True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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Keeper of Gil's Vault
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 10th, 2008, 12:22 am

As Caliburn demonstrates, multiple lives can be taken simultaneously, therefore it will be more effective to blast Berserker with a massive torrent of Noble Phantasms than allowing him to regenerate/recover from multiple assaults. I guess somehow Gil knew what he was doing when fighting Berserker, isn't that surprising.

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Unread post by Watashimo » December 10th, 2008, 8:08 pm

Off topic, but look what somebody made! At least, I've never seen it sold so I think they made it.

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Unread post by abscess » December 10th, 2008, 8:54 pm

It's cool, and I'm not into figurines. His face kinda resembles Michael Keaton's.... also, wtf with his elbow?
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Unread post by bahamut zero » December 10th, 2008, 9:07 pm

"My elbow is made out of a gigantic screw...."

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Unread post by Watashimo » December 10th, 2008, 9:11 pm

Dunno. Maybe he turned his elbow into a gear? Hehe. "GAH! MY ARM...." *looks at the sky* "GEAR!!" *reattaches forearm* haha
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Unread post by supremehyren » December 11th, 2008, 12:56 am

Also this was a while ago...


Rikh:
During UBW when shiro got a mana supply that overwhelmed him completely, he still did feel great pain

His body during his fight with gil had SURPLUS prana allowing him to trace weapons quickly. However looking at the fight, he still felt pain from the whole event...
Heck, look at him when he was shooting swords at gil, his body got more damaged the more he projected. During UBW chanting his body was in serious pain.

Projection still causes archer pain (if this is what were talking about... if not, then i went off-topic in my point =p )
I believe that, after actually activating UBW, he was completely fine. You know, the scene where that big web of circuits all light up at once? I could be wrong, but I don't remember him complaining about pain after that. Before, he had been projecting as a side effect of UBW(which hurt him), but afterwards he just 'pulled things out'.

As for the Rho Aius scene, in which he says stuff like 'my body is full of holes', etc... I think it's explained by the 'Archer actually projected it' theory. Shirou wasn't being injured at that time.




Enkidu's a chain.

Shirou/Archer can create swords, lances, and shields(at a higher cost).

Can't do chains, so no Enkidu.



Really, though, in an Archer vs. Berserker fight, I can't think of many ways Archer could lose. Shirou/Saber took away seven lives with a single Caliburn attack, right? Archer, on the other hand, took away six lives without using Caliburn.

How do I know he didn't use it? God Hand becomes immune to an attack after being hit by it once, so if Archer had used Caliburn, Shirou/Saber couldn't have used it later.

Anyways:

Berserker needs 12 kills to die.
Archer did 6.
S/S did 7.

If you replace one of Archer's kills with a Caliburn attack... goodness! 12 kills!

I assume he lost because of a plot device, or on purpose. Or maybe bad luck?



...also, you can't assume that Archer has only a few B+ or higher-ranked weapons. You can't expect many A++'s, but I'm certain that normal A-ranks aren't that rare, which would lose a rank from tracing and gain one back as a BP.


Now that I think about it, what if he used Excalibur as a Broken Phantasm? Wouldn't that match Saber's version?


...seriously, I spend way too much time on this...
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 11th, 2008, 1:30 am

supremehyren wrote: Now that I think about it, what if he used Excalibur as a Broken Phantasm? Wouldn't that match Saber's version?
Broken Phantasm is not a "power-up", it just means filling your weapon to the brim with mana and exploding it. Heroic spirits usually don't exert their weapons to the limit because fixing them takes time and mana (like Sabre said, even fixing her armor is tedious). Archer can afford to exert the weapons to the limit, and add some additional kick with the mana.

And yes, I agree completely with the plot device theory. If not for plot device, Gilgamesh will be cleansing the Earth of the human race right now (that is, before Alaya sends out the counterforce).

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Unread post by supremehyren » December 11th, 2008, 1:48 am

Broken Phantasm is not a "power-up", it just means filling your weapon to the brim with mana and exploding it. Heroic spirits usually don't exert their weapons to the limit because fixing them takes time and mana (like Sabre said, even fixing her armor is tedious). Archer can afford to exert the weapons to the limit, and add some additional kick with the mana.
...so you're saying that, (it not being a power-up), using a weapon as a Broken Phantasm will have no effect, other than wasting mana and destroying the weapon?

I'm saying that, if Archer used Excalibur as a Broken Phantasm, he'd be able to use it once, with the same output as Saber's, but then after that it would break. In other words, he uses it as a BP to make up for the tracing rank loss, but can only do so once.

Still, how many things can survive even a single Excaliblast?
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » December 11th, 2008, 1:53 am

What I meant was that, you should consider Broken Phantasm as an attack that is mutually exclusive with the "true attack" of the NP. You cannot invoke the true power of the weapon when you use Broken Phantasm, but intrinsic properties do seem to carry over. So you cannot detonate Excalibur while using the blast. Maybe you can, but it will just explode in your hand, I don't see the point.
To put it simply:

What you are thinking: "Weapon overload mode: ON. Excalibur!"
What I am saying: *Pull safety pin from "Broken Phantasm bomb"* *Hurl* *Cover ears*

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Unread post by samasamon » December 11th, 2008, 2:44 am

Hmm, if Archer use Gram and Merodach, should he take all Berserker' life?

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Unread post by Benawi » December 11th, 2008, 3:13 am

Theirs only one part of the game that i consider a plot hole and that would be Shirou cheesing beserker out of his remaining lives. To me it was stupid and dissapointing when right after explaining how beserker has so many lies for him to just lose them all in one attack. But seriously archer is not a god. He cannot overpower a servent (well maybe rider with shinji as her master but thats a different story) To say theirs almost no chance beserker can beat him is kinda stupid. I'm as big of an Archer fan as their are but i realize that everyone has their limit. We dont even know if archer would have enough mana to even turn Excalibur into a broken phantasm. Excalibur alone takes a tremendous amount of magic so to overflow such a weapon to the point of bursting seems like stretching it. In my oppinion even if he does succeed he would prolly overload his circuits or blow out his arm or something making him useless. Theirs not really a reason to think that Archer doesnt recieve the same burden as shirou when it comes to projection. Even though he's a servent his magic circuit is still the same as shirous. And if his way of casting magic is still the same then why would he at one point just stop feeling a burden. Yes his compacity increased by becoming more efficiant in projection but to consider their to be no effect at all doesnt make sense.

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Unread post by Grelline » December 11th, 2008, 4:08 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.
Do remember that Gilgamesh was standing still while barraging berserker and its been shown that Archers quite good at dodging and has Minds eye (True) at rank B, Archer probably could've stopped Berserker with UBW

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Unread post by Raitei » December 11th, 2008, 4:12 am

Grelline wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.
Do remember that Gilgamesh was standing still while barraging berserker and its been shown that Archers quite good at dodging and has Minds eye (True) at rank B, Archer probably could've stopped Berserker with UBW
but you also do have to remember that archer's ubw had his weapons degraded by a whole rank. there would not be many weapons with rank greater than b which can hurt berserker left in ubw, unlike gob.
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Unread post by Grelline » December 11th, 2008, 4:17 am

Raitei wrote:
Grelline wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:It doesn't really matter. Gilgamesh killed Berserker with Gate of Babylon only with the aid of Erikidu, the NP blast itself cannot kill Berserker sufficiently fast. He can get into melee range while taking the hits. UBW offers the same thing as GoB, only weaker. He would die whether he uses the reality marble or not. It seems Archer came from a time line in which he has never seen Erikidu. Otherwise he would have traced a bunch of them and hog-tied Berserker real good.
Do remember that Gilgamesh was standing still while barraging berserker and its been shown that Archers quite good at dodging and has Minds eye (True) at rank B, Archer probably could've stopped Berserker with UBW
but you also do have to remember that archer's ubw had his weapons degraded by a whole rank. there would not be many weapons with rank greater than b which can hurt berserker left in ubw, unlike gob.
Oh yeah :P Im sleepy and just using the status screen, i know Ive seen it before but where exactly does it say that berserker can only be hurt by B+ noble phantasms?

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Unread post by Xamdou » December 11th, 2008, 4:21 am

putting these aside , isn't using image as signatures not allowed anymore?
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Unread post by Watashimo » December 11th, 2008, 4:37 am

Maybe I missed something but what I don't understand is the "weapons losing a rank" thing. Once Shirou uses UBW he says "there is no rule stating a fake can't be the original." And then proceeds to match every single one of Gilgamesh's weapons and IIRC, breaks them. In that case doesn't that suggest that inside of UBW, the weapons are actually the original rank? Inside of his mind, the weapons should still be the same. He did not "project" them, so I don't think they lose any rank inside of UBW. He didn't "create swords," he created a world containing infinite swords. Even though he only beat Gilgamesh because he could pull out his weapons quicker, I still think he only beat the actual weapons themselves because they were the same rank. Remember in Fate when Gilgamesh proceeds to actually cut through Shirou's projection? That doesn't happen after Shirou projects UBW. Maybe I missed something, but thats how I see it.
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Unread post by Raitei » December 11th, 2008, 10:53 am

Watashimo wrote:Maybe I missed something but what I don't understand is the "weapons losing a rank" thing. Once Shirou uses UBW he says "there is no rule stating a fake can't be the original." And then proceeds to match every single one of Gilgamesh's weapons and IIRC, breaks them. In that case doesn't that suggest that inside of UBW, the weapons are actually the original rank?
in reality, his weapon didn't break gil's. it was gil who break shirou's weapon with his when he started to get desperate, since shirou's ubw proved more than an obstacle to him (and it DOESN'T necessarily mean both weapons are destroyed; the game just said "...and he started breaking my weapon with his").
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Unread post by BlackTornado » December 11th, 2008, 2:56 pm

his swords are still decreased by a rank in ubw. Remember that archer's "projection" is an extension of his ubw; that is why his projected weapons far exceed what normal people can project. So no, its not projection =/= ubw. projection <- ubw.
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Unread post by Inverted » December 11th, 2008, 3:13 pm

Their weapons break each other
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Unread post by Benawi » December 11th, 2008, 3:17 pm

Raitei wrote:
Watashimo wrote:Maybe I missed something but what I don't understand is the "weapons losing a rank" thing. Once Shirou uses UBW he says "there is no rule stating a fake can't be the original." And then proceeds to match every single one of Gilgamesh's weapons and IIRC, breaks them. In that case doesn't that suggest that inside of UBW, the weapons are actually the original rank?
in reality, his weapon didn't break gil's. it was gil who break shirou's weapon with his when he started to get desperate, since shirou's ubw proved more than an obstacle to him (and it DOESN'T necessarily mean both weapons are destroyed; the game just said "...and he started breaking my weapon with his").
It wouldnt make sense if only shirou's side was losing weapons. The whole point of the fight was that Shirou was able to reel out swords much faster than Gil. Which is why Shirou had the advantage. If gil's swords didnt break him simply had to keep using the same swords.

But ya the game does infact tell you at the start of the fight that their breaking each others swords. "I oppose longsword with a longsword. The swords break each other and the shards are sent flying." The quote clearly says that the swords break each other so i think its reasonable to say that their both losing their swords in the fight.

Edit: since i was slow with my post it seems some1 beat me to it ^_^

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