True power of Archer (spoilers)

It's alright, we feel your pain. Noone wants to admit being gar for Berserker.

Moderator: Staffers

BlackTornado
Addict
Posts: 115
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 10:09 am

Unread post by BlackTornado » December 4th, 2008, 2:32 pm

gexer64 wrote:
BlackTornado wrote:
joker ftw! Pain receptors warn you of danger. Soon the body will release hormones to suppress the pain when its evident that the pain can do no more good
When you say joker, are you referring to me? If so you may continue to do so :D
no. i was referring to the joker in batman. He said, what does not kill us, makes us stranger.
fourFyFSIX

gexer64
Crack Desu!
Posts: 342
Joined: August 9th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Unread post by gexer64 » December 4th, 2008, 2:35 pm

......

I'm already very strange thank you very much.
In a single answer lies a thousand questions.

BlackTornado
Addict
Posts: 115
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 10:09 am

Unread post by BlackTornado » December 4th, 2008, 2:36 pm

you are absolutely welcome
fourFyFSIX

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » December 4th, 2008, 2:39 pm

gexer64 wrote:Your wording of your last sentence makes it kinda hard to understand. Please clarify.

And let me explain something. Pain is used by your body to say "hey you should stop what you're doing. It's bad." If pain gets in the way of your survival the body turns the pain sensors off. It's a means to survive.
yeah, so since when you don't feel pain after you lost a limb or two? lagging in the nerve reaction doesn't mean the sensor is killed. :P

oh, and also,
......

I'm already very strange thank you very much.
the joker considers himself can still get stranger. can you? :)

that said, back on topic why archer feel or doesn't feel pain in projection. simple. whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you stranger. :wink:
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

BlackTornado
Addict
Posts: 115
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 10:09 am

Unread post by BlackTornado » December 4th, 2008, 2:41 pm

well the pain is there, but it will die down after a while. most of the suffering is psychological.
Raitei wrote: that said, back on topic why archer feel or doesn't feel pain in projection. simple. whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you stranger. :wink:
Seconded
fourFyFSIX

gexer64
Crack Desu!
Posts: 342
Joined: August 9th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Unread post by gexer64 » December 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm

Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:Your wording of your last sentence makes it kinda hard to understand. Please clarify.

And let me explain something. Pain is used by your body to say "hey you should stop what you're doing. It's bad." If pain gets in the way of your survival the body turns the pain sensors off. It's a means to survive.
yeah, so since when you don't feel pain after you lost a limb or two? lagging in the nerve reaction doesn't mean the sensor is killed. :P

oh, and also,
......

I'm already very strange thank you very much.
the joker considers himself can still get stranger. can you? :)
Is this a challenge? I believe I have made some strange posts here. But can I get stranger? Yes!

Rule #34 Shirou and Ort!
In a single answer lies a thousand questions.

Prince6233
Posting more than n00bs
Posts: 24
Joined: November 30th, 2008, 9:28 am
Location: Monkeystaan

Unread post by Prince6233 » December 5th, 2008, 3:36 pm

Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?
I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. :wink: (oh wait. shouldn't it be "stronger"?)
LOLLZ :lol: RAITEI IS QUOTING SHAWN HBK MICHAELS IN A THREAD DEDICATED TO ARCHERS TRUE POWER :lol:

supremehyren
Might just like this board
Posts: 53
Joined: March 22nd, 2008, 3:12 am

Unread post by supremehyren » December 7th, 2008, 7:10 am

From Fuyuki Wiki
In this Reality Marble, the substances needed to form all swords are present. Just by looking at the original, it is possible to replicate it. However, the replicated weapon is lowered by one rank. Defensive armaments are possible but the normal projection cost is two to three times the regular amount of Prana used in making swords. A weapon replicated once is recorded in the barrier and can be made without activating the Reality Marble using tracing thaumaturgy.

Against a normal opponent, it's only an ability that's somewhat troublesome, but it's the ultimate counter against a certain king of heroes.

The substances involved in the creation of Ea are probably not inside it; Ea wasn't possible to analyze. Creation of Excalibur is possible, but not a perfect version of it. It's also likely that using its energy blast would result in him using up all of his Prana, hence it would be a suicide attack for him, which is why he never traces it even just as a normal weapon; his personally developed close-combat technique with his twin swords is better suited for him and Shirou (although raw power might be less).

For Emiya Shirou, whose life had been saved by a sword and who actually merged together and lived with a sword, his body wouldn't be the type that would destroy itself from sword-making.
So, anyways, key concepts....

1. Can't destroy himself from making swords.

(Now that I think about it, in the UBW route, didn't Shirou get hurt from making swords only before he got support from Rin? Before, he had less mana available. My guess is that he was overusing his circuits and trying to use magic when out of mana, so he hurt himself. Think of it as lactic acid buildup when muscles are used and there isn't enough oxygen.)


2. Excaliblast is bad because of prana cost.

(I believe that, at that time, Archer was both badly injured and masterless, working on Independant Action. Of course he didn't have enough mana to use Excalibur. In a fair fight with both sides having 'perfect master support', on the other hand, he could definitely use it.)

3. UBW = Reality Marble, which is different from projection.
(In other words, arguments like 'projection is a wasteful and painful process' are useless, although the explaination from the wiki's a little too vague for my tastes.)

Oh, and also, Shirou isn't the same as Archer, who is from a slightly different timeline... actually, it's more like Archer = Shirou, but Shirou != Archer.
"No matter how kickass I am, I'll wake up when surrounded by five loud women."

-Tohno Shiki (Drinking, Dreaming Moon)

Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread post by Mkilbride » December 7th, 2008, 7:16 am

Only "Somewhat troublesome"? That wiki is horrible.

He managed to take like 5 freaking of Zerkers lives. That's impressive for ANY SERVANT.

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 7:23 am

Mkilbride wrote:Only "Somewhat troublesome"? That wiki is horrible.

He managed to take like 5 freaking of Zerkers lives. That's impressive for ANY SERVANT.
did he activate ubw against berserker? no, he didn't. why? because it's troublesome. (chanting 7 lines, prana upkeep, etc, etc)
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

wyldfire
Addict
Posts: 68
Joined: October 18th, 2008, 1:56 am

Unread post by wyldfire » December 7th, 2008, 7:35 am

where does it say that he didn't activate his ubw while fighting agains berserkar...

abscess
I can haz postingz nao? K thx
Posts: 1939
Joined: April 25th, 2008, 10:08 am
Location: Parmistan lol

Unread post by abscess » December 7th, 2008, 7:41 am

As far as I remember, there is nothing telling us what happened in the fight, he could have done it and got owned anyways. In the anime he used it along with his overedge, but since it's not canon, we won't know. Unless there is a scene depicting the fight in RN and we don't know or some info in all those book roaming around, I stick with my previous statement.
"I settled for that shriek. Those dull vacant eyes... oiled cabbage stench of her...! [...] You know what? I'm sorry if I'm not gonna do this the way you want me to or the way you might. But I will not make an angel out of someone who wasn't an angel...!" -Chief Tyrol, on his beloved wife.
Have you heard about the saying that goes something like "drunk people and kids tell no lies"? Well, that's just a fallacy.

Mkilbride
DESU DESU!
Posts: 686
Joined: May 20th, 2007, 7:56 pm

Unread post by Mkilbride » December 7th, 2008, 8:00 am

Well I thought it was always a GIVEN he used UBW in the fight. I mean, what the hell else? His normal twin swords couldn't do much and even his Noble Phantasm arrow thing barely scratched him. I think it's just obvious in some way, not to mention, if he really did "intend to win"(even if he was bluffing, well, he was, he knew what fate awaited him, being you know who)he still needed to go all out to kill Zerker that many times. If he truly could not use his Ultimate(UBW) and defeat Zerker 5 times or so...I mean...everyone else in the grail war would be cake. Caster would easily be defeated, I mean, if he's like Gil, it'd obviously be able to pwn her. Lancer may be trouble, I'll ADMIT to that, with his damn heart jab. Other than that, he CAN beat Gil, as is evident that if Shirou using UBW can, then surely a more experienced and skillful version could.(Archer)

Archer could beat:
Caster
Gil
Assassin(I mean cmon, he restricts movement on the stairs for an advantage, in UBW, he'd be totally open with no where to do his little slashes, he'd be pwned.
True Assassin(Once again, like Lancer, this COULD provide a challenge, with his damned heart thing)
Lancer(See above, he may be able to beat him, but it's not a sure thing)


Could not beat:
Saber(Plain and simple - he wouldn't have the WILL to fight her. He'd most likely just not go all out and do empty attacks.
Zerker(I mean, even with UBW, Zerker would still probably be to much. Not to mention, Gil could beat Zerker, and Shirou / Archer could be Gil, but Shirou / Archer couldn't beat Zerker...love plot devices)

Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 8:02 am

supremehyren wrote:various stuffz...
During UBW when shiro got a mana supply that overwhelmed him completely, he still did feel great pain

His body during his fight with gil had SURPLUS prana allowing him to trace weapons quickly. However looking at the fight, he still felt pain from the whole event...
Heck, look at him when he was shooting swords at gil, his body got more damaged the more he projected. During UBW chanting his body was in serious pain.

Projection still causes archer pain (if this is what were talking about... if not, then i went off-topic in my point =p )

Raitei
OMG! WTF WHO SET THIS TITLE! LULZ
Posts: 2277
Joined: August 7th, 2007, 12:26 pm
Location: Distant wilderness

Unread post by Raitei » December 7th, 2008, 9:00 am

where does it say that he didn't activate his ubw while fighting agains berserkar...
that's like bush saying saddam has weapons of mass destruction because you cannot prove he doesn't.
Mkilbride wrote:
► Show Spoiler
look, stop making up things just because you like it. archer did not use ubw in his fight against berserker. why?

1. when he used ubw, the hall shouldn't be messy like that; reality marble is a bounded barrier, a different world in which the creator seals himself and the people around in a completely different dimension.
2. ilya should have noticed when archer used a reality marble. she didn't; only muttering her being vexed that archer managed to kill berserker 5 times.
3. not enough prana with only independent action to expand ubw. his master wasn't there, thus leaving him all alone with his resources.
4. too inefficient. chanting 7 lines while under pressure exposes him greatly to risks.
5. broken phantasms alone can do the job more efficiently. who said he only used kansho and bakuya against berserker? just trace 5 diferent broken phantasms and you get 5 kills already. no need to expand ubw. archer can trace things less than seconds; why bother expanding ubw?
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order and everything becomes... chaos.
I'm an agent of chaos."
Fate/world providence

BlackTornado
Addict
Posts: 115
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 10:09 am

Unread post by BlackTornado » December 7th, 2008, 9:07 am

this makes me wonder, how did he take out five lives? I mean, his inferior agility would mean that he has little time to trace and unleash even 1 broken phantasm, not to mention 5. Even with mind's eye, it seems very tough...
fourFyFSIX

xthr
Crack Addic!
Posts: 215
Joined: November 9th, 2008, 8:53 am

Unread post by xthr » December 7th, 2008, 9:22 am

The true power of Archer:
Xamdou wrote:
► Show Spoiler
You gotta admit, that's pretty impressively GAR feat.

Rikh
DESU DESU!
Posts: 649
Joined: July 19th, 2008, 6:07 pm
Location: Unlimited Taiga Works

Unread post by Rikh » December 7th, 2008, 9:49 am

BlackTornado wrote:this makes me wonder, how did he take out five lives? I mean, his inferior agility would mean that he has little time to trace and unleash even 1 broken phantasm, not to mention 5. Even with mind's eye, it seems very tough...
well Shiro traced Caliburn like 3 times against berserker mid-fight... So you can assume archer could do it much faster and efficient(er?)


Also @ Ratei

Yah i pretty much agree with you... Also you should add in

UBW pulls up a world of infinite swords... against a normal servant thats helpful, but against berserker i 'would' be a waste of mana

As all traced weapons are reduced a rank, it would be somewhat un-useful against berserker who requires b rank minimum weapons to harm him

Archer would save a large amount of mana by just tracing a few higher ranked weapons to attack with, then create UBW which would have like 1000 D ranked weps, 80 C ranked weps, 10 B Ranked Weps, and like 3 A ranked weps

So UBW against Berserker is somewhat useless
Unless the Giant Sprocket cogwheel things are rank EX divine spirit crushing weapons of mass destruction

Benawi
Might just like this board
Posts: 31
Joined: December 2nd, 2008, 2:51 pm

Unread post by Benawi » December 7th, 2008, 6:30 pm

All the debate on archers fighting capability is pretty much pointless because as shown with shirou. He relies on catching the enemy off guard(Even beserker who had lost all reasoning was confused on how such a completely unknown servant was able to kill him 5 or 6 times(i think it was different between the VN and anime)) and pulling out an unexpected fatal attack rather then overpowering the enemy, You cant judge his fighting capabilities on stats because the majority of his strength comes from picturing weapons so his strength is always changing(for all any of us know he could have 1000 other weapons we've never even heard about at his disposal) and you cant judge on fighting because his only true fight was with Beserker and they dont even show it. (You can count Shirou Vs Archer but that was more a battle of ideals then a battle of strength). All other fights didnt show archer getting serious and in the fights with lancer, lancer was also being held back.

matthewfarenheit
Addict
Posts: 111
Joined: July 31st, 2008, 12:08 am

Unread post by matthewfarenheit » December 7th, 2008, 11:15 pm

I more or less agree with the points that were made. I don't think it's an established 100% sure fact for the fandom if Archer managed or not to cast UBW against Berserker, but I wanted to adress a different point that I had repeatedly seen and think utterly erroneous:
Raitei wrote:3. not enough prana with only independent action to expand ubw. his master wasn't there, thus leaving him all alone with his resources
Independent action doesn't activate unless the Servant is rendered masterless. In no part of the game there's a stated limitation on the DISTANCE a Servant can have between him and his Master: Servants are always supplied with Prana as long as they have a Master and this FACT is given the spotlight when
► Show Spoiler
Running on Independent Action means that the Servant doesn't have a Master, not that it ditched him/her.

Post Reply