True power of Archer (spoilers)

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Unread postby Xanathos » February 9th, 2009, 4:59 pm

Fuyuki wik on shirou's brand of projectioni:

Materialized projection through the reenactment (or understanding and tracing) of creation ideology, base core, composite materials, design technique, possession experience, and accumulation of years. Not the physical recreation of just a sword, but its soul itself, in other words.

Unlike normal projection, he recreates objects not just from scratch using a schematic diagram, but also the ideology behind its creation as well as its history and experience. Recreating the weapon as if it had a life of its own, in a sense.



He inherits the memories of the weapon. examples would be: Caliburn vs berserker and Caliburn vs gilgamesh. Caliburn vs Gilgamesh is probably the better example though.

I don't see why Shirou tracing Assassin's sword should be any different. Btw I don't think Tsubame Gaeshi can be used with a stick. I believe it needs the length and the curvature of the blade.
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Unread postby Rikh » February 9th, 2009, 6:55 pm

Xanathos wrote:Fuyuki wik on shirou's brand of projectioni:

Materialized projection through the reenactment (or understanding and tracing) of creation ideology, base core, composite materials, design technique, possession experience, and accumulation of years. Not the physical recreation of just a sword, but its soul itself, in other words.

Unlike normal projection, he recreates objects not just from scratch using a schematic diagram, but also the ideology behind its creation as well as its history and experience. Recreating the weapon as if it had a life of its own, in a sense.



He inherits the memories of the weapon. examples would be: Caliburn vs berserker and Caliburn vs gilgamesh. Caliburn vs Gilgamesh is probably the better example though.

I don't see why Shirou tracing Assassin's sword should be any different. Btw I don't think Tsubame Gaeshi can be used with a stick. I believe it needs the length and the curvature of the blade.

eh well you can debate it, although i still think Assassin's sword has no special properties, and it is just his movement technique. So he can do the same movement with a stick, just the stick might break from the force, also it will lack the ability to be dangerous or trap the opponent

Anywho, yah, since shiro could copy swordsmanship skills from tracing Caliburn, Kansho and Byakua, and several other NP's during the UBW route, then it can be assumed he can learn assassins technique

His ability to do it himself though is a question on an entire different scale, since the sword doesn't give stat buffs ;|
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 9th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Shourai wrote:He cannot download innate skills that are related to one's Divine Blood or passive skills like Charisma. Only skills that were used alongside the weapon, like when he used Caliburn, and Nine Lives. That also includes Tsubame Gaeshi. Divine Words, Divinity, Eye of The Mind(Fake) are not used with the weapon.

What this guy said. Shirou's capacity to download skills is more of a by-product of his ability to perceive everything about the weapon from its structure to its history. In Nasuverse, everything, even inanimate objects can gain memories through time. A weapon will carry memories of how it was wielded. If the wielder is a legendary hero, then gaining this memory essentially equals to gaining that hero's skill. However, as stated in the VN, copying/duplication never work perfectly in Nasuverse. So the skills Shirou copied will very likely be inferior versions. I laugh at the thought that Shirou's version of Tsubame Gaeshi does not strike simultaneously.
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Unread postby Rikh » February 10th, 2009, 10:04 pm

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Shourai wrote:He cannot download innate skills that are related to one's Divine Blood or passive skills like Charisma. Only skills that were used alongside the weapon, like when he used Caliburn, and Nine Lives. That also includes Tsubame Gaeshi. Divine Words, Divinity, Eye of The Mind(Fake) are not used with the weapon.

What this guy said. Shirou's capacity to download skills is more of a by-product of his ability to perceive everything about the weapon from its structure to its history. In Nasuverse, everything, even inanimate objects can gain memories through time. A weapon will carry memories of how it was wielded. If the wielder is a legendary hero, then gaining this memory essentially equals to gaining that hero's skill. However, as stated in the VN, copying/duplication never work perfectly in Nasuverse. So the skills Shirou copied will very likely be inferior versions. I laugh at the thought that Shirou's version of Tsubame Gaeshi does not strike simultaneously.

The fact that Assassin was not a real hero though and is a fictional one might ruin that process though :|
That sword came into existence the first time when HF5 hit, so that might not work then
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Unread postby Vhailor » February 11th, 2009, 3:43 pm

This doesn't matter to Shirou and his ability i think. I see the thing like computer and program. The world create a sword to fit Kojiro Sasaki, and this sword carries informations to serve it purpose. Shirou can read these information and reproduce the sword. Simple like that in fact.
And the sword, even if it is a trick, is much more famous than the rocky blade of Berserker

Off topic but Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?
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Unread postby Rikh » February 11th, 2009, 10:18 pm

Vhailor wrote:This doesn't matter to Shirou and his ability i think. I see the thing like computer and program. The world create a sword to fit Kojiro Sasaki, and this sword carries informations to serve it purpose. Shirou can read these information and reproduce the sword. Simple like that in fact.
And the sword, even if it is a trick, is much more famous than the rocky blade of Berserker

Off topic but Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?


well its really Hercules he copied the NP from... the rock sword is nothing special, it was only a piece of a castle formed into a sword-like object, it has no famous history. Its just since the sword was being used by Garzerker, he could copy the weight and strength of it as well as the np from herc himself
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Unread postby that one guy » February 12th, 2009, 12:22 am

Vhailor wrote:Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?


No, Assassin is simply someone who could use Tsubame Gaeshi.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 12th, 2009, 12:39 am

that one guy wrote:
Vhailor wrote:Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?


No, Assassin is simply someone who could use Tsubame Gaeshi.
Then you need to read the game again. :P Assassin is a nameless farmer who can use Tsubame Gaeshi, in addition to being the closest template to Sasaki Kojirou. That means he lived the same way, walked similar path, etc, etc... in a sense.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 12th, 2009, 3:23 am

Shourai wrote:
that one guy wrote:
Vhailor wrote:Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?


No, Assassin is simply someone who could use Tsubame Gaeshi.
Then you need to read the game again. :P Assassin is a nameless farmer who can use Tsubame Gaeshi, in addition to being the closest template to Sasaki Kojirou. That means he lived the same way, walked similar path, etc, etc... in a sense.


Not sure about living the same way and walking the same path, but I do remember Assassin mentioned that being able to use Tsubame Gaeshi was one of the reason he was chosen (the MAIN reason that he was summoned was that he had strong ties with Ryuudo and Caster summoned him--a false master naturally summons a false servant).

Basically Caster summoned Sasaki, the Grail can't find kojiro_sasaki.dll, so out comes the next best thing.
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Unread postby Xanathos » February 12th, 2009, 3:36 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:
Shourai wrote:
that one guy wrote:[quote="Vhailor"]Assassin is not Kojiro but still, he is an anonymous guy who lived a similar life isn't it?


No, Assassin is simply someone who could use Tsubame Gaeshi.
Then you need to read the game again. :P Assassin is a nameless farmer who can use Tsubame Gaeshi, in addition to being the closest template to Sasaki Kojirou. That means he lived the same way, walked similar path, etc, etc... in a sense.


Not sure about living the same way and walking the same path, but I do remember Assassin mentioned that being able to use Tsubame Gaeshi was one of the reason he was chosen (the MAIN reason that he was summoned was that he had strong ties with Ryuudo and Caster summoned him--a false master naturally summons a false servant).

Basically Caster summoned Sasaki, the Grail can't find kojiro_sasaki.dll, so out comes the next best thing.[/quote]

LOL.

Runtime error 507: Kojiro_Sasaki.dll not found. Please try reinstalling the program.

Holy Grail: Screw it we'll get the next best thing.

Rename file: farmer_dude.dll -> Kojiro_Sasaki.dll

Compile

Run
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 12th, 2009, 3:49 am

Lol, farmer_dude.dll, epic.

This gets me thinking though. The Grail essentially accesses the Throne of Heroes and also the gallery of Alaya's counterforce (e.g. Archer). So what do you think, is Assassin a next-best-thing type of Heroic Spirit like Avenger? Or an actual counterguardian just pulled out randomly because he somewhat resembles Sasaki?

I am more leaning towards the later. Even Avenger has a NP, and Assassin doesn't. Also, a random farmer who achieved no heroic deeds is not likely a true hero, so my hypothesis is that he is just drafted by Alaya because of his skills.
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Unread postby Xanathos » February 12th, 2009, 4:01 am

I always thought he was a someone who didn't actually exist cuz of caster. He was created on the spot and so didn't have a place in the throne of heroes. Or something along the lines of

Caster: I need a servant

sees a bum

Caster: Can you do a favor for me? I'll give ya twenty bucks.
Bum: Done
*Caster chants something
Bum: By the power of Greyskull! I HAVE THE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!
bam you have a kojiro!
Caster: your master is this mountain
Assassin: What is your wish master?
Mountain:.....
Assassin: Very wise my master.

I am leaning towards my first explanation. I might be wrong though.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 12th, 2009, 4:55 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Lol, farmer_dude.dll, epic.

This gets me thinking though. The Grail essentially accesses the Throne of Heroes and also the gallery of Alaya's counterforce (e.g. Archer). So what do you think, is Assassin a next-best-thing type of Heroic Spirit like Avenger? Or an actual counterguardian just pulled out randomly because he somewhat resembles Sasaki?

I am more leaning towards the later. Even Avenger has a NP, and Assassin doesn't. Also, a random farmer who achieved no heroic deeds is not likely a true hero, so my hypothesis is that he is just drafted by Alaya because of his skills.
Assassin is not a Heroic Spirit. Not in common sense. He is a wraith.

Fuyuki wrote:Wraith

亡霊 - Bourei

Human spirits. In the context of the game, the spirits that serves as the cores (candidates) of those heroic spirits that never existed as individuals; basically the "I'm not really this hero, I just look like him" sort of Servant. Generally, their name as a heroic spirit isn't their true name, which has been lost. According to the "actor" playing the "role" of Kojirou, just a ghost that hadn't made his own name known.

If a hero in a legend doesn't actually exist, then a wraith with similar abilities or one that shares the same general idea/concept/title is used as the basis for the heroic spirit or one of the many candidates for that heroic spirit. In Fate,
Hassan Sabbah is one of these. Hassan is actually a name taken on by the leaders of an organization of assassins. Each individual Hassan's own background before becoming a Hassan is lost historically and thus, there are no memories before they became Hassan. The core personality of Sasaki Kojirou is also an example; there are a number of other nameless swordsmen that bear enough similarities to the legendary Kojirou.

The word bourei more or less connotes a ghost that's still remaining in the material plane because of regret, grudges, and what not; the type that tends to haunts houses, lands, and people, like say... the ghosts in Juon. It also carries the same sort of meaning that the word "spector" would have in English; something of the past that has long since stopped existing.

Stanrobe, an Ancestor whose physical body was destroyed, is referred to as being the 1st wraith.
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Unread postby -Shiki- » February 15th, 2009, 3:31 pm

Shourai wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Lol, farmer_dude.dll, epic.

This gets me thinking though. The Grail essentially accesses the Throne of Heroes and also the gallery of Alaya's counterforce (e.g. Archer). So what do you think, is Assassin a next-best-thing type of Heroic Spirit like Avenger? Or an actual counterguardian just pulled out randomly because he somewhat resembles Sasaki?

I am more leaning towards the later. Even Avenger has a NP, and Assassin doesn't. Also, a random farmer who achieved no heroic deeds is not likely a true hero, so my hypothesis is that he is just drafted by Alaya because of his skills.
Assassin is not a Heroic Spirit. Not in common sense. He is a wraith.

Fuyuki wrote:Wraith

亡霊 - Bourei

Human spirits. In the context of the game, the spirits that serves as the cores (candidates) of those heroic spirits that never existed as individuals; basically the "I'm not really this hero, I just look like him" sort of Servant. Generally, their name as a heroic spirit isn't their true name, which has been lost. According to the "actor" playing the "role" of Kojirou, just a ghost that hadn't made his own name known.

If a hero in a legend doesn't actually exist, then a wraith with similar abilities or one that shares the same general idea/concept/title is used as the basis for the heroic spirit or one of the many candidates for that heroic spirit. In Fate,
Hassan Sabbah is one of these. Hassan is actually a name taken on by the leaders of an organization of assassins. Each individual Hassan's own background before becoming a Hassan is lost historically and thus, there are no memories before they became Hassan. The core personality of Sasaki Kojirou is also an example; there are a number of other nameless swordsmen that bear enough similarities to the legendary Kojirou.

The word bourei more or less connotes a ghost that's still remaining in the material plane because of regret, grudges, and what not; the type that tends to haunts houses, lands, and people, like say... the ghosts in Juon. It also carries the same sort of meaning that the word "spector" would have in English; something of the past that has long since stopped existing.

Stanrobe, an Ancestor whose physical body was destroyed, is referred to as being the 1st wraith.



TRUTH SHINES!!
all hail the farmer dude..not everyone can use tsubame gaeshi :lol:
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Unread postby Shourai » February 16th, 2009, 12:42 am

-Shiki- wrote:TRUTH SHINES!!
all hail the farmer dude..not everyone can use tsubame gaeshi :lol:
But Shirou can trace Tsubame Gaeshi. Nuff said.
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 16th, 2009, 6:42 am

Shourai, you still haven't convinced me though. According to the quote, when a true Heroic Spirit cannot be found, a Bourei is used to act as a substitute. This seems to be the basis of "amalgamated" heroic spirits such as True Assassin, where all the different masked individuals are the Hassan. However, this only indicates that the individual summoned is not the true hero, it does not dictate that the individual summoned is not a Heroic Spirit at all.

What I meant is that, each True Assassin summoned is still a Heroic Spirit, but just that he/she is not the true Hassan (the legend considers Hassan to be one person, which is not true). If this statement does not hold, then each individual assassin is not considered a Heroic Spirit, thus none of them are placed in the Throne of Heroes. Saying the individual assassins are just wandering wraiths does not make much sense to me.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 16th, 2009, 7:51 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Shourai, you still haven't convinced me though. According to the quote, when a true Heroic Spirit cannot be found, a Bourei is used to act as a substitute. This seems to be the basis of "amalgamated" heroic spirits such as True Assassin, where all the different masked individuals are the Hassan. However, this only indicates that the individual summoned is not the true hero, it does not dictate that the individual summoned is not a Heroic Spirit at all.

What I meant is that, each True Assassin summoned is still a Heroic Spirit, but just that he/she is not the true Hassan (the legend considers Hassan to be one person, which is not true). If this statement does not hold, then each individual assassin is not considered a Heroic Spirit, thus none of them are placed in the Throne of Heroes. Saying the individual assassins are just wandering wraiths does not make much sense to me.
But they ARE wraiths. Assassin is the only class which is composed of wraiths instead of true Eirei. True Heroic Spirits will NOT be summoned as someone else, or in this sense, as an actor to fill the role, as they already have their identities firmly rooted on the legend.

Fuyuki wrote:If a hero in a legend doesn't actually exist, then a wraith with similar abilities or one that shares the same general idea/concept/title is used as the basis for the heroic spirit or one of the many candidates for that heroic spirit.


Since all the 19 individuals who referred themselves as "Hassan-i-Sabbah" have discarded their former identities as a human (and hero, in a sense) by adopting the name "Hassan", they were no longer considered as Heroic Spirits. Or at least, genuine Heroic Spirits. They are now just "actors" who play the role of "Old Man of The Mountain".

In the case that there is no certain historical truth that a hero does exist in the past, there will be just "role" in the Throne of Heroes. And the person summoned to fill that "role" of Heroic Spirit is a wraith without identity, whose life was closest to or mostly resembled the "role" in question.
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Unread postby supremehyren » February 18th, 2009, 3:13 am

Shourai wrote:
-Shiki- wrote:TRUTH SHINES!!
all hail the farmer dude..not everyone can use tsubame gaeshi :lol:
But Shirou can trace Tsubame Gaeshi. Nuff said.


Well, I suppose he can trace Monohoshizao... but can he copy TG like he did Nine Lives? Nine Lives is a noble phantasm itself, although expressed as an skill instead of a weapon(with the base of 'The Shooting Hundred Heads') . However, Tsubame Gaeshi is simply a skill that approaches a NP in power, while not actually being a NP itself. Although Shirou can copy the abilities of the wielder of a weapon he reproduces, can he do so with something his body can't physically do?
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Unread postby Keeper of Gil's Vault » February 18th, 2009, 3:32 am

Shourai wrote:
Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Shourai, you still haven't convinced me though. According to the quote, when a true Heroic Spirit cannot be found, a Bourei is used to act as a substitute. This seems to be the basis of "amalgamated" heroic spirits such as True Assassin, where all the different masked individuals are the Hassan. However, this only indicates that the individual summoned is not the true hero, it does not dictate that the individual summoned is not a Heroic Spirit at all.

What I meant is that, each True Assassin summoned is still a Heroic Spirit, but just that he/she is not the true Hassan (the legend considers Hassan to be one person, which is not true). If this statement does not hold, then each individual assassin is not considered a Heroic Spirit, thus none of them are placed in the Throne of Heroes. Saying the individual assassins are just wandering wraiths does not make much sense to me.
But they ARE wraiths. Assassin is the only class which is composed of wraiths instead of true Eirei. True Heroic Spirits will NOT be summoned as someone else, or in this sense, as an actor to fill the role, as they already have their identities firmly rooted on the legend.

Fuyuki wrote:If a hero in a legend doesn't actually exist, then a wraith with similar abilities or one that shares the same general idea/concept/title is used as the basis for the heroic spirit or one of the many candidates for that heroic spirit.


Since all the 19 individuals who referred themselves as "Hassan-i-Sabbah" have discarded their former identities as a human (and hero, in a sense) by adopting the name "Hassan", they were no longer considered as Heroic Spirits. Or at least, genuine Heroic Spirits. They are now just "actors" who play the role of "Old Man of The Mountain".

In the case that there is no certain historical truth that a hero does exist in the past, there will be just "role" in the Throne of Heroes. And the person summoned to fill that "role" of Heroic Spirit is a wraith without identity, whose life was closest to or mostly resembled the "role" in question.


Being an "actor" does not prevent the said individual from obtaining the status of a Heroic Spirit. Avenger is a substitute for Angra Mainyu, but he is still treated as a Heroic Spirit (I think Ilya said this in Heaven's Feel, bearer of all the world's evil), more specifically, an anti-hero. All Hassans are considered anti-heroes as well. Anti-heroes are still genuine Heroic Spirits, although obtaining the status through a different means.

@supremehyren,
Apparently he can. Archer can modify his body through reinforcement spells. Also, when executing Nine Lives, Shirou traced the strength of Berserker (remind you, even Archer does not have A+ strength) in order to wield the axe at supersonic speed. I am not sure how strength can be traced, and I cannot produce an explanation, but still the scene shows Shirou and Archer can temporarily break their status limitations to perform a technique.
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Unread postby Shourai » February 18th, 2009, 4:35 am

Keeper of Gil's Vault wrote:Being an "actor" does not prevent the said individual from obtaining the status of a Heroic Spirit. Avenger is a substitute for Angra Mainyu, but he is still treated as a Heroic Spirit (I think Ilya said this in Heaven's Feel, bearer of all the world's evil), more specifically, an anti-hero. All Hassans are considered anti-heroes as well. Anti-heroes are still genuine Heroic Spirits, although obtaining the status through a different means.
... What? Avenger is the scapegoat boy. The boy is Angra Mainyu. Angra Mainyu is the boy. Angra Mainyu (as well as his legends) was born through the boy. Without the boy that was used as the scapegoat for all evil, there is no Angra Mainyu. The boy was a scapegoat for this world's evil, not substitute for Angra Mainyu. Two different things.

The case was completely different for Kojirou Sasaki and Hassan-i-Sabbah. Even if the farmer never existed, the "Kojirou Sasaki" still exists in humanity's consciousness. Even if one Hassan was absent, or in other words, never existed, Hassan-i-Sabbah would still exist inside humanity.

tl;dr : The farmer was considered as Kojirou Sasaki. But the farmer was NOT Kojirou Sasaki. Kojirou Sasaki's existence was not born from the farmer. The boy is Angra Mainyu. Angra Mainyu was born from the boy.

Being an "actor" means you play someone's role, that you are NOT that someone. And thus you are not a Heroic Spirit. You are a Wraith. I think the wiki cleared this enough.
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