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Posted: December 3rd, 2008, 5:14 pm
by Prince6233
@Raitei

Ae you done with your immature trash talking or do u wanna add some stuff Related towards the topic
btw it aint my fault that u r noob in other language than english

I repea that post was for wyld fire ad it doesnt concerns you so would you mind doing your own business which dosnt concern you :x
and btw grow up and stop acting like a child calling other peoples language and culture as gutteris

Posted: December 3rd, 2008, 5:17 pm
by Prince6233
@benawi

thanks for the info i am new here in this forum i didnt knew about the private messaging next time i will use that

Posted: December 3rd, 2008, 10:20 pm
by Rikh
@ Prince6233

I'm not even going to ask about the name... but double posting is kinda pointless here

you can easily post two @'s on a message and multi-reply...

Also dont go off topic and try to flame Ratei... that's not a smart move, staying on topic prevents locked threads :)

Posted: December 3rd, 2008, 11:11 pm
by Raitei
to quote yourself :
Prince6233 wrote:@benawi

thanks for the info i am new here in this forum i didnt knew about the private messaging next time i will use that
to quote the rule :
1. You must be over the age of 18. Do not behave in a manner that may be considered "immature." This includes not reading threads before posting, or acting in any way under the age of 18!
I simply pointed out the rule. the fact that you jump on me because of it, as well as displaying inadequate mastery on english and things as double posting just emboldened the fact that YOU are the one behaving immaturely. stop posting if you don't have anything more useful other than to flame people and talk trash will you?

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 12:35 am
by supremehyren
Rikh:
Shiro 'can' trace infinite swords if he really wanted to...
in fact, if given all the mana he can...

however, shown in all routes, especially in UBW... its impossible for him

He will kill him self through burning out his magic circuits and causing extreme physical damage on his body
creating a sword is not easy for archer, its just through time he has more ability, and experiences less pain than shiro...
I'm talking about Archer, not Shirou. Yes, Shirou does experience pain and burn circuits and whatnot when he he projects.... but when does this happen to Archer? He never shows any evidence of hurting himself when making swords. I assume this is because Archer's doing it the right way(that is, using UBW without manifesting it), which is all that his body was meant to do in the first place.

In other words, I doubt Archer takes physical damage from creating weapons, and could do so infinitely with enough mana.

When Shirou used UBW, he created a number of swords far surpassing his limits painlessly(so wyldfire is right).

As for Rho Aius, I believe the creation went fine, but he was hurt by Lancer's Gae Bolg, hence the damage. Rho Aius takes 3x as much mana, so it would be a waste to make two when the attack is a lance, which it's strong against anyways.

Archer still has a penalty for projecting... Archers mana-pool is always decently high throughout the whole game, the whole problem as to why he cant just spawn infinite swords, is that his magic circuits will be destroyed

Can Servant magic circuits even be destroyed? It seems odd that a spiritual being would have a weakness like that, and nothing the other Servants do imply this.


He didn't use infinite sword spam because it would take up too much mana, which wasn't available. However, if given a mana source as large as Black Saber(Sakura) or Gilgamesh(draining fire survivors/holy grail), it seems that he'd definitely be superior to them.


To summarize:

Archer isn't hurt by making swords(as he uses UBW), and just needs more mana to make more.
An even fight would assume infinite mana for both sides, so Archer would have the advantage with multiple copies.

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 12:53 am
by Benawi
Although it never specifically shows it in the VN (he does blow out his arm in the anime vs beserker but thats not canon) I would assume the same laws apply to him. The reason it doesnt happen would be due to the facts that he knows his limits and wouldnt make careless mistakes such as shirou would. Dont get me wrong Archer can use projection much more than Shirou ( i think it was somewhere near 17 times that he reprojected his twin swords when fighting against lancer the first fight and showed know trace of being near any sort of limit, he also shoots several swords at once on accasions even without UBW)but i feel theirs still a strain on his body which is why he cant project higher up swords when his body is in a poor condition.

As for Rho Aius doesnt shirou use a sheild similar to this when fighting gil and when the shield was damaged it was his own body that is damaged. Maybe projecting Rho Aius has some connection with ones body and when the shield gets damaged archers body will get damaged as well. This is just a theory of mine that is most likely false seeing as how i dont remember shirou recieving much physical damage when he projected Aius in HF but its still something to think about

In all truth if archer had the ability to spam excaliburs at the opponent do u think he wouldnt of done so the first chance he got. Also why would he stick with using a sword such as Calidborg II as a broken phantasm due to its low projection cost if he could project Excalibur Mach 5 (joke weapon) using only a larger supply of mana that would easilly be recharged

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 12:57 am
by BlackTornado
thanks supremehyren for going back on topic. Yeah, I am also not very convinced that archer takes penalty for projection... After all, he is already a heroic spirit with the "knowledge of orthodox magic" ability (cant rmb its name). Does that not mean that he can use magic like a normal magus? Normal magi do not get penalty for casting magic, see Rin for instance.

off topic: @raitei: Does the name Aldous mean anything to you?

Edit: @benawi: if you use up a large amount of ur mana, and if your enemy somehow survives, you will be completely vulnerable, and waiting to be picked off like a sitting duck. Not a very good idea, no? Archer, being so experienced in battles, would not commit such a mistake. He will make sure that he can get a sure kill before trying something so risky

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:24 am
by Rikh
Umm... well since this is a spoilered topic, i guess its ok to let out spoilers

Archer is Shiro nomatter what
The fact is, he projects the same way shiro does. His magic circuits 'can' burn up. Archer is just a magus who is talented in sword projection
A statement earlier said that Rin does not feel pain when projecting. This is not true... reading Fuyuki wiki's defenition on the process of magecraft and magic circuits... it always causes the magus pain

Rin has less pain due to her jewels, and she obviously does not push her self to 1/10th of shiro's level of tolerance...

I mean seriously, a good example... Look at HF... She used magic above her level, and her arm was ripping apart every time she did a mana-burst with Zelretch

Anyways, Archer feels less pain than Emiya Shiro true... this is because he is Shiro's perfect form of projection... However nomatter what, when he activates his circuits, he does feel pain

He was owned by caster during UBW... By what you said (plus casters MASSIVE mana supply) He should have EASILY been able to project a large amount of Excaliburs at will.... But see thats where your wrong... Archer is still a magus and limited as a magus... he will feel the same pain as Shiro during projection, and also his magic circuits. Dispite what you honestly believe. do have a limit to his abilities

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:34 am
by Raitei
BlackTornado wrote:thanks supremehyren for going back on topic. Yeah, I am also not very convinced that archer takes penalty for projection... After all, he is already a heroic spirit with the "knowledge of orthodox magic" ability (cant rmb its name). Does that not mean that he can use magic like a normal magus? Normal magi do not get penalty for casting magic, see Rin for instance.
that's not true. rin once said that gradation air, or projection magic is a "wasteful" sorcery. suppose a sword has a power of 10. with reinforcement, you can get a sword with power of 40. but when you project it, you only get 4 because of the "wasteful" side effect. shirou being able to project it at 9 is an incredible feat already, as he goes with all those "history, life, creation, materials, blueprint, etc, etc..." process.

so yeah. ubw takes a penalty of 1 whole rank, that's given.
off topic: @raitei: Does the name Aldous mean anything to you?
nope, it doesn't.

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:11 am
by Rikh
Raitei wrote:
BlackTornado wrote:thanks supremehyren for going back on topic. Yeah, I am also not very convinced that archer takes penalty for projection... After all, he is already a heroic spirit with the "knowledge of orthodox magic" ability (cant rmb its name). Does that not mean that he can use magic like a normal magus? Normal magi do not get penalty for casting magic, see Rin for instance.
that's not true. rin once said that gradation air, or projection magic is a "wasteful" sorcery. suppose a sword has a power of 10. with reinforcement, you can get a sword with power of 40. but when you project it, you only get 4 because of the "wasteful" side effect. shirou being able to project it at 9 is an incredible feat already, as he goes with all those "history, life, creation, materials, blueprint, etc, etc..." process.
Umm he was referring to the penalty on archer himself, not the penalty on his projections =P
Basically he is stating that archer should be able to continuously create infinite swords when supplied with infinite mana...

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:23 am
by gexer64
Rikh wrote:
Raitei wrote:
BlackTornado wrote:thanks supremehyren for going back on topic. Yeah, I am also not very convinced that archer takes penalty for projection... After all, he is already a heroic spirit with the "knowledge of orthodox magic" ability (cant rmb its name). Does that not mean that he can use magic like a normal magus? Normal magi do not get penalty for casting magic, see Rin for instance.
that's not true. rin once said that gradation air, or projection magic is a "wasteful" sorcery. suppose a sword has a power of 10. with reinforcement, you can get a sword with power of 40. but when you project it, you only get 4 because of the "wasteful" side effect. shirou being able to project it at 9 is an incredible feat already, as he goes with all those "history, life, creation, materials, blueprint, etc, etc..." process.
Umm he was referring to the penalty on archer himself, not the penalty on his projections =P
Basically he is stating that archer should be able to continuously create infinite swords when supplied with infinite mana...
Inside or outside UBW? (I think that makes a difference?)

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:26 am
by Benawi
BlackTornado wrote:Edit: @benawi: if you use up a large amount of ur mana, and if your enemy somehow survives, you will be completely vulnerable, and waiting to be picked off like a sitting duck. Not a very good idea, no? Archer, being so experienced in battles, would not commit such a mistake. He will make sure that he can get a sure kill before trying something so risky
Thats the exact point ive been trying to make this entire time. If you go by Supremes theory then any servant without a useless master(AKA shirou) would never run out of mana because they are always recieving more from their master. If that was the case u would see archer and likes constantly spamming their noble phantasms due to the fact that they will keep on getting more when that is completely not the case.

Also the only way archer would be able to cast magic as a normal magus is if his magic circuits were completely changed as well. If this was true then giving shirou archers arm in heavens feel wouldnt give such a drastic effect(archers/shirous arm holds his magic circuit which was the reason it had to be sealed off)

And lastly when in the Catacombs(?) of the church the reason archer would die if he projected sabers sword is because his body would not be able to handle the strain in the condition he was. This is suggestion that archer to will feel the effects of any projection. He just has a much higher compacity then shirou

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 4:34 am
by Raitei
gexer64 wrote:Umm he was referring to the penalty on archer himself, not the penalty on his projections =P
Basically he is stating that archer should be able to continuously create infinite swords when supplied with infinite mana...
Inside or outside UBW? (I think that makes a difference?)[/quote]tracing makes someone gar. nuff said. (read = the penalty is his body being eaten away. dark skin and white hair, those may be the results of continued tracing)

it's just... when you are getting beaten continuously, you will somehow be resistant to those blows after a certain amount of time. but it's still damaging your body nevertheless.

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 5:07 am
by gexer64
So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?

That explains Shiki's and Shirou's abnormal tolerance to pain.....

Or because the body shuts of the pain sensors when they are no longer useful. (that's why shark attack victims don't notice they were bitten until they see that half their torso is missing....)

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 6:47 am
by BlackTornado
Raitei wrote:
BlackTornado wrote:thanks supremehyren for going back on topic. Yeah, I am also not very convinced that archer takes penalty for projection... After all, he is already a heroic spirit with the "knowledge of orthodox magic" ability (cant rmb its name). Does that not mean that he can use magic like a normal magus? Normal magi do not get penalty for casting magic, see Rin for instance.
that's not true. rin once said that gradation air, or projection magic is a "wasteful" sorcery. suppose a sword has a power of 10. with reinforcement, you can get a sword with power of 40. but when you project it, you only get 4 because of the "wasteful" side effect. shirou being able to project it at 9 is an incredible feat already, as he goes with all those "history, life, creation, materials, blueprint, etc, etc..." process.

so yeah. ubw takes a penalty of 1 whole rank, that's given.
i was not referring to that but never mind...
off topic: @raitei: Does the name Aldous mean anything to you?
nope, it doesn't.
well the world is not so small after all...

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 9:47 am
by Prince6233
gexer64 wrote:So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?

That explains Shiki's and Shirou's abnormal tolerance to pain.....

Or because the body shuts of the pain sensors when they are no longer useful. (that's why shark attack victims don't notice they were bitten until they see that half their torso is missing....)
Now that was really a grotesque way to describe shirous endurance rather than complimenting his hardwork

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:22 pm
by Raitei
gexer64 wrote:So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?
I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. :wink: (oh wait. shouldn't it be "stronger"?)
Or because the body shuts of the pain sensors when they are no longer useful. (that's why shark attack victims don't notice they were bitten until they see that half their torso is missing....)
oh yeah, then why does shirou feel pain and break his arm away when his left arm is no longer there?

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:25 pm
by gexer64
Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?
I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. :wink: (oh wait. shouldn't it be "stronger"?)
Or because the body shuts of the pain sensors when they are no longer useful. (that's why shark attack victims don't notice they were bitten until they see that half their torso is missing....)
oh yeah, then why does shirou feel pain and break his arm away when his left arm is no longer there?
Your wording of your last sentence makes it kinda hard to understand. Please clarify.

And let me explain something. Pain is used by your body to say "hey you should stop what you're doing. It's bad." If pain gets in the way of your survival the body turns the pain sensors off. It's a means to survive.

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:26 pm
by BlackTornado
Raitei wrote:
gexer64 wrote:So basically if you light your self on fire enough, you'll get used to it?
I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger. :wink: (oh wait. shouldn't it be "stronger"?)
Or because the body shuts of the pain sensors when they are no longer useful. (that's why shark attack victims don't notice they were bitten until they see that half their torso is missing....)
oh yeah, then why does shirou feel pain and break his arm away when his left arm is no longer there?
joker ftw! Pain receptors warn you of danger. Soon the body will release hormones to suppress the pain when its evident that the pain can do no more good

Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:30 pm
by gexer64
BlackTornado wrote:
joker ftw! Pain receptors warn you of danger. Soon the body will release hormones to suppress the pain when its evident that the pain can do no more good
When you say joker, are you referring to me? If so you may continue to do so :D