True power of Archer (spoilers)

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True power of Archer (spoilers)

Unread postby BlackTornado » November 19th, 2008, 4:36 am

In the prologue, Archer claimed and Rin would realize how lucky she was to have summoned him, as well as that he is the strongest servant. Now we all know that he has a bloated ego.
he died in both fate and hf, so there!
and also
the power of his ubw seems really blown out of proportion. It is mentioned that against normal servants, it would only be an annoyance. Only against gil does it become imba
So what is his true strength, objectively speaking? Ie what is he really suited for?

Perhaps we can look at his:
hand-to-hand abilities (benchmark with saber and berserker?)
Covert ops (benchmark with assasin?)
or what?
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Unread postby NonExistence » November 19th, 2008, 4:54 am

to keep it simple, spawning craploads of swords almost instantaneously for usage, hence pwning his enemy by turning him/her into a pincushion.
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Unread postby Kid-Wolf » November 19th, 2008, 6:13 am

NonExistence wrote:to keep it simple, spawning craploads of swords almost instantaneously for usage, hence pwning his enemy by turning him/her into a pincushion.


Couldn't of said it any better myself.

In any case since Archer and Gil are in the same class the only difference is thier Master's power. So with that being said it's kind of a difference in power between Rin and any of the other Masters during the war. Although she did let Shirou go since he was rather nice to her to the point where he fell for her.
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Unread postby nanaya_shinya » November 19th, 2008, 6:24 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:
In any case since Archer and Gil are in the same class the only difference is thier Master's power. So with that being said it's kind of a difference in power between Rin and any of the other Masters during the war. Although she did let Shirou go since he was rather nice to her to the point where he fell for her.


Actually, Rin already has feelings for Shirou right from the beginning.
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Unread postby Serpentarius » November 19th, 2008, 6:25 am

He killed Berserker half a dozen times. Comparing him to Gilgamesh isn't that useful, since Archer's ability is perfectly suited to beating Gil's, and he never really gets into a straight fight on-screen, but his performance against Berserker indicates that when he's cut loose and doesn't have any other objectives to worry about, he's a beastly fighter. Even Ilya is shocked by how powerful he is.
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Unread postby Sinshlad » November 19th, 2008, 6:50 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:In any case since Archer and Gil are in the same class the only difference is thier Master's power. So with that being said it's kind of a difference in power between Rin and any of the other Masters during the war.
This is only true if you take them both as having just been summoned. Otherwise there's a lot of weirdness in determining Gil's strength. Even then I'm still iffy, there are a hell of a lot of factors in determining strength in the Fate Nasuverse.
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 19th, 2008, 6:58 am

Archer took 6 of Zerker's lives, as others have said.

Besides Gil and Saber, none of the other Servants could even scratch him.
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Unread postby samasamon » November 19th, 2008, 8:45 am

There is no the strongest servant. All servant got beat in all rout. If the strongest is the winner, then Shirou is the strongest. All servant not only have their own power, they also bind by plot created by writer.

Saber is great example. She is weakest Saber in all rout, but she win the grail by herself with support from his master. In UBW, she have new master and become stronger. She win, but she does nothing. In HF, she lose even she got unlimited supply.

If archer fought berserker in UBW rout, he at least won't lose, because this is his rout.

Gil is very strong, but he lose in all rout.
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Unread postby Raitei » November 19th, 2008, 9:35 am

^ very well said. :)
there's no "strongest servant", only "who is supposed to be the strongest but always lose because of plot device". :lol:

but.
Besides Gil and Saber, none of the other Servants could even scratch him.
actually, there MIGHT be ones who can kill him (not 12 times, but nearly), like rider (medusa), lancer (cu chulainn), lancelot, and caster (yeah, caster. medea.)
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Unread postby Ryougi07 » November 19th, 2008, 10:18 am

Berserker isn't that strong, he's just getting boosted because of his class and Illya. Although I do wonder what his performance will be if he gets summoned into a different class.
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Unread postby Tsubasa » November 19th, 2008, 10:20 am

Ryougi07 wrote:Berserker isn't that strong, he's just getting boosted because of his class and Illya. Although I do wonder what his performance will be if he gets summoned into a different class.

It's said somewhere in the game I believe his strongest class is as archer. I'm pretty sure the hydra bow would be pretty bad ass.
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Unread postby BlackTornado » November 19th, 2008, 12:49 pm

samasamon wrote:There is no the strongest servant. All servant got beat in all rout. If the strongest is the winner, then Shirou is the strongest. All servant not only have their own power, they also bind by plot created by writer.


I agree fully with that. So i said, what is archer's true strength? For example its melee combat, how would he compare with the potential of archer and berserker? That was what i meant
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Unread postby eharper256 » November 19th, 2008, 1:04 pm

Tsubasa wrote:
Ryougi07 wrote:Berserker isn't that strong, he's just getting boosted because of his class and Illya. Although I do wonder what his performance will be if he gets summoned into a different class.

It's said somewhere in the game I believe his strongest class is as archer. I'm pretty sure the hydra bow would be pretty bad ass.


Yeah, I remember that too from somewhere.

Maybe the 'Archer' that Rin summons for the version of Shirou that goes onto be Archer in that reality is him? (Since Nasu states that she summoned a different Archer there in a failed version of the Saber route) Though, no, wait, that would conflict with Ilya, so meh...

---

What artifact does Ilya use to summon Beserker, anyway? Is it ever known? Or is it just a personality summon? I mean, thats pretty spooky if it is. The whole thing with Kariya summoning Beserker in Fate/Zero makes sense since he's suffering from a terrible sense of guilt and excruciating pain (much like Lancelot). I suppose Ilya is suffering the abandonment of her dad though...

---

As for Emiya Archer, technically UBW is said to be stronger than Gate of Babylon since the swords automatically appear in his hands for use. They are still copies however, which theoretically reduces their ranks. I reckon that Hercules Beserker is probably the worst servant hence for Archer to fight, since only his strongest UBW stuff will likely penetrate God Hand. He just eventually runs dry of endurance. And he dies in HF protecting Tohsaka (from Darkcalibur, no less!)
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Unread postby spathi » November 19th, 2008, 1:17 pm

eharper256 wrote:
Tsubasa wrote:
Ryougi07 wrote:Berserker isn't that strong, he's just getting boosted because of his class and Illya. Although I do wonder what his performance will be if he gets summoned into a different class.

It's said somewhere in the game I believe his strongest class is as archer. I'm pretty sure the hydra bow would be pretty bad ass.


Yeah, I remember that too from somewhere.

Maybe the 'Archer' that Rin summons for the version of Shirou that goes onto be Archer in that reality is him? (Since Nasu states that she summoned a different Archer there in a failed version of the Saber route) Though, no, wait, that would conflict with Ilya, so meh...

---

What artifact does Ilya use to summon Beserker, anyway? Is it ever known? Or is it just a personality summon? I mean, thats pretty spooky if it is. The whole thing with Kariya summoning Beserker in Fate/Zero makes sense since he's suffering from a terrible sense of guilt and excruciating pain (much like Lancelot). I suppose Ilya is suffering the abandonment of her dad though...

---

As for Emiya Archer, technically UBW is said to be stronger than Gate of Babylon since the swords automatically appear in his hands for use. They are still copies however, which theoretically reduces their ranks. I reckon that Hercules Beserker is probably the worst servant hence for Archer to fight, since only his strongest UBW stuff will likely penetrate God Hand. He just eventually runs dry of endurance. And he dies in HF protecting Tohsaka (from Darkcalibur, no less!)


they used the rock-sword thing to summon berserker


archer managed to kill berserker 6 times without UBW and it wasn't darkcalibur which killed him
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Unread postby AlextheLazy » November 19th, 2008, 3:46 pm

spathi wrote:
eharper256 wrote:
Tsubasa wrote:[quote="Ryougi07"]Berserker isn't that strong, he's just getting boosted because of his class and Illya. Although I do wonder what his performance will be if he gets summoned into a different class.

It's said somewhere in the game I believe his strongest class is as archer. I'm pretty sure the hydra bow would be pretty bad ass.


Yeah, I remember that too from somewhere.

Maybe the 'Archer' that Rin summons for the version of Shirou that goes onto be Archer in that reality is him? (Since Nasu states that she summoned a different Archer there in a failed version of the Saber route) Though, no, wait, that would conflict with Ilya, so meh...

---

What artifact does Ilya use to summon Beserker, anyway? Is it ever known? Or is it just a personality summon? I mean, thats pretty spooky if it is. The whole thing with Kariya summoning Beserker in Fate/Zero makes sense since he's suffering from a terrible sense of guilt and excruciating pain (much like Lancelot). I suppose Ilya is suffering the abandonment of her dad though...

---

As for Emiya Archer, technically UBW is said to be stronger than Gate of Babylon since the swords automatically appear in his hands for use. They are still copies however, which theoretically reduces their ranks. I reckon that Hercules Beserker is probably the worst servant hence for Archer to fight, since only his strongest UBW stuff will likely penetrate God Hand. He just eventually runs dry of endurance. And he dies in HF protecting Tohsaka (from Darkcalibur, no less!)


they used the rock-sword thing to summon berserker


archer managed to kill berserker 6 times without UBW and it wasn't darkcalibur which killed him[/quote]

true
Sakura's shadow that killed him by S.Ding



yeah the rock sword was part of a temple thats why it can withstand blows from NPs


on a sidenote Lancelot and Gil make quite a awesome team Knight of Honor + Gate of Babylon
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Unread postby eharper256 » November 19th, 2008, 5:42 pm

AlextheLazy wrote:they used the rock-sword thing to summon berserker

archer managed to kill berserker 6 times without UBW and it wasn't darkcalibur which killed him

true Sakura's shadow that killed him by S.Ding

on a sidenote Lancelot and Gil make quite a awesome team Knight of Honor + Gate of Babylon


Oh, that was the catalyst? Hmm... well cheers for the answer.

I thought the Emiya Archer vs. Beserker fight in Fate happened off camera, didn't it? So, he could've UBW'ed, right?

Was it Sakura's shadow that killed Archer in HF? Jeez, I was sure it was Darkcaliber. Ooops; must've forgotten that.

Yeah, Lancelot vs. Gil in the first Fate/Zero novel, fighting each other was WTFPWN awesome. (thats the only one I've read, by and the by)
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Unread postby Rikh » November 19th, 2008, 9:00 pm

Serpentarius wrote:He killed Berserker half a dozen times. Comparing him to Gilgamesh isn't that useful, since Archer's ability is perfectly suited to beating Gil's, and he never really gets into a straight fight on-screen, but his performance against Berserker indicates that when he's cut loose and doesn't have any other objectives to worry about, he's a beastly fighter. Even Ilya is shocked by how powerful he is.



Although in the game its unknown what really happened

Archer in the anime knew illya (and called her by her given nickname btw...)
He did kill berserker that many times, but i am sure you can debate if he could have killed him more times

Archer has the most probability of being from an alternate fate route or close to it, so it can be assumed....
That archer could have held back on berserker
killed berserker enough times to perfectly match the amount of times his younger ego would kill projecting...
or just want berserker with enough lives to stall for time, and keep illya safe from other servants

anyways, archer wanted to protect illya


also more confusion/paradoxes/GARm's
Illya is a vessel in all the routes... does that mean she absorbed all the servants in all the routes?
Illya probably found out archers identity immediately after berserker killed him. She then attempted to fight shiro and lost
This could be why she was so willing to join up with shiro so easily and be a guide for him.

UBW she couldnt have known... her heart was pwnt by gil

which leads to the ultimate conclusion
Nasu hates Loli's

WHY!!!!
:(
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Unread postby zweiterversuch » November 19th, 2008, 9:28 pm

Rikh wrote:
Serpentarius wrote:He killed Berserker half a dozen times. Comparing him to Gilgamesh isn't that useful, since Archer's ability is perfectly suited to beating Gil's, and he never really gets into a straight fight on-screen, but his performance against Berserker indicates that when he's cut loose and doesn't have any other objectives to worry about, he's a beastly fighter. Even Ilya is shocked by how powerful he is.



Although in the game its unknown what really happened

Archer in the anime knew illya (and called her by her given nickname btw...)
He did kill berserker that many times, but i am sure you can debate if he could have killed him more times

Archer has the most probability of being from an alternate fate route or close to it, so it can be assumed....
That archer could have held back on berserker
killed berserker enough times to perfectly match the amount of times his younger ego would kill projecting...
or just want berserker with enough lives to stall for time, and keep illya safe from other servants

anyways, archer wanted to protect illya


also more confusion/paradoxes/GARm's
Illya is a vessel in all the routes... does that mean she absorbed all the servants in all the routes?
Illya probably found out archers identity immediately after berserker killed him. She then attempted to fight shiro and lost
This could be why she was so willing to join up with shiro so easily and be a guide for him.

UBW she couldnt have known... her heart was pwnt by gil

which leads to the ultimate conclusion
Nasu hates Loli's

WHY!!!!
:(



THAT, MY FRIEND, IS A HUGE LIE!!!!
NASU DOESN'T HATE LOLIS!

*Ren* cough *white ren* cough *Akira seo* cough! *Loli Altrouge* Cough!!!

NASU AND LOLIS ARE ONE AND THE SAME!!!!!

.....

but well just in case...

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Unread postby abscess » November 19th, 2008, 9:57 pm

Rikh wrote:
Archer has the most probability of being from an alternate fate route or close to it, so it can be assumed....
That archer could have held back on berserker
killed berserker enough times to perfectly match the amount of times his younger ego would kill projecting...
or just want berserker with enough lives to stall for time, and keep illya safe from other servants

anyways, archer wanted to protect illya

That doesn't seem very convincing. I don't remember if Acher ever mentioned any hint that he might know Ilya or not. I'd bet that we don't get any hint. My guess is that he did get owned in that fight and didn't let a fair amount of lives alone in order to let Shirou do his job. He is, after all, a servant, his purpose is to win the war along with his master; not letting anyone else do it, much less Shirou, whom he hated.

Let's say that he did remember Ilya (I don't know, since I can't remember), he probably wasn't interested in killing Ilya or harming her in any way, but I doubt he was protecting her from other attacks. I think that he probably wanted to beat Berserker to let Tohsaka win and end the war as soon as possible, but got owned in the process.

Rikh wrote:also more confusion/paradoxes/GARm's
Illya is a vessel in all the routes... does that mean she absorbed all the servants in all the routes?
Illya probably found out archers identity immediately after berserker killed him. She then attempted to fight shiro and lost
This could be why she was so willing to join up with shiro so easily and be a guide for him.

UBW she couldnt have known... her heart was pwnt by gil

Well, yeah, she does eat Archer's soul in Fate route and HF, but I doubt that, at the time of death (or whatever it is with servants), the info the soul carries (personality, memories, etc.) is left. Wasn't it said somewhere that the soul of the servant is converted into energy or something like that?

zweiterversuch wrote:
Rikh wrote:which leads to the ultimate conclusion
Nasu hates Loli's

WHY!!!!
:(



THAT, MY FRIEND, IS A HUGE LIE!!!!
NASU DOESN'T HATE LOLIS!

*Ren* cough *white ren* cough *Akira seo* cough! *Loli Altrouge* Cough!!!

NASU AND LOLIS ARE ONE AND THE SAME!!!!!

Well.... I wouldn't say that nasu = lolis... that would be kind of... pertaining to a freak show, I'm afraid... At any rate, yes, Nasu seems to be way to fond of lolis... Just check all of his nasuverse's works, KnK got Azaka, Tsukihime got two Lens and Miyako, Fate got Ilya and he wanted to make Caster into a loli.... Caster into a loli! what's wrong with him!!!???

And... I wouldn't count Akira as a loli, I don't think she goes in that category.... *cough*...... Please, tell me she isn't in that category!!!
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Unread postby Mkilbride » November 19th, 2008, 10:09 pm

She doesn't go into that, she was like 16! 16! To old to be a loli.
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