True power of Archer (spoilers)

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s4itox
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Unread post by s4itox » November 21st, 2008, 7:02 am

Raitei wrote:oh yeah? then why is gob also ranked e-a++ even though there's (at least) 1 ex in it?
Some of Gil's stats degraded or upgraded after being tainted by the Holy Grail. Isn't it possible that GoB is actually E ~ EX (like stated in his Stat window) but was downgraded to E ~ A++ as indicated by Noble Phantasm list?
Perhaps it's also indicated by average level? Perhaps the level of E-ranked weapons were enough to cause it to drop to the E bracket, but not enough EX weapons were there for an EX bracket so it went to A++?
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Unread post by Raitei » November 21st, 2008, 7:51 am

Some of Gil's stats degraded or upgraded after being tainted by the Holy Grail. Isn't it possible that GoB is actually E ~ EX (like stated in his Stat window) but was downgraded to E ~ A++ as indicated by Noble Phantasm list?
wtf are you talking about? saber's been corrupted yet her excalibur (or black excalibur) still ranked a++. and since when tainting by the grail could mess with a servant other than having a real body and twisted mind?
Perhaps it's also indicated by average level? Perhaps the level of E-ranked weapons were enough to cause it to drop to the E bracket, but not enough EX weapons were there for an EX bracket so it went to A++?
don't think so. when you say "a to z" (or a ~ z, whichever term you prefer), what comes to your mind other than "ranging from a to z"? the average is "a" and "z"? if so, oxford and cambridge might wanna add something into their latest dictionary.
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Inverted
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Unread post by Inverted » November 21st, 2008, 8:38 am

Nasu's Comments
fuyuki wiki wrote:Saber vs Archer
Nasu-san CHECK! (no need to take into considering the editor ones so)
The class of the representatives of close-range and long-range combat. Saber, who would take her sword in any condition whatsoever and Archer who would fight using a strategy of victory. The highlight won't just be the different battle styles, but the difference between their personalities.
However, even with UBW, it's questionable whether he could hold Saber back in single combat. One definite hit from sniping and one absolute blast of death from her Holy Sword. It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand.

Rider vs. Lancer
Nasu-san CHECK!
The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum output, Lancer will win. While Rider has several different types of Noble Phantasms, Lancer also has protective ability from rune sorcery, hence counter measures from her mystic eyes. Against an expert monster exterminator like Lancer, one who has a monster alignment such as Rider might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?

Archer vs. Assassin
Nasu-san CHECK!
If it's a straight out death match, then Archer will win. But Assassin is an oddity that fights under different battle conditions from the other Servants. While many Servants are offensive, Assassin is defensive. At a Servant-killing battlefield like Ryuudouji and with Caster's anti-sorcery defensive barrier, sorcery and Noble Phantasm power is decreased significantly. As a result, if it's not a powerful Noble Phantasm, then he won't take a fatal wound. Which means that the battle between the two is clearly swordsmanship. With Archer having his sniping sealed off to him due to the terrain effect, could Archer actually lose...?

Archer vs Rider
Nasu-san CHECK!
If you think about it, Archer will win, but at long range, Rider would be? Just like that question, their compatibility is not very good. Since both aren't fixated on the methods of winning, they'd definitely both choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare.
Even if Archer takes out a Saber-class holy sword, he doesn't have enough Prana to draw on to maximize it, so it'd be hard to for him to attack Bellerophon. What determines victory or defeat is whether Aias on its own would be enough to block Bellerophon perhaps...?

Assassin vs True Assassin
Nasu-san CHECK!
If it's just Servant vs Servant, then without complaint, True Assassin would have the better chance of victory. Right, Kojirou doesn't have any means of breaking through Zabaniya. But there's more to it. The problem of Zabaniya is that it's not immediate death. If a normal heart gets destroyed by it, then the person dies immediately but the opponents are Servants. And especially against Kojirou, who has a strong spirit alignment, even if his heart is destroyed he still will have some fighting power left in him. Right in the interval after TA uses his Noble Phantasm, Assassin could close the gap and use Tsubame Gaeshi. Which means....it would be a draw since both of them would end up dead...?

Kuzuki vs Caster
Nasu-san CHECK!
Welcome to the beginning of the unorthodox rumble series! The end of the ugly battle of the married couple.....yeah well, just as the adage goes about the loser being the one who falls for the other first, it'd end with Caster being the cause of her own defeat no matter what! You can do it, wakaokusama! ....would be the punchline I started off with, but if both were really serious it wouldn't even be a "fight". Kuzuki, who'd kill the opponent instantly before being noticed, and Caster, who has overwhelming firepower to annihilate the enemy with once the battle starts. Basically, whoever gets the first hit wins without question, would be the "conditional battle".

Rin vs Kotomine
Nasu-san CHECK!
Ah. Rin has the better specs, but 80% of the time, Kotomine would win. It's not easy for humans to conquer trauma printed into them and what this fraud of a priest excels at is opening up the trauma of the enemy.
Since Rin has the goof-up girl trait, she has a lot of traumatic experiences, and having these poked at would make her unable to take advantage of her true potential.... Of course, even if they didn't know each other, Rin would still have a hard time. The executor side of Kotomine, a combat expert with over 10 years of experiences in killing magi, would be the counter of Rin's talents.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 21st, 2008, 9:09 am

pretty much the same as what I said.
► Show Spoiler
nuff said.
► Show Spoiler
let me ask this first : what will happen if archer trace and shoots the bp from afar like the bridge sequence in f/ha?
► Show Spoiler
definitely not. how could one possibly block an a+ when he had such hard time blocking b+?
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by spathi » November 21st, 2008, 9:58 am

maybe the reason Aius didn't block Gae Bolg was beacause the purpose of Gae Bolg was along the lines of "unstoppable, unescapable homing missile of death"

while Belephron had "summon magic horse, ram it into opponent"

I could be wrong but those are just my thoughts

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Unread post by Zensunni » November 21st, 2008, 10:00 am

Raitei wrote:oh yeah? then why is gob also ranked e-a++ even though there's (at least) 1 ex in it?
EA has it's own entry in the noble phantasms slide, so it's not treated as part of GoB. Makes sense that he wouldn't just launch his greatest treasures out of the gate randomly but actually wield them.

UBW going up to a++ is a bit strange since we don't know of any EX rank weapon it could copy, yes. Maybe Avalon. Or maybe it refers to Broken Phantasm which can add back the lost rank.

Aius is a huge plothole because of how Shirou uses it in HF. To me it seemed like blocking a bazooka shot with a pot lid, even if he blocked it he should have been owned by the explosion. Yet the shield completely absorbs excalibur even though in UBW it crumbled against a B+ thrown spear. I really can't think of an explanation for that..

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Unread post by Serpentarius » November 21st, 2008, 11:16 am

Using Aius against Excalibur makes perfect sense. Excalibur is basically just a huge burst of magical energy, so it can be considered a standard projectile attack. Alone, a four-leafed one would still lose due to Excalibur's sheer power, but since it was just used to boost Rider's defenses while using Bellerophon, it managed to tip the balance. Ranged Gae Bolg is one of those conceptual weapons that has piercing defenses as its defining attribute, so it makes sense that even a perfect shield against ranged attacks wouldn't be able to block it completely.

Using Aius against Bellerophon wouldn't be as effective, I think. Bellerophon isn't a ranged attack in the first place.

As to HF Shirou beating Saber, of course he wouldn't have a chance if Saber used Excalibur, and the strategy of spamming Overedge against her was really only possible due to her lowered agility. I think that the reason that Saber used Excalibur on Rider but not on Shirou is a bit more complex. If she held back against a fully powered Rider, she almost certainly would've lost anyway, so she had to use Excalibur to fulfill her mission. When fighting against Shirou alone, however, note that it's pretty obvious that she wants Shirou to beat her. She didn't hold back, of course - that's something that Saber would never do. Once Saber has chosen to fight, she's going to fight with everything she has. However, when fighting against Shirou alone, she was able to rationalize to herself that the only method that would bring her certain victory, which would entail using Excalibur, might also collapse the cavern, which wouldn't be the most desired outcome. Even a fully powered Archer or Shirou wouldn't have a chance against Saber unless her weaknesses were changed to better match their abilities (as they are when Saber gets corrupted) and Saber was also restricted by sentiment.

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Unread post by s4itox » November 21st, 2008, 11:19 am

wtf are you talking about? saber's been corrupted yet her excalibur (or black excalibur) still ranked a++. and since when tainting by the grail could mess with a servant other than having a real body and twisted mind?
Since when couldn't it? Aren't you being JUST the slightest bit narrow-minded in assuming that it doesn't do anything that's not explicitly mentioned? I'd previously thought, as Zen pointed out too, that it could be simply because Ea was classed differently from GoB but my reasoning was that since Gil can fire any random thing from GoB, he can also choose what he pulls out and so could pull out Ea and not have his most prized possession randomly fired.
Zensunni wrote: Aius is a huge plothole because of how Shirou uses it in HF. To me it seemed like blocking a bazooka shot with a pot lid, even if he blocked it he should have been owned by the explosion. Yet the shield completely absorbs excalibur even though in UBW it crumbled against a B+ thrown spear. I really can't think of an explanation for that..

The shield doesn't completely absorb Darkscalibur. It was Darkscalibur vs 4-layer Rho Aius and Bellerophon, and it ended barely as a stalemate with Shirou, Dark Saber and Rider all being momentarily incapacitated.
吾は面影糸を巣と張る蜘蛛。――ようこそこのすばらしき惨殺空間へ。
I am the spider that spins this web. ――Welcome, to the site of this magnificent slaughter.

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 21st, 2008, 11:25 am

spathi wrote:maybe the reason Aius didn't block Gae Bolg was beacause the purpose of Gae Bolg was along the lines of "unstoppable, unescapable homing missile of death"

while Belephron had "summon magic horse, ram it into opponent"
that's an interesting theory, but since "lance of sure hit" is just but a title, like "sword of promised victory". let's compare it to impaling barbed death : striking death flight emphasizes raw power over accuracy, making it less focused. probably like comparing a sniper rifle (impaling barbed death) and an rpg (striking death flight). and as for the "always strikes no matter how many times it's dodged", well, dodge != block.

so we can safely draw an assumption that for piercing through rho aias' defense, bellerophon would have done it much more easily than gae bolg.
Zensunni wrote:EA has it's own entry in the noble phantasms slide, so it's not treated as part of GoB. Makes sense that he wouldn't just launch his greatest treasures out of the gate randomly but actually wield them.

UBW going up to a++ is a bit strange since we don't know of any EX rank weapon it could copy, yes. Maybe Avalon. Or maybe it refers to Broken Phantasm which can add back the lost rank.
oh yeah. good point; I didn't think about that possibility. but suppose ea is stored inside gob, wouldn't it still be counted as a part of gob?

also, broken phantasm is out of comparison from ubw (imo) since archer would have to trace it first and then overload it with mana. the ubw rank most probably refers to the original rank of the weapons (after being degraded 1 rank).
Zensunni wrote:Aius is a huge plothole because of how Shirou uses it in HF. To me it seemed like blocking a bazooka shot with a pot lid, even if he blocked it he should have been owned by the explosion. Yet the shield completely absorbs excalibur even though in UBW it crumbled against a B+ thrown spear. I really can't think of an explanation for that..
and not to mention he blocked it with only 4 layers...
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by Kansho » November 21st, 2008, 11:47 am

If you all people sum up the defense of Rho Aias and Bellerephon's one... it makes MUCH sense. Because that's why they did.

Excalibur deals 150. Parting of Rho Aias as B+, it blocks 80. Then Bellerephon, as said in the status page increases +100 of Armor Class...

100 + 80 = 180 > 150. Bellerephon and Aias wins. The thing is how apply the 4 layers thing... but judging for the scene we can think that the shield absorbed Excalibur using the four layers, so maybe was a 150 vs. 150 or something like that. Well, be really didn't know how to apply Bellerephon additional AC as well, but what we know it's that Aias + Bellerephon can win against Excalibur. That's not a plothole at all.

Another way to see it it's that Rho Aias absorbed enough damage to make Rider win. It's a shield after all, that's it's role, and makes a lot of sense, as only needed to absorb 51, or even less (seeing at the additional AC thing) to give victory to Bellerephon.

And the real reason why Aias can't stand against Gae Bolg it's because Gae Bolg is the only lance that can surpass Aias, probably not for strength, but for nature. And... explosion in Excalibur? Read the description of the NP... because it's not really a blast or a beam.
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Unread post by Raitei » November 21st, 2008, 12:57 pm

s4itox wrote:Since when couldn't it? Aren't you being JUST the slightest bit narrow-minded in assuming that it doesn't do anything that's not explicitly mentioned?
since when it couldn't, you say? since f/sn was written, I say. I'll point this out : you are the one making up things. even before corrupted by the grail, gil's status was like that with kotomine as his master. there's not even a slightest change in np nor raw servant status.

and why black saber has different status? because of master change. nuff said.

I'll ask this specifically to kansho (yeah, since he's the one who can read japanese here I know of) : were there any change in gilgamesh's np status prior and after the corruption by the grail?
I'd previously thought, as Zen pointed out too, that it could be simply because Ea was classed differently from GoB but my reasoning was that since Gil can fire any random thing from GoB, he can also choose what he pulls out and so could pull out Ea and not have his most prized possession randomly fired.
I have pointed my reasoning in the post above.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by samasamon » November 21st, 2008, 1:07 pm

Gae Bolg hit archer because of its attribute "always seek the heart even the use die". "Lance of sure hit" is different from "Sword of Promise Victory".

In all rout (should be before all rout start), Lancer use Gae Bolg. I can't remember correctly, but look like he attack Saber's leg or something and the lance change it position and seek the heart. She avoid it (but take some damage) with luck one of method to avoid Gae Bolg.
In UBW, Lancer throw Gae Bolg, but stop by Aius. It hit archer, but can't kill him. This is another method to avoid Gae Bolg.
It said in HF, there is three way to avoid death from Gae Bolg
- Avoid with luck.
- Use defensive armament the exceed Gae Bolg mana.
- Prevent Lancer to use it.
► Show Spoiler
A+A+X > A+A+A
X>A

According to A=50, B=40, C=30, D=20, E=10
X>50
X=A++
X=A+
X=B++
X=B+
X=C++
X=C+
X=D++

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Unread post by Kansho » November 21st, 2008, 1:12 pm

Raitei wrote:Were there any change in gilgamesh's np status prior and after the corruption by the grail?.
Err... not. You only need to see Fate/Zero status pages to see that.
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Unread post by Raitei » November 21st, 2008, 1:19 pm

samasamon wrote:Gae Bolg hit archer because of its attribute "always seek the heart even the use die". "Lance of sure hit" is different from "Sword of Promise Victory".

In all rout (should be before all rout start), Lancer use Gae Bolg. I can't remember correctly, but look like he attack Saber's leg or something and the lance change it position and seek the heart. She avoid it (but take some damage) with luck one of method to avoid Gae Bolg.
In UBW, Lancer throw Gae Bolg, but stop by Aius. It hit archer, but can't kill him. This is another method to avoid Gae Bolg.
It said in HF, there is three way to avoid death from Gae Bolg
- Avoid with luck.
- Use defensive armament the exceed Gae Bolg mana.
- Prevent Lancer to use it.
► Show Spoiler
that's impaling barbed death. we're talking about striking death flight here.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by samasamon » November 21st, 2008, 4:36 pm

Last edited by samasamon on June 7th, 2009, 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Geburah san » November 21st, 2008, 6:57 pm

Plus if remember well, Lancer can empower his lance with runic magic increasing its rank by 1, so a B+ becomes an A+. And in his atack against Archer he used all his might to throw it so its obvious its powered with runes too.

In the Samasamon?s spoiler is explained too that it cant be dodged or blocked so it must retain part of its unavoidable status even if its weakened.
Probably the most lethal single target weapon of Fate since is the hardest to defend against (not many servants have Aius or similar protections and even having great luck Gae Bolg will most probably still hit and weaken even if Lancer`s oponents get past his/her salvation roll as Saber did)

Assasin?s Tsubame Gaeshi is nasty too but need special conditions to perform such as plain ground and/or not bent weapons

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Unread post by Raitei » November 22nd, 2008, 1:02 am

samasamon wrote:"emphasize" It's not mean Gae Bolg will lose its attribute.

This is throw version against Archer
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
in game explanations (read = descriptions) are just always there for dramatic effect.
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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Unread post by spathi » November 22nd, 2008, 8:29 am

since Gae Bolg was loaded with magical energy then presumably that was what got through Aius but I think the fact remains it still hits the target although there were not enough juice to kill him

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Unread post by samasamon » November 22nd, 2008, 1:28 pm

So, you trust wiki more than in game description. That's fine.

According to A=50 B=40 etc.

Bell + Aius - D Ex = 10% Bell
(100+60)-150 = 10

4 layer Aius = 60
7 Layer Aius = 105

Even Lancer use his rune magic, A+ rank NP power = 100. It can't penetrate Aius and damage archer.

That's why IMO Gae Bolg hit Archer because of its attribute.

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Unread post by Raitei » November 22nd, 2008, 1:48 pm

samasamon wrote:
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

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