True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 3:04 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Nine Lives is a high level NP, of course it can penetrate God hand. We are talking about the paradox that a normal attack that is weaker than a NP in terms of destructive power can actually damage Berserker, while the NP cannot.
the reasoning behind Hercules losing to it is most likely due to its high speed attacks. Nine Live Blade Works was created for the purpose of killing Berserker multiple times within one second... but that honestly has nothing to really do with what you said

Anything rank B can damage berserker in some way

if you had rank D strength, but a Rank A wet noodle as a weapon, then by all means, that wet noodle has the ability to harm berserker (good luck though..)

if you had rank B strength, and a rank C NP... berserker would be harmed, but your weapon would most likely be destroyed as well (unless its famous for being unbreakable... then that's just where confusion sets in)

honestly its rather simple to understand. As long as whatever attacks berserker has at least 1 B rank trait, it can damage him... at least until god hand prevents further damage from the next attack

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 14th, 2009, 3:18 am

Values of NP (here, it means the specific attack launched when invoking the NP's true name), seem to stand independent of the character's status. So if you fire a blast of Excalibur, that is a A++ NP attack. If you swing the sword, that is a rank B (or maybe higher) normal attack.

The Rider class has been known to take advantage of this in the Grail Wars. Status-wise, they do not match the likes of Sabre, but they usually employ extraordinary NPs to compensate for it.

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 6:29 am

Let's suppose for a second that a normal attack could in fact harm berserker. If it took one life off, it probably we be inconsequential. The reasoning being that God Hand can actually adapt to attacks. In other words the attack would be ineffective a second time.
fuyukiwiki wrote:God Hand - The Twelve Trials
The normal ability is canceling any damage of B or below. Noble Phantasm ability is an extra 11 lives (yes 11 lives, not 12, meaning he has to be killed a total of twelve times). It's effectively an armor coating the body. The reason why Berserker looks grey is because of the God Hand. A blessing or rather a curse the gods gave to Hercules (hence, it isn't the materialized interpretation of his trials, it's an actual gift bestowed by the gods). Ever since Hercules gained this, no one has been able to do any damage to him. Confirmed that God Hand will actually develop resistance to damage taken once. The game hints that the lives actually regenerate. Seriously. Also see Conceptual Armament entry on God Hand.
Rank: B
Type: Anti-personnel
Max AOE: 1 unit
Therefore you are going to have problems. Then it becomes "So i hit him with the rock and took a life. Will he adapt to my strength or can I take a life off with a tree branch?"

Also

fuyukiwiki wrote:# When a rank is marked with a +, it means that just for one moment, it is able to temporarily increase its damage two-fold, overcoming even a higher ranked weapon. Only a few heroes have + stats. Those with ++ are uber. Those with +++ are considered to be in a class of their own.
# Weapons or stats with an EX rank do not fall under these parameter rules. Things that can no longer be categorized by the numbers of the above scale as they lie beyond them.
# High thaumaturgy is considered to be at a rank of A. A+ spells are considered to be close to magic.
# A C rank Noble Phantasm is the equivalent of an A rank or A+ normal attack (STR).
# Ea's maximum damage is 4000, but with backup items in Gilgamesh's vault, damage can be increased even further.
# Since even an E rank skill has positive effects, I'd say it's safe to assume that anything with a rank is going to be better than average.
# A++ and EX level for Noble Phantasms are said to be close to Divine Spirit level attacks.
That answer your questions?

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Unread post by Vhailor » January 14th, 2009, 12:06 pm

Equivalent doesn't mean a NP rank C is also a ranked A normal attack. That just means what it is said : equivalent. The effect is similar but they work on a totally different ladder so to God Hand, it is not enough.

Exemple : Nasu said Lancer will have to enhance his NP with runes to damage God Hand and Gae Bolg is already ranked B

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Unread post by Inverted » January 14th, 2009, 2:11 pm

That is 'cause you need to use B+ attack to penetrate God hand.

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 3:18 pm

Vhailor wrote:Equivalent doesn't mean a NP rank C is also a ranked A normal attack. That just means what it is said : equivalent. The effect is similar but they work on a totally different ladder so to God Hand, it is not enough.

Exemple : Nasu said Lancer will have to enhance his NP with runes to damage God Hand and Gae Bolg is already ranked B
It means that even if you have strength of A it will not be enough. Berserkers god hand is ranked against other Noble Phantasms. And the reason that Nasu said Lancer would use runes is most likely because he can take extra lives off.

Also read this: http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/normalat ... ntasms.htm

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Unread post by Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 11:13 pm

Xanathos wrote:
Vhailor wrote:Equivalent doesn't mean a NP rank C is also a ranked A normal attack. That just means what it is said : equivalent. The effect is similar but they work on a totally different ladder so to God Hand, it is not enough.

Exemple : Nasu said Lancer will have to enhance his NP with runes to damage God Hand and Gae Bolg is already ranked B
It means that even if you have strength of A it will not be enough. Berserkers god hand is ranked against other Noble Phantasms. And the reason that Nasu said Lancer would use runes is most likely because he can take extra lives off.

Also read this: http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/normalat ... ntasms.htm
a little tired to fully understand what you wrote honestly... ill wake up later

but what your saying is that a NP the rank of A, if used by a person with rank D-F strength, wont penetrate godhand?

Shiro chopped off hercs arm :| his str is around d- to F, lol...

oh wait... you didnt state anything like that... nvm, lol

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 11:37 pm

Rikh wrote:
Xanathos wrote:
Vhailor wrote:Equivalent doesn't mean a NP rank C is also a ranked A normal attack. That just means what it is said : equivalent. The effect is similar but they work on a totally different ladder so to God Hand, it is not enough.

Exemple : Nasu said Lancer will have to enhance his NP with runes to damage God Hand and Gae Bolg is already ranked B
It means that even if you have strength of A it will not be enough. Berserkers god hand is ranked against other Noble Phantasms. And the reason that Nasu said Lancer would use runes is most likely because he can take extra lives off.

Also read this: http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/normalat ... ntasms.htm
a little tired to fully understand what you wrote honestly... ill wake up later

but what your saying is that a NP the rank of A, if used by a person with rank D-F strength, wont penetrate godhand?

Shiro chopped off hercs arm :| his str is around d- to F, lol...

oh wait... you didnt state anything like that... nvm, lol
When he chopped of his arm, you are talking about nine lives blade works correct? Shirou got a strength upgrade when using the technique.

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Unread post by Qaynan » January 14th, 2009, 11:55 pm

Xanathos wrote: When he chopped of his arm, you are talking about nine lives blade works correct? Shirou got a strength upgrade when using the technique.
► Show Spoiler

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 15th, 2009, 3:02 am

Qaynan wrote:
Xanathos wrote: When he chopped of his arm, you are talking about nine lives blade works correct? Shirou got a strength upgrade when using the technique.
► Show Spoiler
....

Whoops. I thought he was talking about a different part. That part has to do with the sword I suppose. I wonder though. Shirou inherits the blades memory so to speak, so he draws on the skills on the user of the blade. This is how he learned NLBW. In that instance he gained the strength to preform NLBW. So could it be he receives the strength of the user?

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Unread post by Kikuchi » January 15th, 2009, 3:19 am

Xanathos wrote:
Qaynan wrote:
Xanathos wrote: When he chopped of his arm, you are talking about nine lives blade works correct? Shirou got a strength upgrade when using the technique.
► Show Spoiler
....

Whoops. I thought he was talking about a different part. That part has to do with the sword I suppose. I wonder though. Shirou inherits the blades memory so to speak, so he draws on the skills on the user of the blade. This is how he learned NLBW. In that instance he gained the strength to preform NLBW. So could it be he receives the strength of the user?
Saber's strength was C under Shirou... :roll: She mainly relies on Prana Burst to match Berserker's brute strength rather than her own strength...

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 15th, 2009, 4:17 am

Prana Burst? That is getting a bit too specific. Utilizing Sabre's swordsmanship and status, maybe. Using prana burst? Not likely. We are not talking HF Shirou with GARm, or UBW with Rin buff. Fate Shirou do not have sufficient mana to use such a skill. Projection grants you the weapon and associated skills, but using them still takes a toll on mana.

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Unread post by Kikuchi » January 15th, 2009, 5:10 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Prana Burst? That is getting a bit too specific. Utilizing Sabre's swordsmanship and status, maybe. Using prana burst? Not likely. We are not talking HF Shirou with GARm, or UBW with Rin buff. Fate Shirou do not have sufficient mana to use such a skill. Projection grants you the weapon and associated skills, but using them still takes a toll on mana.
Ahm, I'm just pointing out that copying Saber's strength will not work as well as you'd hoped. Saber can match (and hurt) Berserker because she uses Prana Burst. I'm not saying Shirou should be able to utilize Saber's Prana Burst, that's why the theory "Rank B+ NP with STR C can hurt Berserker" still works.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 15th, 2009, 6:11 am

What you need to remember is that, Caliburn carries an imprint of Sabre, her power, her skills, her techniques, but you DO NOT KNOW if the current Sabre has the identical status as when she made her imprints on Caliburn. We know as a fact that Sabre's status fluctuates significantly under different Masters, and we know nothing of the parameters of her when she was alive (the text of Fate hints that the Grail tampers with the Heroic Spirits to make them easier to summon/materialize).
Given the above information, it may even be possible that Caliburn recorded Sabre's STR as A+, granting Shirou A+ STR, sufficient to pierce God Hand.

There are too many unknowns here, that is why new theories need to be backed up with solid and convincing evidence.
Last edited by Keeper of Gil's Vault on January 15th, 2009, 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by spathi » January 15th, 2009, 6:15 am

I actually think Shirou projected the original Caliburn

not the "for display only" version of it

you know the one that broke and is the "father" of eksukalibaa

thats the only reason I accepted that stupid scenario

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 15th, 2009, 6:24 am

Shirou never projects "for display only". His ability allows him to project things so so so similar to the original, they sometimes even confuse the World itself. It was mentioned in the text that the kettles he projected just stayed there in the shed without a sign of diminishing. The quality may drop if he is pressured or rushed.

Also, there is the "global rank down" of everything he projects.

So there is no way he projected the original, because we know Kiritsugu stuck Avalon in him, not Caliburn. He got the blueprint from Sabre's memories.

Memory (already has diminished accuracy) + Shirou's Projection skill (a little bit of diminished accuracy) + Under the threat of being killed by Berzerker (rushing to complete the projection, thus diminishing quality further) = the Caliburn you saw

It is already a miracle that it lasted as long as it did. It is impossible that it is the original Caliburn.

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Unread post by spathi » January 15th, 2009, 6:40 am

Umm you just misinterpreted what I said

I'll try and clarify them

1. I meant Caliburn, not his projections, something in the status screen should mutter about caliburn being crappy or something

2. Avalon?? what? Remember Caliburn broke when King Arthur did something bad? I meant he projected THAT Caliburn, as far as I know Excalibur is based on Caliburn's full power so thats why I meant it was the "father" of Excalibur

(I'm not really familiar with history so #2 could be horribly wrong :oops: )

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 15th, 2009, 6:45 am

spathi wrote:Umm you just misinterpreted what I said

I'll try and clarify them

1. I meant Caliburn, not his projections, something in the status screen should mutter about caliburn being crappy or something

2. Avalon?? what? Remember Caliburn broke when King Arthur did something bad? I meant he projected THAT Caliburn, as far as I know Excalibur is based on Caliburn's full power so thats why I meant it was the "father" of Excalibur

(I'm not really familiar with history so #2 could be horribly wrong :oops: )

There is only one Caliburn. Excalibur was not based on Caliburn's power. Caliburn was created as a sign of status. Excalibur was forged by the lady of the lake, a gift from he planet. They are completely seperate.

On a separate note, since excalibur was forged by nature, does that mean Arc can create it?

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Unread post by abscess » January 15th, 2009, 7:57 am

I doubt Arc can create any weapon. So the answer would most likely be a simple no.
I have a question though, Are Excalibur and Arc of the same nature? I mean, the question sounds really stupid, I know, but they both have a relation to the Earth, the word was created by it and Arc is backed by it. Perhaps they have something in common that I've missed.... dunno if I'm making any sense...
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Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 15th, 2009, 10:32 am

abscess wrote:I doubt Arc can create any weapon. So the answer would most likely be a simple no.
I have a question though, Are Excalibur and Arc of the same nature? I mean, the question sounds really stupid, I know, but they both have a relation to the Earth, the word was created by it and Arc is backed by it. Perhaps they have something in common that I've missed.... dunno if I'm making any sense...
Arc has become the bone of her sword

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