True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

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abscess
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Unread post by abscess » November 19th, 2008, 10:15 pm

*phew*
I was startin' to doubt myself because of Zwei!
Glad I wasn't wrong!
....
Though that age is still illegal where I come from....
..... Hmm...
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

zweiterversuch
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Unread post by zweiterversuch » November 19th, 2008, 10:45 pm

I won't say much to this thread...( as I always do...) but:

Gil is in the 5th war a lot weaker than he really is.

Gil possesses weapons Archer doesn't (Ea, that flying ship, Enkidu...etc etc...)

NOTE: Gil is an Idiot. He is too full of himself.

2:

Archer is shirou so he already knows about Beserker's weaknesses and his noble phantom. (He doesn't say it but he knows it!)

_________________________________________________________________

3: Archer is shirou so he doesn't kill like Shiki or other type-moon charas.

Shirou = Shirowns...

For instance: Gil was shirownd because he was an idiot.

Shiki = Shikills

Nero was shikilled due to the same reason.
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gexer64
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Unread post by gexer64 » November 20th, 2008, 12:08 am

abscess wrote: Well, yeah, she does eat Archer's soul in Fate route and HF, but I doubt that, at the time of death (or whatever it is with servants), the info the soul carries (personality, memories, etc.) is left. Wasn't it said somewhere that the soul of the servant is converted into energy or something like that?


► Show Spoiler

Also
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In a single answer lies a thousand questions.

AlextheLazy
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Unread post by AlextheLazy » November 20th, 2008, 3:31 am

Mkilbride wrote:She doesn't go into that, she was like 16! 16! To old to be a loli.
wait I thought Akira was 14 or 15

Akiha was 16

Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » November 20th, 2008, 3:39 am

AlextheLazy wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:She doesn't go into that, she was like 16! 16! To old to be a loli.
wait I thought Akira was 14 or 15

Akiha was 16
the new game must be a sequel then, as Akiha is 18 there ;)

j/k of course

Kid-Wolf
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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » November 20th, 2008, 3:42 am

AlextheLazy wrote:
Mkilbride wrote:She doesn't go into that, she was like 16! 16! To old to be a loli.
wait I thought Akira was 14 or 15

Akiha was 16
Actually Akira is around 14-15 since she knows her though the school, and not only that, but Akiha is a garde higher then her. Hmmm.... Akiha-sempai huh? For some reason that just doesn't sound right, but that's probablly just me.

As for Sakura well yeah she is that old, but strangely very well developed for her age if you ask me though. But never the less it's basically saying that they were portraied by models over the age of 18 just because I guess.

abscess
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Unread post by abscess » November 20th, 2008, 5:13 am

This are all numbers I'm pulling from my head, so they aren't to be trusted completely:
Shiki was 17 in Tsukihime, Akiha 16 by that time. Akira's story happens after Tsukihime but before KT (which happens a year after Tsukihime), that would maker her 15 in Plus+Disk and 16 in KT. As far as I know lolis are lolis until the age of 13 or 14. So, Akira is not a loli! YAAAY! :D

Anyway, for the sake of going back on topic:
gexer64 wrote:
abscess wrote: Well, yeah, she does eat Archer's soul in Fate route and HF, but I doubt that, at the time of death (or whatever it is with servants), the info the soul carries (personality, memories, etc.) is left. Wasn't it said somewhere that the soul of the servant is converted into energy or something like that?


► Show Spoiler
Also
► Show Spoiler
Hmm!.... Then Rikh's paradox still holds true.... A big plot-hole indeed!
Doubt there will be any FSN remake, at least not anytime soon, but I'd like to see that hole addressed somehow.
Last edited by abscess on November 20th, 2008, 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

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Unread post by Nerroth » November 20th, 2008, 5:15 am

Kid-Wolf wrote:As for Sakura well yeah she is that old, but strangely very well developed for her age if you ask me though. But never the less it's basically saying that they were portraied by models over the age of 18 just because I guess.
They have to say they are 18 to pass the censorship laws, I think.


(It's also why high schools are referred to with generic terms like 'Academies' or something - to make it more like somewhere that 18 -year-olds would conceivably go to.)

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Unread post by Kid-Wolf » November 20th, 2008, 5:16 am

Well if there is going to be a remake I have to say these three things now:

1.) Where's my Illya route?
2.) Where's my Mituszuri route?
3.) Where's my Taiga route?

Since the remake should have a least one of those three now.

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Unread post by NonExistence » November 20th, 2008, 5:41 am

... why are we suddenly talking about a remake?
... why are we suddenly talking about the possible existence of an ilya/mitsuzuri/taiga route in a tsukihime remake?
... why are we suddenly talking about a tsukihime remake in the fate/stay night chat section?

back to topic: archer's capabilities are almost derived completely from skill-copy. he's like the fate version of kakashi, except not pervy and capable of puncturing people in a giant field of smog and magically rotating gears. in melee his strength is almost always a slightly weaker version of the wielder of the blade he traces, so there is no so-called true basic melee strength.
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Unread post by nanaya_shinya » November 20th, 2008, 6:28 am

The more swords he copy the more powerful he gets, he basically has the potential to be the best Heroic Spirit of all but he's limited because of the story plot.
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Unread post by DrunkDragon » November 20th, 2008, 6:57 am

On the reason why Illy doesnt know who he was in fate might be because Archer's memories were still screwy from summon. Also why he didn't use UBW that is if he even could use it. Im pretty sure Archer could have owned Berserker if he had.
Last edited by DrunkDragon on November 20th, 2008, 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread post by Inverted » November 20th, 2008, 7:37 am

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Raitei
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Unread post by Raitei » November 20th, 2008, 7:56 am

DrunkDragon wrote:On the reason why Illy doesnt know who he was in fate might be because Archer's memories were still screwy from summon. Also why he didn't use UBW that is if he even could use it. I pretty sure he could have owned Berserker if he had.
I would say ubw's more of a hindrance than a trump card against berserker. chanting 7 lines like in the anime? I would say it's very damn risky compared to just firing 7 broken phantasms.
nanaya_shinya wrote: he basically has the potential to be the best Heroic Spirit of all but he's limited because of the story plot.
that's not true. archer isn't limited because of plot devices; he is limited from the beginning. (heck, he didn't even have the power to become an eirei by himself)

and status comparison with other servants pretty much tells you everything. let's create a scenario where archer fights other servants in f/sn :
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I'm an agent of chaos."
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samasamon
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Unread post by samasamon » November 20th, 2008, 10:37 am

UBW rank is E-A++. Is that plot hole?

A++ downgrade from?
E downgrade to?
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Keeper of Gil's Vault
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Unread post by Keeper of Gil's Vault » November 20th, 2008, 7:49 pm

Notice GoB is also E~A++, I guess it is a way of saying they are pretty much the same? Nasu's power level thing is more for reference, not to be taken hardcore like D&D rules.
Archer is good, but he is more of a tier 2 servant like Kojiro status-wise. His versatility and resourcefulness are really the key here. I always find myself comparing Archer and Lancer, I think Nasu intended this way. They are different, yet similar.

Archer: Red, range, cynical, calculating

Lancer: Blue, melee, happy-go-lucky (dude, he wants to drink with his enemies), wild and confrontational

Both of them have their sinister sides, and both of them have their noble sides. I guess it comes with being members of the Knight Class.

*Did I mention both of them want to kill Shirou at some point or another? O, never mind, everyone wants to kill Shirou...

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Unread post by Shiirn » November 21st, 2008, 1:42 am

There are certain things that need to be taken into consideration.

That is, Archer in UBW and Archer outside UBW.


In a straight-out melee fight (With kansho/bakuya only), Archer will lose to every. single. servant. (That would engage in a melee fight, Caster/Hassan/Gilgamesh would fight for distance, gilgamesh would just force him to stay away w/ gob.)
The only reason he lasted so long against Lancer is because Lancer was held back by the command mantra.

However, in UBW he has access to a multitude of weapons, and each one a possible counter....

Let's set them against each Servant: (F/HA spoilers are in there too)

Draw = both servants die, or both servants retreat.

Saber:
► Show Spoiler
Lancer:
► Show Spoiler
Berserker:
► Show Spoiler
Caster:
► Show Spoiler
Rider:
► Show Spoiler
Assassin (Sasaki)
► Show Spoiler
Gilgamesh:
► Show Spoiler
True Assassin:
► Show Spoiler

Avenger: Lol. Avenger gets pwned 100%.



Of course, this is all useless conjecture. If Archer can pull out Gae Bolg from UBW and use it, it's all up to luck from there.

I seem to be addicted to these long posts. Someone comment on these so I don't feel like I wasted my time.


EDIT: Oh, people still seem to be confused about the Archer's Memory part.

Archer's f**king LYING! He's LYYIIIINNNGGGGG. He knew who he was from the second he appeared; he acted like he did because he'd've freaked Rin the hell out and confused her (Hey, I'm Emiya Shirou lololololol)

This can be inferred because of the way he acted with saber: As if he knew her, was very close to her. He wouldn't be that way unless he was *remembering his own holy grail war*. Also because he never, ever shows any inclination to harm Ilya (Despite being more then happy to risk anybody else's lives; especially unnamed people).
Last edited by Shiirn on November 21st, 2008, 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rikh
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Unread post by Rikh » November 21st, 2008, 1:45 am

well going over Archers NP erm... BP's

Caladbolg II
Kansho/Byakua
Hrunting or hurnting? whatever... you know what i mean
Rho Aias
UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS
every single replication of any damn NP he can get his eyes and projecting hands on...
A lean bow
and his "I am the Bone of my Sword" buffs for his projections
(Plus the overedge ability with kansho and byakua... which i will never know why he didn't use it... nor were there awesome CG's...)


Well when archer fought lancer, its a somewhat given that he cannot fully stand up in melee fighting against him. Although he can block lancers most powerful attack

Archer can do the same with gil as shiro did. If he tries to even pull out Ea, archer will cut his arm off in the process...
Plus, when gil wants to go serious in F/SN, then let him.... but so far, he NEVER did it whenever he got pwnt by anybody...
so i cant expect him to do it for archer

Caster archer can pretty much own... he even has the ability to rip through casters spells that freezes time... to even protect her

Archer i dont believe can beat saber. He can surly match her in combat for awhile, but saber can beat archer in melee... Plus archer wouldnt snipe saber due to his past, and sadly he would fight the way best for saber

Berserker... well come on.... Shiro beat berserker in HF with an axe sword with the support of archers arm. Archer might be able to do the same as well. After all, archer is the true strength of shiro made by his whole life of training.

Assassin, archer should not melee this guy, he will get pwned.... Saber barely...barely won against him with pure luck on her side. Finding another method to win might be good

Against True assassin, i believe archer could beat him rather easily. True assassin was weaker than all of the servants, and archers ability to notice enemies is incredibly high compared to others (look how many times shiro saved saber on instinct... arher must be 10x as good as this)
Kotomine owned True assassin, and lancer as well.. the only problems is that
► Show Spoiler
had to jump in and devour all the servants

anywho, i prefer archer over any servant... no servant can dare match him in GAR, except for maybe Garzerker or Garncer
Although archers GAR total is threatened by Gartomine who has enough GAR to wtfpwnbbqsauce people...
Shiros pretty gar in HF, adding to archers total collaborative GARness

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Unread post by Shiirn » November 21st, 2008, 1:52 am

Shirou beat Berserker because Berserker was decrepit, blind, and weakened. The fact that Shirou could see Berserker attacking was a testament to this: during the VS Saber Berserker fight right after the prologue, Shirou said he couldn't even see the attacks. This of course could be due to Archer's arm buffing his stats, but Dark Berserker was extremely, irrevocably weakened.

Let me just say this again because I like saying it: In a straight out sword fight, no NPs, Sasaki would own every single servant that stepped up to him. Saber got by because Sasaki seriously handed her the win on a platter (He mangled his own sword. Wtf.)

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Unread post by Shikiller » November 21st, 2008, 1:54 am

In a straight-out melee fight (With kansho/bakuya only), Archer will lose to every. single. servant.

Archer's arm shirou says hi to saber

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