanted to, I have to say this. If you read UBW AT ALL, you will know that Shirou DID do that. He killed to save as many as possible. He may have wanted to save everyone, but he eventually accepted that you can't and merely tried to save everyone in his view. He killed and killed and was in the end betrayed by someone he saved. It explains Archer's life in UBW :P
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 14th, 2008, 10:38 pm

No, that's what happened to Archer AFTER he became a CG. He was forced to do those things, it betrayed his ideal and he was forced to live eternal pain, which is why he took such a risky gamble to kill Shirou, so he wouldn't experience. He was jumping for joy to die for other people(even if he was betrayed), but the fact his IDEAL betrayed him is what he couldn't take.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 14th, 2008, 10:43 pm

Mkilbride wrote:A REAL Protector of Justice does what ever is best, not what he thinks is best, therfore he is an egotist.


First, lawl at the ONE TRUE JUSTICE.
Not like perception, beliefs, feelings, or situational awareness have anything to do with assessing a situation, amirite?

Mkilbride wrote:Shirous ideal is flawed that he wants to save everyone and I hate those kind of people. They are the kind that at those times do nothing and let everyone die.


Yes, his ideal IS childish. I seem to remember something about Archer realizing how flawed it was and actually going back in time to kill himself. Point is, he's young. He's bound to say stupid things. (I'm looking at you, people who die when they're killed.) Moreover, his father was (as far as he could tell) a hero of justice, someone he idolized, and a guy who could use magic. How fucked up is it to be the only survivor of a catastrophically destructive event and be rescued by a guy who tries (even though he admits he can't) to save everyone.

Mkilbride wrote:That's the thing, it's childish. "Save everyone"? That is a foolish dream. If I was asked to kill a thousand people to save five-thousand people, I'd do it. People say "Think of their families"


I'd really like to see you attempt to explain to some kid why you killed HIS parents to save someone else's. No, really. As someone in the medical field who does, in fact, have to break this kind of news to children and parents (veterinary technician/student), I'd like any help I can get.
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 14th, 2008, 11:00 pm

Mkilbride wrote:No, that's what happened to Archer AFTER he became a CG. He was forced to do those things, it betrayed his ideal and he was forced to live eternal pain, which is why he took such a risky gamble to kill Shirou, so he wouldn't experience. He was jumping for joy to die for other people(even if he was betrayed), but the fact his IDEAL betrayed him is what he couldn't take.


Read again, he did it during his life. He killed those who would minimize the damage by dying and only saved the people in his sight. Its just that he killed even more during his time as a CG. It was only after he became a CG that he had to kill everyone and save nobody - which is why he turned out like Archer. At the end of his life he had no regrets, because he saved everyone he could, but after he became a CG he was summoned into hell and had to kill pretty much everyone that was in his sight.
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Unread postby Rikh » December 15th, 2008, 1:21 am

Watashimo wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:No, that's what happened to Archer AFTER he became a CG. He was forced to do those things, it betrayed his ideal and he was forced to live eternal pain, which is why he took such a risky gamble to kill Shirou, so he wouldn't experience. He was jumping for joy to die for other people(even if he was betrayed), but the fact his IDEAL betrayed him is what he couldn't take.


Read again, he did it during his life. He killed those who would minimize the damage by dying and only saved the people in his sight. Its just that he killed even more during his time as a CG. It was only after he became a CG that he had to kill everyone and save nobody - which is why he turned out like Archer. At the end of his life he had no regrets, because he saved everyone he could, but after he became a CG he was summoned into hell and had to kill pretty much everyone that was in his sight.


what he said :)

Counter Guardians kill threats to the world, a good open example of Archers job could be addressed in the doujin Sword Dancers.

Archer did save thousands of people as a counter guardian numerous times, its just that he will never see the results of his tasks. He is also assigned to kill the bad people and the good people, as long as they threaten the world, they have to die.

Shiro and Archer are heroes in ever sense of the nasuverse. Its even quoted from archer that shiros ideals to be a hero is just to be a cleaner (read fate route, i was trying to get my tiger stamps and came across that)

Plus honestly, its shiro's heroic attitude that saved his whole town in all three routes. Who cares if he cant save everybody? if he can save some people, then isnt that a remarkable feat alone?
Dont belittle shiro mkilbride ;) Shiro is a idealistic person who still in the end... saves people he gets the chance to.
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 15th, 2008, 1:43 am

Is it possible for him to save the world if theres nuclear war , i mean can Rho Aias block modern weopons? And also did he save the world from supernatural or political threats? :shock:
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Unread postby Raitei » December 15th, 2008, 1:51 am

Xamdou wrote:Is it possible for him to save the world if theres nuclear war , i mean can Rho Aias block modern weopons? And also did he save the world from supernatural or political threats? :shock:
hmm, the best he can manage is to kill the potential threats before they start a nuclear war. and yes, I remember he did intervene and save the world from a political threat.

btw, back to topic guys. :P
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 15th, 2008, 1:51 am

He made a contract with the world to save a few hundred people from certain death, which is pretty underwhelming.
Edit: too slow
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 15th, 2008, 1:55 am

ok back to topic , i didn't like the series cause theres too much ero scenes in HF route :( i prefer more on the main points rather then ero ero things :P
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Unread postby Rikh » December 15th, 2008, 2:45 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:He made a contract with the world to save a few hundred people from certain death, which is pretty underwhelming.
Edit: too slow


(off-topic lol)
Well if you consider saving a few hundred people under-whelming... i would like to see what daily heroic deeds you do ;) saving in the double digits is downright amazing in my book

Back on topic:
I didnt like how in UBW... we didnt get to see too much rinxshiro development... Like you saw a lot of moe tsundere moments, but you never got to establish a love much with the packed storyline. (Although i loved the ending of it.... both of them, lol)
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Unread postby Xamdou » December 15th, 2008, 2:47 am

Rikh wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:He made a contract with the world to save a few hundred people from certain death, which is pretty underwhelming.
Edit: too slow


(off-topic lol)
Well if you consider saving a few hundred people under-whelming... i would like to see what daily heroic deeds you do ;) saving in the double digits is downright amazing in my book

Back on topic:
I didnt like how in UBW... we didnt get to see too much rinxshiro development... Like you saw a lot of moe tsundere moments, but you never got to establish a love much with the packed storyline. (Although i loved the ending of it.... both of them, lol)
I couldn't even save an ant from being crush by human lol :cry:
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 16th, 2008, 12:06 am

Considering how powerful an entity the World is, invoking its power just to save a few hundred people is indeed underwhelming. However, on the flip side, it is good to know that the World values Archer's ability so much that his servitude is worth a few hundred people's lives.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 16th, 2008, 1:55 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Considering how powerful an entity the World is, invoking its power just to save a few hundred people is indeed underwhelming. However, on the flip side, it is good to know that the World values Archer's ability so much that his servitude is worth a few hundred people's lives.


Well, it's a few hundred people quite a few times over (more than one occasion, I mean).
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Unread postby Watashimo » December 16th, 2008, 5:20 am

nobaka wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Considering how powerful an entity the World is, invoking its power just to save a few hundred people is indeed underwhelming. However, on the flip side, it is good to know that the World values Archer's ability so much that his servitude is worth a few hundred people's lives.


Well, it's a few hundred people quite a few times over (more than one occasion, I mean).


Really? I thought he invoked the power of the World once and was betrayed after that, leading to his death. I don't remember it ever saying he saved a few hundred people several times.
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Unread postby nobaka » December 16th, 2008, 7:41 am

Watashimo wrote:
nobaka wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Considering how powerful an entity the World is, invoking its power just to save a few hundred people is indeed underwhelming. However, on the flip side, it is good to know that the World values Archer's ability so much that his servitude is worth a few hundred people's lives.


Well, it's a few hundred people quite a few times over (more than one occasion, I mean).


Really? I thought he invoked the power of the World once and was betrayed after that, leading to his death. I don't remember it ever saying he saved a few hundred people several times.


I'm assuming after he was made a Counter Guardian, he did some other shit. Other battles, and all that. Otherwise he probably wouldn't know as much about actually being a Counter Guardian (when he was asking Saber if she was one) and about Heaven's Feel in general.

I'm pretty sure he was betrayed before he made his contract with the world. That was what led to his death.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » December 16th, 2008, 8:06 am

nobaka wrote:
Watashimo wrote:
nobaka wrote:[quote="Keeper of Gil's Vault"]Considering how powerful an entity the World is, invoking its power just to save a few hundred people is indeed underwhelming. However, on the flip side, it is good to know that the World values Archer's ability so much that his servitude is worth a few hundred people's lives.


Well, it's a few hundred people quite a few times over (more than one occasion, I mean).


Really? I thought he invoked the power of the World once and was betrayed after that, leading to his death. I don't remember it ever saying he saved a few hundred people several times.


I'm assuming after he was made a Counter Guardian, he did some other shit. Other battles, and all that. Otherwise he probably wouldn't know as much about actually being a Counter Guardian (when he was asking Saber if she was one) and about Heaven's Feel in general.

I'm pretty sure he was betrayed before he made his contract with the world. That was what led to his death.[/quote]

No, he saved them and made the contract, and then was betrayed for political reasons, by one of the people he saved.
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