True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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BlackTornado
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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 18th, 2008, 4:41 am

i am thinking that the strength parameter determines how much damage you deal when you attack normally, ie with ur fist, sword, axe, slipper, etc. So whether your normal attacks go through god hand is determined by your strength. When you use your NP (ie activate it by saying its name) however, whether that goes through depends on the rank of the np.

After all a very good sword still cannot do much in the hands of a baby, when a mere stick can kill in the hands of a pro.
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samasamon
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Unread post by samasamon » December 18th, 2008, 9:01 am

To make it clear.

If
1. someone (i.e. Rin's Saber) has rank A str, he can harm zerker with rank C weapon or not?
2. someone has rank C str, he can harm zerker with rank C weapon or not?
3. someone has rank C str, he can harm zerker with rank A weapon or not?

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » December 18th, 2008, 9:08 am

► Show Spoiler
so,
1. yes
2. no
3. most likely yes.
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 18th, 2008, 7:57 pm

God Hand reminds me of the borg ^^;; After one or two hits they grow resistance to that weapon lol
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Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » December 18th, 2008, 10:53 pm

Raitei wrote:
► Show Spoiler
so,
1. yes
2. no
3. most likely yes.
disagree =)

On number 1, if a person with a rank A strength attack's with a rank C weapon, the rank c weapon will be destroyed on berserkers skin =P
rank A attack and godhand are too strong for the rank c sword to stand
or itil damage berserker while ruining the sword..

Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » December 18th, 2008, 11:55 pm

Rikh wrote:disagree =)

On number 1, if a person with a rank A strength attack's with a rank C weapon, the rank c weapon will be destroyed on berserkers skin =P
rank A attack and godhand are too strong for the rank c sword to stand
or itil damage berserker while ruining the sword..
I didn't mention about the condition of the sword after the blow. the point is, it can damage god hand. whether the weapon survives the clash or not, it's an entirely different matter. :P
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Keeper of Gil's Vault
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 19th, 2008, 5:56 am

Raitei wrote:
Rikh wrote:disagree =)

On number 1, if a person with a rank A strength attack's with a rank C weapon, the rank c weapon will be destroyed on berserkers skin =P
rank A attack and godhand are too strong for the rank c sword to stand
or itil damage berserker while ruining the sword..
I didn't mention about the condition of the sword after the blow. the point is, it can damage god hand. whether the weapon survives the clash or not, it's an entirely different matter. :P
Finally the point is getting through.
To drive it home:

Scenario 1: Rank C weapon being shot out of Gate of Babylon.
Attack = rank C weapon
This will fail to breach God Hand.

Scenario 2: Rank C weapon being swung by a Servant with rank A strength
Attack = rank C weapon + rank A strength = ?
The outcome is unknown, because we don't know how a status like strength translates into an attack. However, there is at least a chance that a rank C weapon enhanced by rank A strength can lead to a rank B+ attack.

Also, the rank of Noble Phantasm may potentially be different from the rank of the actual weapon. We know Excalibur blast is rank A++, but the actual sword itself, as a weapon and an artifact, may not be rank A++. If every swing of Sabre is rank A++, then Assassin's sword would not just be "bent" after a parry. Therefore, the Noble Phantasm screen may be a poor guide to the rank of the weapon.

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Unread post by DarkEyes » December 26th, 2008, 7:50 pm

summing it up:
archer can duplicate swords almost perfectly (they lose 1 rank), read the data of said swords and therefore gain efficiency with said swords, enhance swords, make swords into bombs, his aim is rly good and he has an awesome technique for his twin daggers... also he can plan rly well due to the minds eyes skill and see very well cuz of the clairvoyance skill 8)

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Unread post by BlackTornado » January 2nd, 2009, 10:54 am

I dunno why, when i read ur post i wanna replace the swords and daggers with the following:
DarkEyes wrote:summing it up:
archer can duplicate WANGS almost perfectly (they lose 1 rank), read the data of said WANGS and therefore gain efficiency with said WANGS, enhance WANGS, make WANGS into bombs, his aim is rly good and he has an awesome technique for his twin WANGS... also he can plan rly well due to the minds eyes skill and see very well cuz of the clairvoyance skill 8)
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 2nd, 2009, 10:05 pm

I cast enhance damage on Ban Hammer lvl 1.

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Unread post by Rikh » January 2nd, 2009, 11:59 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:I cast enhance damage on Ban Hammer lvl 1.
Archer can trace an A+ variant of the original EX ranked Ban Hammer

with your enhance skill, it is now of EX rank again! congrats!

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Unread post by Qaynan » January 9th, 2009, 2:27 am

Shikiller wrote:Dark Saber uses a full power excaliblast against Berserker and it doesn't take all of his lifes.
Shirou uses a "normal" attack with traced Berserker's sword and kills him once.
God Hand nullifies any attack that is ranked B or lower. That means it blocks physical attacks rank B or lower, magical attacks rank B or lower, and Noble Phantasms rank B or lower. If a C rank Noble Phantasm deals the same damage as an A rank physical attack, it is NOT an A rank attack in its own right, and so God Hand will block it.

Just wanted to let this clear.
Although I think you guys reached a common agreement on this subject... so this pointless now in a way.
But what he said IS right. It is mentioned somewhere in the fate route if I remember (I think where you can ask her opinion about the servants they faced... you'd have the choice between Archer, Berserker, and Lancer).
Shirou notes that a noble phantasm of rank C should equal around a rank A normal attack, so it would probably break thought God Hand. But Saber replies that God Hand is much more complex than that. And that only a noble phantasm of rank A should be able to break through it.
Except we come here with the "Gae Bolg Paradox" right? But Gae Bolg is a reversal of cause and effect so suppose that it wouldn't matter that God Hand can block the hit... since the hit is unblockable and never misses. It should IMHO kill Berserker once.


Back on the subject of Archer's strength... One needs to remember that being who he is... he already is at a disadvantage simply by that. His myth is absolutely unknown. So at the opposite of Saber who's incredibly famous and gets a boost from that he gets NONE.
I thought I'd point that, since I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

I also want to add that plot devices and stuff like that really make rating and comparing the power of the servants mostly impossible. I mean seriously... If Caliburn can kill Berserker 6 times in one hit... Archer should have just spammed... or at least used once no? And what does it even mean to kill someone 6times in one blow?!!? that's not even a possible concept... But whatever... Just read and enjoy!

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 12th, 2009, 5:28 am

...Saber replies that God Hand is much more complex than that. And that only a noble phantasm of rank A should be able to break through it.
I remember I selected Archer, which gave me the spiel about Archer potentially knowing Sabre... Did anyone else remember seeing God Hand can only be broken through by NP?

About Gae Bolg's heart-piercing.
If a defensive sorcery or NP proved to possess a mystery greater than that of Gae Bolg, Gae Bolg's curse will be neutralized. Let's have an overkill example. Lancer invokes Gae Bolg, Sabre invokes Avalon, Gae Bolg attempted to register a hit, but Avalon shut down all magical and physical interference, thus blocking Gae Bolg.

Caliburn in Arthurian legends was the sword that recognizes the King of England, if that holds true in Nasuverse, Archer might not be able to invoke its true power. However, Nasu warped Arthurian legends on several occasions, so I am not very sure. However, Archer should have the ability to trace Excalibur, as he had seen it during his life time. Then again, that was in Fate route, if Archer had done so, it would confuse the readers a lot and spoil too much regarding UBW (at that point, Archer should only have seen Excalibur with Invisible Air).

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Unread post by Rikh » January 12th, 2009, 6:59 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote: Caliburn in Arthurian legends was the sword that recognizes the King of England, if that holds true in Nasuverse, Archer might not be able to invoke its true power. However, Nasu warped Arthurian legends on several occasions, so I am not very sure. However, Archer should have the ability to trace Excalibur, as he had seen it during his life time. Then again, that was in Fate route, if Archer had done so, it would confuse the readers a lot and spoil too much regarding UBW (at that point, Archer should only have seen Excalibur with Invisible Air).
your post was good, but i think its flawed ;)

Archer in UBW made a good threat against Saber while she was protecting Shiro. He stated that he would use his traced form of Excalibur if Saber used her's, which in the end would kill everybody inside UBW from the blast radius (possibly not archer or saber though) so its proven that Archer can use Excalibur
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Unread post by Qaynan » January 13th, 2009, 1:38 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
...Saber replies that God Hand is much more complex than that. And that only a noble phantasm of rank A should be able to break through it.
I remember I selected Archer, which gave me the spiel about Archer potentially knowing Sabre... Did anyone else remember seeing God Hand can only be broken through by NP?
I didn't exactly say that it can only be broken by a NP. It just has to be an "attack" (meaning either normal attack, magical attack or NP) of rank A at least.
What follows is a loooong quote from the game. (That same one I mentioned before... I find it easier to type all this than to take 15 screen shots)
► Show Spoiler
About Gae Bolg's heart-piercing.
If a defensive sorcery or NP proved to possess a mystery greater than that of Gae Bolg, Gae Bolg's curse will be neutralized. Let's have an overkill example. Lancer invokes Gae Bolg, Sabre invokes Avalon, Gae Bolg attempted to register a hit, but Avalon shut down all magical and physical interference, thus blocking Gae Bolg.
By this concept... I guess Gae Bolg can't kill Berserker? That's rather surprising... Poor Lancer.
Caliburn in Arthurian legends was the sword that recognizes the King of England, if that holds true in Nasuverse, Archer might not be able to invoke its true power. However, Nasu warped Arthurian legends on several occasions, so I am not very sure. However, Archer should have the ability to trace Excalibur, as he had seen it during his life time. Then again, that was in Fate route, if Archer had done so, it would confuse the readers a lot and spoil too much regarding UBW (at that point, Archer should only have seen Excalibur with Invisible Air).
Well... Shirou used Caliburn to cut Berserker's hand without much trouble. And even when Saber used Caliburn to kill Berserker 6 times... I don't remember her screaming CALIBA ------ RUNO! (or something that sounds like that lol)
Since one has to call the true name of a NP to use it. I guess that Caliburn could kill Berserker 6 times without even activating it... and if you read the weapon stats of Caliburn... It says it's even less powerful than Excalibur...
And just as Rikh said, Shiro and Archer proved a couple of time to be able to activate Noble Phantasms. At least, Archer said he could use an excaliblast to defend against Saber's if needs be. And Shirou used Avalon.
Well this is to say: It doesn't make much sense. So it's no use trying to figure it out. The point is, Nasu needed Archer to die. So he died. There is no way it means a definite balance of power IMO.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 13th, 2009, 6:22 am

@ Qaynan, I thank you for painstakingly digging up the quote, kudos to you.

However, am I reading this right? Essentially, what Sabre is saying, you need at least attack rank A or NP rank A to dent Berserker. Rank A normal attack will damage Berserker, this seems clear enough. On the other hand, a NP lower than rank A, despite having damage equivalent to that of a normal attack above rank A, WILL NOT hurt Berserker at all? So... essentially Sabre is saying a servant with a high status but weak NP may end up in a ridiculous situation.

Theoretical servant A

STR EX
NP B

Theoretical servant A, take 1: *unleashes rank B antiarmy NP, very impressive looking, but Berserker baths merrily in the blast*

Theoretical servant A, take 2: *delivers several servings of knuckle sandwich to Berserker, Berserker dies*

Huh?

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Unread post by Inverted » January 13th, 2009, 7:27 am

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Unread post by Rikh » January 14th, 2009, 2:11 am

Inverted wrote:
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but the above statement is still pretty much true

even if the C rank NP has the ability to destroy the universe, Berserker will still live easily

However if a B ranked punch hits berserker, he will feel some pain ;)

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Unread post by Xanathos » January 14th, 2009, 2:19 am

Well technically a skill can be used to break god hand. Example being Nine Lives blade works. Archer had that capability but I am assuming he thought nothing of the rock in his berser-car's hands.

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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » January 14th, 2009, 2:45 am

Nine Lives is a high level NP, of course it can penetrate God hand. We are talking about the paradox that a normal attack that is weaker than a NP in terms of destructive power can actually damage Berserker, while the NP cannot.

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